It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
Gundato: I am not going to suddenly offer to "love EA, long time", but don't complain when they do what everyone was asking for. While listening to the community has been bad in the past (see Tribes 2's ninety million patches :p), it shouldn't be something that should cause such animosity.

They're not doing what everyone is asking for.
They keep the DRM and online activation mechanism intact.
You can undo an activation, nothing more, nothing less.
If they would be doing what everyone is asking for, they would be getting rid of SecuROM alltogether.
As for patches, they are a necessity these days as games get more and more complex and contain more and more code.
However descent testing can prevent a lot of bugs.
Unfortunately these days a deadline and a given release date are more important than releasing a stable bug free game.
Post edited April 01, 2009 by HertogJan
avatar
Gundato: I am not going to suddenly offer to "love EA, long time", but don't complain when they do what everyone was asking for. While listening to the community has been bad in the past (see Tribes 2's ninety million patches :p), it shouldn't be something that should cause such animosity.
avatar
HertogJan: They're not doing what everyone is asking for.
They keep the DRM and online activation mechanism intact.
You can undo an activation, nothing more, nothing less.
If they would be doing what everyone is asking for, they would be getting rid of SecuROM alltogether.

I am no expert, but I wouldn't be surprised if Securom themselves don't want EA to remove the DRM entirely. Sure the "haxx0rzerz" already know how to bypass it, but there is a difference between figuring out how to remove it, and having an actual tutorial on how to do it. Plus, isn't the activation crap actually linked to the installer? So that could cause more problems.
Either way, this allows everyone to uninstall and reinstall to their heart's content. And, from my time at the MEPC forums (before I felt the urge to gouge my eyes out), that was one of the primary arguments. Of course, every argument will now change back to "Oh mah gawdz! I might not have internet at home when I want to install this", but it is a start.
Seriously, bitch about the stuff EA does that is actually bad. Don't bitch when they do something good(-ish).
It's a welcome change, but it's definitely not going to change my outlook on EA much.
avatar
Hammerfall: Now if you hate EA because of the whole DRM thing, then that is absolutley fair. But i just find it odd that people always blame the publisher and not the actual developer of games.

Because publishers so regularly put out unfinished games despite developer's wishes that it's standard for games to require patches, sometimes huge ones, even on release day, have missing features, etc., leading people to assume that since publishers can be so destructive, they always are.
avatar
Gundato: Seriously, bitch about the stuff EA does that is actually bad. Don't bitch when they do something good(-ish).

We're only complaining because they could do "better".
I, for one, thank them for doing something "good(-ish)".
Post edited April 01, 2009 by JonhMan
It's a start, I'll give them that.
EA, you are still going to need to do a lot to improve your reputation.
avatar
JudasIscariot: They're not helping, merely responding to all the flak concerning limited activations and DRM that may or may not comprimise one's computer. If the consumers hadn't raised a stink about the aforementioned issues, we wouldn't have the deactivation tools to begin with. IMHO, they deserve all the flak they get for their actions/policies.
avatar
Gundato: OH MAH GAWD!!! A publisher is listening to the community? Those bastards! Let's lynch them! Seriously, you are bitching because EA is clearly admitting that the world is not yet ready for that kind of DRM, and that they are trying to make things right? Bitch about them for stuff that is actually bad, otherwise you just sound like a crazy with a grudge (although, to be fair, every "real" gamer has a grudge against EA :p).
I am not going to suddenly offer to "love EA, long time", but don't complain when they do what everyone was asking for. While listening to the community has been bad in the past (see Tribes 2's ninety million patches :p), it shouldn't be something that should cause such animosity.

Just curious. When will the world be ready for this kind of crap ? I'm guessing around the same time Skynet becomes self aware, right?
But yes, let's give EA a break.
I'm sure this tool will be very usefull for the (insert number here. Must be 1.000.000 +) people who downloaded pirated versions of Spims and the watchamacallit cuttie bits. Oh, wait...
avatar
Gundato: OH MAH GAWD!!! A publisher is listening to the community? Those bastards! Let's lynch them! Seriously, you are bitching because EA is clearly admitting that the world is not yet ready for that kind of DRM, and that they are trying to make things right? Bitch about them for stuff that is actually bad, otherwise you just sound like a crazy with a grudge (although, to be fair, every "real" gamer has a grudge against EA :p).
I am not going to suddenly offer to "love EA, long time", but don't complain when they do what everyone was asking for. While listening to the community has been bad in the past (see Tribes 2's ninety million patches :p), it shouldn't be something that should cause such animosity.
avatar
Namur: Just curious. When will the world be ready for this kind of crap ? I'm guessing around the same time Skynet becomes self aware, right?
But yes, let's give EA a break.
I'm sure this tool will be very usefull for the (insert number here. Must be 1.000.000 +) people who downloaded pirated versions of Spims and the watchamacallit cuttie bits. Oh, wait...

I am not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, since I don't even know what you are babbling about. This (apparently) doesn't remove the copy-protection (that is what everyone is saying EA should have done. Right before giving everyone a 200% refund :p), it just restores one of your activations. That means that, as long as you don't have to do too many emergency reformats, you don't have to worry about calling the toll free hotline to reset your key. I for one am happy we finally have this for Mass Effect.
You know the funny thing: I bet people acted the exact same way when we first lost the ability to (easily) copy our floppies (then they realized they just had to put some tape over the hole :p). Then when we couldn't play off of our burned copies of our discs (then they realized they just had to download a crack). Hell, just a few years ago, people actually were BEGGING for (the older version of) Securom instead of Starforce (that one actually lasted for a while). Complaints about DRM are as old as DRM itself. Hell, I am sure people complained when they had to open their manual before playing a game (to find out that the word "loading" is page 5, paragraph 4, word 4 in the Aladdin manual :p) or when they had to enter those (accursed) serial numbers (fun fact, I actually repurchased OFP here just because I hate entering serial numbers that much).
And take a look at iTunes. Borderline obscene DRM is not that hard for people to stomach. All we can hope for is that stuff like Steam becomes the primary method of DRM, as opposed to the activation system.
Either that, or wear a tinfoil hat and keep screaming that the Gov'ment and them corporatons is taking all our freedoms and that a poorly written book with a 4-digit title (that reads more like a political speech than a story) is the future.
Post edited April 01, 2009 by Gundato
avatar
Gundato: Wow. EA actually tries to help the community (and admit they made a mistake), and what happens? They repeatedly get called "fucktards".

You really think they did this to "help the community"? They're doing this because their bottom line got bitch-slapped over the direction they were going with DRM, so now they're trying to rebuild their reputation so that their sales no longer take a beating because of it being in the gutter. This is simply a "please don't hate us" move. Now, it should be recognized that this is a small step in the right direction, but in the same breath it should also be noted that the DRM they've used lately is an abomination, their decision to use it in the first place was a dick move, and their decision to keep it implemented (instead of patching it out and shipping all new versions without it) is a mistake that they just keep making. It's simply a matter of making sure they get the proper recognition for all the things they do.
avatar
Gundato: I am no expert, but I wouldn't be surprised if Securom themselves don't want EA to remove the DRM entirely.

If EA signed a contract with Securom saying they wouldn't ever patch out the DRM then that was a stupid decision on EA's part and they deserve to get flak over it. If there's no such contractual term then the folks at Securom get no say in the matter.
avatar
Gundato: Sure the "haxx0rzerz" already know how to bypass it, but there is a difference between figuring out how to remove it, and having an actual tutorial on how to do it.

I seriously doubt reverse engineering a patch for a specific game and then turning it into a general method of Securom removal would be easier than figuring out how to just remove Securom from the executable to begin with. Hell, working cracks typically appear within days of a game being released; it's already pretty damn easy for the hacker groups to strip off the DRM.
avatar
Gundato: Either way, this allows everyone to uninstall and reinstall to their heart's content.

At least until EA simply decide to shut off their activation servers. Until EA fully remove the activation requirement people who "bought" the game still need to go to EA, hat in hand, every time they want to install their "purchase".
avatar
Gundato: And take a look at iTunes. Borderline obscene DRM is not that hard for people to stomach.

Only until they get bit by it. I'm guessing the folks who got burned by the Yahoo Music store and MSN Music store aren't going to be too keen on buying DRM encumbered music again anytime soon.
avatar
Gundato: All we can hope for is that stuff like Steam becomes the primary method of DRM, as opposed to the activation system.

That's the best you can think of to hope for? I'd personally aim a bit higher if I were you. In fact there's this group that's started selling older games with, get this, absolutely no DRM whatsoever. You buy a game and it's yours, no strings attached. Maybe you've heard of them? ;) From what I can see DRM has pretty much peaked. Music DRM peaked a while ago when people started getting burned and has now been on the decline for at least 2 years. And it's looking like video game DRM might have peaked with EA's shenanigans (I'm actually rather grateful they pissed off so many people), and is now moving to more permissive DRM and eventually no DRM. So don't limit yourself to simply hoping for an obfuscated rental service, hope for (and work towards) a system where we actually own and control the products we buy.
avatar
Gundato: Either that, or wear a tinfoil hat and keep screaming that the Gov'ment and them corporatons is taking all our freedoms and that a poorly written book with a 4-digit title (that reads more like a political speech than a story) is the future.

Personally I'd consider The Right to Read by Stallman to be a bit more apropos given our particular topic of discussion.
avatar
Hammerfall: Now if you hate EA because of the whole DRM thing, then that is absolutley fair. But i just find it odd that people always blame the publisher and not the actual developer of games.
avatar
Blarg: Because publishers so regularly put out unfinished games despite developer's wishes that it's standard for games to require patches, sometimes huge ones, even on release day, have missing features, etc., leading people to assume that since publishers can be so destructive, they always are.

Yeah, but Publishers make little contribution to say in gameplay, story, controls, dialogue, etc. except for the fact they are funding those aspects of the game. Hellgate London didn't fail just because of bugs. Take away the bugs and its still a bad game at its core. Everybody i know who complained about Warhammer Online complained about bad gameplay/rvr and poor animations. And Warhammer Online was delayed a plethroa of times. Spore was delayed a ton of times, had little bugs, and was considered pretty much a failure among more mature gamers.
Then we got games like Mass Effect, Battlefield series, and Crysis (The 3 EA titles on my computer) that can be considered by most gamers to be quality titles even with bugs intact. Do you think EA contributed to those title's successes as much as they contributed to the bad title's failures? I don't. I give 99 percent credit to Bioware, Dice, and Crytek.
And those are just newer EA published titles. The same could be said for alot of other Publishers and games. Add in the fact that we got guys like Gabe Newell and John Carmack and the guys at Bioware always telling the skeptics that EA has actually done more good for the company then bad. Do you think they are lying for fun?
Yes, EA has done some crazy-bad stuff in it's past but grow up. EA is a very different comany then it used to be.
avatar
Namur: Just curious. When will the world be ready for this kind of crap ? I'm guessing around the same time Skynet becomes self aware, right?
But yes, let's give EA a break.
I'm sure this tool will be very usefull for the (insert number here. Must be 1.000.000 +) people who downloaded pirated versions of Spims and the watchamacallit cuttie bits. Oh, wait...
avatar
Gundato: I am not sure if you were being sarcastic or not, since I don't even know what you are babbling about. This (apparently) doesn't remove the copy-protection (that is what everyone is saying EA should have done. Right before giving everyone a 200% refund :p), it just restores one of your activations. That means that, as long as you don't have to do too many emergency reformats, you don't have to worry about calling the toll free hotline to reset your key. I for one am happy we finally have this for Mass Effect.
You know the funny thing: I bet people acted the exact same way when we first lost the ability to (easily) copy our floppies (then they realized they just had to put some tape over the hole :p). Then when we couldn't play off of our burned copies of our discs (then they realized they just had to download a crack). Hell, just a few years ago, people actually were BEGGING for (the older version of) Securom instead of Starforce (that one actually lasted for a while). Complaints about DRM are as old as DRM itself. Hell, I am sure people complained when they had to open their manual before playing a game (to find out that the word "loading" is page 5, paragraph 4, word 4 in the Aladdin manual :p) or when they had to enter those (accursed) serial numbers (fun fact, I actually repurchased OFP here just because I hate entering serial numbers that much).
And take a look at iTunes. Borderline obscene DRM is not that hard for people to stomach. All we can hope for is that stuff like Steam becomes the primary method of DRM, as opposed to the activation system.
Either that, or wear a tinfoil hat and keep screaming that the Gov'ment and them corporatons is taking all our freedoms and that a poorly written book with a 4-digit title (that reads more like a political speech than a story) is the future.

Well if it's the Spims thing that got you confused, what would you call a Spore game made for the Sims crowd ? :)
Whatever DRM iTunes has in place, there's no way it even comes close to this.
Not only their game (EA's) installs SecuRom on my system without any kind of input from me, the damn thing is left behind even after unistalling the game ?
And on top of that, i now have to carefully plan my HD formats and hardware upgrades on my system, and pray that my mobo doesn't fry, before having to beg someone on the other end of the phone for an additional activation? Does any of this qualify as loosing some of our freedoms?
And when i finally give up on the game because i don't feel like being abused anymore, who is going to pick up the tech's tab to have SecuRom removed from my PC because i don't know how to do it? EA? Should i even have to worry about learning how to remove software from my system that was installed without my knowledge?
And this is the crap You and Me, paying customers, have to deal with.
But all the people who illegally got the game from the web get a hassle free ride. They won't be needing this tool.
Now with the public outcry, bad publicity, bad ratings and law suits they're giving us a tool to restore one activation? Gee, thanks alot...
This isn't EA listening to the community. This is EA worried about money and public perception of their way of doing business.
I'm happy that the tool will help you with ME (i really mean it), but don't give these guys any slack or they'll be back to 'full ahead' mode in no time. It's just their nature.
In the grand scheme of things, this tool is not a good thing. It's a tool that no one should ever need if EA didn't presume they could abuse their customers at will.
The tool won't help me because i'll never install their games (that i purchased) again. To me, this is just not good enough. And regardless of how many 'tools' they throw my way, i'm not changing my views on them unless there's a dramatic change in the way they treat paying customers, like You and Me, and this isn't it.
I don't know about the world, but i'll never be ready for this kind of treatment.
Edit: bad spelling.
Post edited April 02, 2009 by Namur
If we give them "some slack" they'll just get lazy. The mere fact is that we cannot excuse them, and only by putting pressure on them can we make them improve themselves. While the publishers don't have much to say about how the games are suppose to be, they can force releases, it's usually also they that decides DRM and all that crap, often to protect investors and similar. It's all about money, which is OK, since it basically is a business, but when people goes down to a level where they are OK with flawed products, they will continue to be flawed.
The thing is, a step in the right direction is all fine and dandy, but it shouldn't stop there. Pressure shouldn't be lessened in any way, and slack should never be given until demands are met, in this case longer development time and the complete annihilation of draconic DRM Schemes. The last EA product I bought was Crysis Warhead on Steam. It came with limited activation, which I did not think would be in that version. When I noticed it boiled over for me, and I haven't as much as considered to buy anything from EA since, even with these revoke tools, because of all the crap that could occur with the drivers for Securom bullshit. And I will continue to refrain form buying any of their games until they can get their fucktarded heads out of their asses, and patch the shit out of the games, hopefully with some proper game fixes as well.
Namur, sheepdragon: Amen, guys. Preach it.
Yeah, I can't be arsed to do all the multi-quoting. So Phoenix and Namur, you two are big boys, you can figure out which ones refer to which post :p
Phoenix: Do you honestly think their motivations for helping the community matter? Epic released the Titan Pack for UT3. Why? Because they sold a piece of crap that even the hardcore fans of the series had trouble defending. Does that change the fact that it breathed new life into the game and actually made it worth playing (to an extent)? Valve release massive content packs on a regular basis: They aren't doing that because they love their incredibly foul mouthed community. They are doing it to make sales. And it works. But does that mean they are pure evil?
As for the activation server issue: What if GoG shuts down? We can't download our games anymore. What if Steam dies? We can't activate our games anymore (outside of using a crack). Sure GoG has the advantage of letting us download everything and archive it, but do you really think that more than a few people are going to archive everything? And, if/when it does go down, guess what? All these beautifully packed installers are going to be put up somewhere else as "abandonware", thus rendering the point moot.
Hell, you could even argue this: What if Microsoft falls apart? How will we activate our Windows? Windows uses basically the same activation model. And it is a lot more tedious to crack.
As for the "GoG doesn't need DRM!" argument: I don't want to get into this one, since it happens in every other thread regarding Steam. But let's just put it this way: When my cousin moved back to New York, he sold his car by parking it on the side of the road and taping a sign up in the window that said it was for sale, the asking price, and who to call. And that worked. But I don't see Ford getting rid of all the car dealerships and just clogging up the shoulder on I-95 any time soon :p. Would it be great if they did? Maybe. But it ain't going to happen, so let's stick to the real world.
Namur: It was more on you arguing that this does nothing to help pirates. You are completely right: This does absolutely nothing to help pirates. But it helps the paying customers. And frankly, I care more about that. In fact, I would be kind of pissed off if EA went out of their way to help the pirates.
Would I prefer the DRM to be patched out? Hell yes. That is actually my favorite model for new releases (after the first month or two, DRM and need for CD get patched out), but I also understand why it isn't more popular (games like X2 and the X3s have a very niche market. We tend to buy the game at release, and then nobody else touches it. EA is still turning a profit on Battlefield 1942).
And actually, the DRM DID hinder pirates. For the first week or two after Mass Effect was released, there were no (properly) working cracks. It is just that people forget this, since Spore was so pathetic (people had figured out how to bypass the activations by then :p).
Both of you: As for the "iTunes and music DRM is bad too" argument: I fully agree. That is why I buy all my music from Amazon (or the artists' websites) these days. But that doesn't change the fact that iTunes is insanely popular (probably for the "i" as opposed to the DRM or lower quality music, but whatever). And while music DRM is (sort of) getting phased out (if you pay more), it still shows that the world at large is quite willing to deal with DRM.
Namur: As for your argument about Securom staying around: Slight problem with that. You are taking the argument of the old granny (incapable of googling or running a simple uninstaller), but your argument also hinges upon you knowing that the drivers are still there, and actually caring. How do you find out it doesn't remove it? Either by looking around and finding it (and, if you can look through your registry, you can google for the uninstaller), or reading an article on the internet (which will probably have a link to the uninstaller). Same deal with Starforce (and the same undocumented horror stories :p)
Should the uninstaller remove the driver? Probably, although I can see why they might not want to. If there is one thing we should all know, it is that not all developers follow the "rules" of coding (otherwise, we wouldn't see the point in paying 5 or 10 bucks for a couple of great guys to deal with the hassles of incompatibilities on "abandonware" for us :p). So the chance of uninstalling an important driver for another product (and thus, pissing off a bunch of people) is high. And then, we would all be bitching (Trust me, I would join you guys on this one :p) that The Sims 8248242 (a game I don't even own :p) could potentially make Mass Effect 4 not work.
As for the argument of "we shouldn't have needed this in the first place". I fully agree. We also shouldn't need cops to patrol our neighborhoods to (attempt to) intimidate drug dealers (even though I regularly see cops buying drugs from those guys...). Does that mean I don't appreciate the fact that the police is (officially) trying to stop crime?
Seriously, sure it isn't what we wanted from EA. But it is something, and we SHOULD be thankful for that. Because if you catch the same flak for helping the community that you do for hindering it, why should you bother ever helping?
Again, don't think I am fully condoning what they do and did. But I am a firm believer in not bitching about the good things (and being vindictive about the bad things).
I archive everything I purchase off Steam and GOG, right down to the additional content. So count me as part of the three people who do that.