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wpegg: Speedball 2 was fine with a keyboard. That was way back when controllers for the PC really weren't so commonplace, and I kicked Super Nashwan's ass fine without.
You win a trophy for hard mode.
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wpegg: Tie fighter as well.
Bollocks. You might have played it and finished it with KB&M as I did but it was no where near as enjoyable with a flight stick.
Post edited June 18, 2011 by Delixe
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Delixe: Well ok then something closer to home. TIE Figher on a KB&M or Wing Commander Privateer.
Played Wing Commander Privateer with a keyboard and mouse. Tried it with a joystick at one point, but liked the mouse better. Never played Tie Fighter, but I did play just about every Wing Commander game (I may have never played WC2 or WC3) this way. *shrug*
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Delixe: Bollocks. You might have played it and finished it with KB&M as I did but it was no where near as enjoyable with a flight stick.
You picked some bad examples. Speedball 2 had too few controls, and was sufficiently simple that playing on either keyboard or pad was the same. Tie Fighter was sufficiently complicated that I find a gamepad a frustration. I need my keyboard as well, and back when I just had that and was used to it, it was quicker (when I have replayed it's been on gamepad). The problem is that there aren't enough options on a gamepad or joystick. If I want to jump to max shields and laser charge, I do Shift F9, Shift F10. not so easy witha gamepad. All those targetting options, no, just cycle through slowly. do I have match speed mapped as a button, when I've only got a few to spare? It's useful, but so are so many more.

overall when I was keyboard savvy with it (and about 10 yrs old) I was way better.
Post edited June 18, 2011 by wpegg
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wpegg: overall when I was keyboard savvy with it (and about 10 yrs old) I was way better.
Obviously with TIE Fighter you need Joystick and Keyboard.
I think itts how you were grow up with if you are used to keyboard mouse then its easier then if you always played with a controller.
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hercufles: I think itts how you were grow up with if you are used to keyboard mouse then its easier then if you always played with a controller.
Pretty much what I was trying to say with the 'just a preference thing'.

However, I do have an example that supports Delixe's claims. I played Assassin's Creed on the PC and Assassin's Creed 2 on the PS3 (because I didn't want that horrible UBI-DRM for the PC). I am glad I did, because the gamepad WAS much better than the convoluted KBM scheme on the PC.

However, I did the same thing with Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 (ME on PC, ME2 on PS3), and I don't think either input method was a clear winner. At least not for game-play.

Generally, if it is a multi-platform distribution, I make the PC Vs Console decision based on how I want to play the game; PC for mouse, PS3 for game-pad.

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Slightly off topic, but Delixe brought up the XBox 360 controller a few times. I hate that thing, but I love the PS3 dual-shok. It is entirely because of the d-pad/thumbstick arrangement. I like symmetry, and the XBox controller annoys me because it isn't symmetrical like the PS3 controller.
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hercufles: I think itts how you were grow up with if you are used to keyboard mouse then its easier then if you always played with a controller.
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Krypsyn: Pretty much what I was trying to say with the 'just a preference thing'.

However, I do have an example that supports Delixe's claims. I played Assassin's Creed on the PC and Assassin's Creed 2 on the PS3 (because I didn't want that horrible UBI-DRM for the PC). I am glad I did, because the gamepad WAS much better than the convoluted KBM scheme on the PC.

However, I did the same thing with Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 (ME on PC, ME2 on PS3), and I don't think either input method was a clear winner. At least not for game-play.

Generally, if it is a multi-platform distribution, I make the PC Vs Console decision based on how I want to play the game; PC for mouse, PS3 for game-pad.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Slightly off topic, but Delixe brought up the XBox 360 controller a few times. I hate that thing, but I love the PS3 dual-shok. It is entirely because of the d-pad/thumbstick arrangement. I like symmetry, and the XBox controller annoys me because it isn't symmetrical like the PS3 controller.
thats a preference as well it depends if you are a ps 3 user or xbox 360, I had both and i must say the ps 3 feels good but i have trouble with fps games, i think it was easier to aim with the 360 but what i said ealier no controller could beat mouse and keyboard if it comes to fps games.
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Krypsyn: Generally, if it is a multi-platform distribution, I make the PC Vs Console decision based on how I want to play the game; PC for mouse, PS3 for game-pad.
GAMEPADS WORK ON THE PC OMG! #SOFRUSTRATED

Anyway...
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Krypsyn: Slightly off topic, but Delixe brought up the XBox 360 controller a few times. I hate that thing, but I love the PS3 dual-shok. It is entirely because of the d-pad/thumbstick arrangement. I like symmetry, and the XBox controller annoys me because it isn't symmetrical like the PS3 controller.
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hercufles: thats a preference as well it depends if you are a ps 3 user or xbox 360, I had both and i must say the ps 3 feels good but i have trouble with fps games, i think it was easier to aim with the 360 but what i said ealier no controller could beat mouse and keyboard if it comes to fps games.
Yeah, it is. What is funny though, is that I am so old school about it, I actually use the d-pad whenever I can rather than the left thumbstick. Most cames now map different commands to both, but if I can use the D-pad as directional control, I invariably do. so, it isn't the position that is bad for me, it is entirely that it doesn't LOOK symmetrical. It is silly, I admit it, but it is how I am.

also, a counter-counterexample for Delixe; one where the PC/Mouse is better than a gamepad:

Dragon Age: Origins. I played it on the PC, and I watched a friend play it briefly on a console. I honestly wouldn't have finished the game (or at least not played through it 3 times) if I had to work through battles with the gamepad. It would, I think, be tantamount to trying to play through Baldur's Gate with a gamepad. It can be done, but with significantly less finesse or ease.
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Delixe: "It's 2011, buy a fucking joypad."
Does it come with different flavors?
Post edited June 18, 2011 by KavazovAngel
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Krypsyn: also, a counter-counterexample for Delixe; one where the PC/Mouse is better than a gamepad:

Dragon Age: Origins.
Bad example. DA:O was designed for the PC. DA2 was designed for the 360.
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Delixe: "It's 2011, buy a fucking joypad."
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KavazovAngel: Does it come with different flavors?
Yes, Razer Onza for example.
Post edited June 18, 2011 by Delixe
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hercufles: thats a preference as well it depends if you are a ps 3 user or xbox 360, I had both and i must say the ps 3 feels good but i have trouble with fps games, i think it was easier to aim with the 360 but what i said ealier no controller could beat mouse and keyboard if it comes to fps games.
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Krypsyn: Yeah, it is. What is funny though, is that I am so old school about it, I actually use the d-pad whenever I can rather than the left thumbstick. Most cames now map different commands to both, but if I can use the D-pad as directional control, I invariably do. so, it isn't the position that is bad for me, it is entirely that it doesn't LOOK symmetrical. It is silly, I admit it, but it is how I am.

also, a counter-counterexample for Delixe; one where the PC/Mouse is better than a gamepad:

Dragon Age: Origins. I played it on the PC, and I watched a friend play it briefly on a console. I honestly wouldn't have finished the game (or at least not played through it 3 times) if I had to work through battles with the gamepad. It would, I think, be tantamount to trying to play through Baldur's Gate with a gamepad. It can be done, but with significantly less finesse or ease.
well most reviewers said that the pc version was supiriour one. Dragon age wasnt the control the only difrence, the pc version you could zoom out and it needed more tactic. Thats why people hated da 2 as well because it was all streamlined to play with a controller. Wich i cant tell since i never played it.
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Krypsyn: Generally, if it is a multi-platform distribution, I make the PC Vs Console decision based on how I want to play the game; PC for mouse, PS3 for game-pad.
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StingingVelvet: GAMEPADS WORK ON THE PC OMG! #SOFRUSTRATED

Anyway...
Right. But, usually, I buy games that I want to play with a keyboard and mouse for the PC, then I buy everything else for the console. So, at least until this point, there has been zero reason for me to buy a gamepad for PC.

However, if a game game out that was better for a gamepad, but that had really nifty modding tools I wanted to take advatage of, then I would probably buy a gamepad for my PC. I don't think this is very likely though, since the more console oriented a game becomes, the less mod-tools become available (supply/demand type thing).

Fallout 3 and Fallout: New Vegas come pretty close, but I would still rather use a mouse and keyboard for them. If they ever become equal or better with a gamepad, it will be a tough choice (couch beats computer chair, if gameplay is equivalent). If those hypothetical games are based on the same engine, I don't want to get anywhere near them with a console. I have had to use console line commands (AKA cheats) several times in Fallout: New Vegas to correct bugs (once reset a quest trigger that would fire, once to noclip after getting stuck on the architecture, and once to reset Traits that had randomly decided not to work). Console commands can't be accessed on a console (kinda amusing, from a semantic standpoint).
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Krypsyn: also, a counter-counterexample for Delixe; one where the PC/Mouse is better than a gamepad:

Dragon Age: Origins.
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Delixe: Bad example. DA:O was designed for the PC. DA2 was designed for the 360.
How is that a bad example? I thought we were just talking about games in general. You brought up Diablo 2 earlier, that was mainly a PC title when it came out. Same with TIE Fighter and the Wing Commander games, AFAIK.

Regardless, I never played DA2. The reviews were awful, I never even played the demo I downloaded on my PS3. I think it is still there...
Post edited June 18, 2011 by Krypsyn
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Krypsyn: How is that a bad example?
The game was designed to be played with KB&M. That's why the console versions were awful.
Post edited June 18, 2011 by Delixe
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Krypsyn: Right. But, usually, I buy games that I want to play with a keyboard and mouse for the PC, then I buy everything else for the console. So, at least until this point, there has been zero reason for me to buy a gamepad for PC.

However, if a game game out that was better for a gamepad, but that had really nifty modding tools I wanted to take advatage of, then I would probably buy a gamepad for my PC. I don't think this is very likely though, since the more console oriented a game becomes, the less mod-tools become available (supply/demand type thing).
If you're a PC gamer though why not buy "console games" for the PC and use a controller with them in order to enjoy better graphics and framerates? Or to be able to tweak the experience even outside of mods (for example turning off blur)?