that and maybe he has had only good luck so far.

The great thing about the old days was it was more like buying other merchandise. You give someone some money, they give you what they were selling, and you part ways to go on about your business. This is what I want, but now there are strings attached. Often times so many of them you cant help but over look a few and you can't part ways because there is the guy that sold you the thing and he won't stop watching how you are using it. Its all very one sided and just because many people haven't had problems, it doesn't mean they won't. Crazy things happen when companies go under and the new owners don't always honor the old ways. All this on-line activation stuff is still so new we haven't gotten a good look at what all could happen once companies start folding.

Some people say they will release fixes but I don't know. Some places have done things after going under but not everyone is going to be keen of working for free even if they are legally allowed to.

That angle I haven't really decided where I stand on. On one hand it seems reasonable to crack a game or strip the DRM off of something you paid for, but its technically not legal, which means your still opening yourself up to some element of risk by doing it. Granted the risk is likely small enough that it amounts to be paranoid.

For me, the DRM definitely changes my decision to purchase a game. This is not a hard rule by any means, but I have noticed my pattern seems to be full price for DRM free, $30ish for SecuROM games (with deactivation tools), and less than $10 if it forces Steamworks. If it involves Ubisoft DRM or TAGES, then $0. I saw Assassin's Creed 2 for less than $10 a few days ago on a store shelf, but I could not even buy it at that price.

The more companies take control away from me, the more they lose out on my business. Steam and Ubisoft being the worst cases, imho.

Everything DarrkPhoenix said is almost exactly the way I feel as well. And Stuff makes some points that are right in line with my feelings too.

DRM is the first thing I look for when I see a game I'm interested in. If it's something that requires on-line activation with limited activations, it's a no-buy. If it's a non-Valve game and it requires Steam, it's a no-buy.

I've had enough issues and problems with DRM that I will no longer allow my money to support its use. I've passed on many games solely due to DRM. And the funny thing is, I don't feel I've missed out on anything at all. GOG alone has provided me with enough games to keep me busy for years.

I admit I seldom bought brand new games anyway (because of the prices but also because I don't have a high end gamer PC) but there was a time when I'd just browse the older games in the low price section of malls and buy whatever I felt like buying.

These days are definitely over now because for one nowadays the system requirements have gotten quite complicated for a clueless guy like me (what with dual core or not, strange graphic card names, shaders and what not) and also because I made bad experiences with Vista compatibility, in part also due to DRM. Therefor I've become very hesitant to buy something just for the fun of it, for fear it might bring me more problems than joy, and considering that stores usually don't take the games back if they don't work for you. So now when I'm interested in a game, I first have to google for compatibility issues and/or DRM and hope to find some relevant information because more often than not, they're not found on the games' boxes.

That's why the online purchases from GOG have now mostly replaced my old buying habits of going to the mall for retail copies because I hardly experience any issues with the DRM-free and fully Vista compatible GOG games and if I do I get better and quicker support here than I would from the mall or the game companies. I also like playing without the necessity of a game CD/DVD in my drive. Plus, I don't need to find a place to store all the boxes anymore, heh. And I often prefer the original versions of games because most of the time the German voice-overs are pretty inferior. Except in cases like "Sam & Max Hit The Road" and "Sam & Max: Season One" (one of the few games I bought new, for the full price and did not regret it) where they had top quality voice-overs by professional actors - but then the publisher decided to save money and replace them in Season 2 with low quality voiceovers by bored third class actors - so I had no reason to buy the German retail version anymore.

What has this rant to do with DRM? Not that much, I fear. My buying habits definitely have changed because of bad experiences with retail copies and DRM probably had a small part in it, too. But it didn't interfere a lot with the games I buy and the prices I pay for them. Still, I think there's also a psychological component to it. I'm happy to support whoever emphasizes artistic ambition over profit and puts his faith in me as an honest customer that I will appreciate their product and give them their due, rather than who treats me as a potential criminal, if given the opportunity. That's why I guess all in all I've actually spent MORE money on games from GOG or bought directly from Indie developers than I'd usually have spent for retail games from big publishers who seem to worry more about their products being stolen than about the actual value of them as high quality bug-free and entertaining games ...

Call me old fashioned, but I also don't think that one should have to be felt up to get on an airplane either. I've theoretically paid my theoretical money for a theoretical ticket, if they theoretically can't find anything on me without a theoretical grope, then perhaps they shouldn't.

DRM is largely the same bit, they can't figure out if they can trust me, but they'll take my money anyways.

For me it is not only DRM that changed my buying patterns but Online Sales and the inability to resell those games again.

Essentially Online Stores got me back into gaming.

I don´t buy single games over $10, EVER! Even if it´s Portal 2. Because I see games now the same as spending on the movies or a meal - one time fun.
The Online Seller won´t lose any money on 2nd Hand copies any more, so I think it MUST reflect in buying prices.

as for the DRM
No DRM like on GOG is the best but unfortunately GOG does not have all the games yet.

- Installation Client is ok, since you must already be online when you buy a game online, obviously and unlike in some places, 16MB/s DSL and high traffic volumes aren´t any issue for me.
- Activation is ok if it can be reset/replenished online, like on GamersGate.

- STEAM I learned to really love when I learned you can play games OFFLINE.
You Just cannot install new one, obviously,
I love Steam but see why others don´t.

The DRM a game uses really influences my buying decision!
These also sums the 3 online game portal I buy from only + some indies.
Anything else is out of the way for me, because I don´t want to have ten clients
/ Check Sites to manage.



Also I don´t want to waste physical space and I need to go forth and back between Japan and Germany, CD-Check DRM have become a no go. I cannot bring all the media.
Right now the most valuable things are when purchases `vanish´into my computer. And I cannot lose them anymore since I can reD/L anytime.
So I can bring them easily without lots of luggage.

I'm ok with Steam, though I don't like when a game forces it. Valve actually made buying a game on Steam generally more convenient than pirating it, so it's fine.

I'm not a customer of any other client-based stores, though. I just think it would be annoying to have a lot of client programs on my computer, and Steam has the best sales (and I have it since HL2 anyway). So it was just my choice, really.

I don't tolerate other kinds of DRM. Specially if there are limited activations. I *might* buy them on GamersGate, if they get very cheap on sales ($5 or less, depending on the game). Even though I know GG will handle everything for me, even the hassle of sending them a mail and waiting sounds so annoying I'm only willing to risk going through that for a really high fun/price ratio.

These are rare exceptions, though. Usually I only buy otherwise-drm-free games on Steam, DRM-free games on GG and GOGs.

I've no problem with most forms of DRM (with the exception of TAGES, and that Ubisoft mess, but they're pretty rare). I really don't understand how people hate it so much- beyond an initial activation, I never notice that DRM is there.

I don't want this to seem like I'm only praising Steam in this post-I recently got into it with someone who was refusing to buy the Witcher on GoG because Steam had all his games 'in one place,' which is just silly. I'm trying to explain why I don't buy any of the arguments against Steam/DRM in general. Steam may be the most prominent example, but their success is built on reliability, a big library, and great pricing.

Games have had DRM for a very long time. Is a CD key really the only acceptable form of DRM? Maybe it's a generational thing, but I don't see a CD key check being any less onerous than other methods. If anything, I'd need it explained to me how digital sites are worse. They give a backup of my purchase, so I can't lose some tiny scrap of paper and be unable to install my game again. Seems better to me, in terms of reliability and convenience.

Don't get me wrong-no DRM is always the way to go if there's a choice, and there's certainly some types of DRM that stink, but the top 3 digital download sites offer DRM that feels completely transparent. I use all three, depending on which has the best price. I've never seen a convincing argument for the evils of Steam-I double click on the icon, and my game plays. Always. How bad is that? No need for a CD key, no internet checks, although most people here seem unaware of offline mode. Even if they know about it, they seem convinced that it doesn't work. This argument is hard to take seriously. I could easily put forward a similar argument saying that CD keys are not always reliable either-but how compelling would that be?

I have 75 titles with Steam, and it's never failed, not once. I have, however, gotten fantastic deals that aren't available elsewhere, since the PC used game market has dried up. Hard to pass up routinely getting titles 75 to 90% off, and they have some great old games that aren't available elsewhere.

If you're one of those rare people for whom Steam never works, how is what you're experiencing any different from people whose CDs are shipped defective or which break over time? Surely, in either case, you'd concede that you belong to a very small minority. Would it be fair for me to condemn all boxed copies of games because the CDs I ordered are defective?

Edit: As an experiment, how would you respond to me if I told you that I refuse to play games that require a CD key, on the grounds that it's intrusive and unreliable? In what ways does it significantly differ from modern arguments against DRM in terms of my experience?

Steam's massive success indicates that it's pretty reliable and convenient for many, many people.

All those people dying for old Lucas Arts adventure games on GoG, for example, could have been playing games like The Dig and Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis on Steam. But oh no! It requires Steam!

If it really means that much, just set a shortcut for those games and run Steam in offline mode. Beyond starting it up, you'll never notice it's there. But that's not the point, is it?

I think DRM has become a sort of bogeyman. Even if you never notice the presence of DRM, simply knowing it's there is too much for some people. Seems irrational to me to object to all DRM on principle. Oh well, your loss. I'm going to go play Portal 2.

i like how steam handles drm, and i dont mind disc checks, but other then that, drm becomes a buying factor for me.

It's good that Steam has worked so well for you; many others have not been so fortunate. Your own testimonial tends to fit with my general perception of Steam- it's a service that works great... except when it doesn't. The main issue for me is one of frequency- that there's the potential for Steam to have problems every time I go to fire up a Steam game. And many of the failure modes are things I have absolutely no control over. Additionally, it acts as a single point of failure for every Steam game one happens to own- if the DRM for something else happens to have problems then that particular game is unplayable until the problem gets sorted, while if Steam decides to have trouble then every game purchased through Steam is unplayable until the problem gets sorted. These two things taken together makes the potential for Steam DRM to waste my time great enough that purchasing games through Steam simply isn't worth it to me, at any price.

You can just transfer your Steam games to a hard drive-even a USB thumb drive, if you like. Backing up is easily accomplished without the need for cracks and worrying about getting caught doing something that I have the legal right to do.

On top of that I can install whenever I like, whether or not I have an internet connection at that point. (Sound familiar?)

Like I said, what's the difference, except that with a CD I'm still screwed if I lose the key.

To Dark Phoenix: (sorry don't know how to quote you both in the same post):
Point taken about the potential for all your Steam games to fail. But there's an awful lot of 'ifs' in your post, and you'll forgive me if it all seems extremely unlikely. At any rate, it's not a compelling reason to refuse to play games that use it, though it's a valid reason to choose a competitor, instead. I want to be clear that I'm not advocating for any particular digital retailer, just that there are plenty of DRM which are reliable and unobtrusive.

If you were in my shoes, would you have any reason to stop using games that require DRM? That's what it comes down to, for me. Thanks to drm-using digital download sites(and GoG) I rarely buy games over $10-15. This year, I'll only have made 4 full-price purchases-Dragon Age 2, The Witcher 2, Portal 2, and Deus Ex 3. Last year, I think I only bought 3 games full price. If there were some sort of appreciable downside to this, I'd be more hesitant, but the explosive growth of places like Steam (at a time when people claim PC gaming is dead) makes it hard for me to believe that they're as unreliable as you say.

Again, I'm just using Steam as the most well-known example. Even if you have this fear of using the Steam client, there's still D2D and GG. I fully understand those who don't buy games using Ubisoft DRM, but I see a clear distinction between them and these other places.

However, I still don't see the clear distinction between, say, D2D asking me to enter a CD key, and the game keys I grew up entering with boxed copies. It's all DRM. It all requires half a minute's inconvenience, and in very rare circumstances it may not work. Big deal, I'll take those chances. It won't stop me from playing a Valve title. I guess I'm lucky to be among the tens of millions of whom Steam has miraculously not screwed over.

First before i start this long post.Lets say hi to everyone!
Captain death:Hello all!Yip yip!
Alymay:Spider hi!
Witch:Say hi to who now?O them! Hi you people over there!
Me:First i would like to start out by saying,i have nothing against steam i just don't use it. No reason, i just don't like using it.
When i say i'm interested in a game,i do not mean i am going to rush out on day one to buy this and would die if i didn't get it. Hell no,that is not what i mean at all.
I mean when i say interested as in,the game looks like something i may want to play and maybe fun.
I will then go and look up more about it,to learn if its worth buying or not.

Drm does play a role in this,is the pain of the drm worth it?
I have nothing against disk checks or other drm which i do not find a pain in my ass
Games which only let me install it 3 times or so, are a big.
Alymay:No way in the spider web?
Me:Not the words i would use but yes!Anyway.
I don't like dealing with the greater pain in the ass drm and tend not to buy anything with drm i dislike.
For i could find my self a fun game that has no drm or save my self a big bag of gold coins with my face on it.

Witch:You have gold coins with your face on it?When did this happen?
Me:Before you join.I run a fucking empire,of cos i'm going have gold coins with my face on them!
Witch:So do they make cookies that look like you?
Me:What does that.No no they don't!Now where was i again.
Drm can be a pain and something i don't want to deal with.So if it comes down to it,i would skip the game and save my self the gold coins and buy some other game i like,that has drm i can live with or in the best case drm free.

Captain death:Remember the good old days sir? I sure do!Yip yip!
Me:Ah yes the good old days,where you could go out to the gaming store and buy a game with that feeling its your and opening it to take in that new disk smell.
I just don't get that same feeling today.I don't feel like you own the game and its yours to do with as you please.I feel in the worst cases with drm,that your renting it and that new disk smell don't feel as good as it should.
I like boxes,they are fun to have around.Which is why i like gog so much,these little boxes you can look at after buying the game,make it feel like the good old days of going out and buying a band new box copy of that game you wanted.

I'm pretty sure that's not actually true. You can back up the content yes, but if you want to install it you have to have the steam app say that it's OK, there are even games on Steam with additional DRM on top of the obnoxious DRM that Steam provides. Steam is nice in the sense that you don't have to download the files a second time, but they do require reactivation if you're going to reinstall.

The point being that you need the steam app and the ability to connect to the net if you're reinstalling the OS.

None of the sites I looked at indicated that I was wrong on that detail.

EDIT: And to multireply, just repeat the process the two posts typically get merged together to create a multi reply, silly, but that's how that works.

Of course there's an awful lot of "ifs", it's an analysis of potential risk factors. Now, if you evaluate the same risk factors and come to a different conclusion regarding your own use of Steam (say, because you might have more free time than me and thus not be quite so put off if some of that time gets wasted with problems) then that's just fine; the risk factors I went over are the reason why I choose not to use Steam, and for me those risk factors are quite compelling. This is only compounded by the fact that even if I completely stopped buying games this moment, I've got enough purchased but unplayed games sitting around to keep me busy for 3-4 months (most DRM free), so I'm not exactly hurting for options.