Well, maybe, so I think we should drop the subject :D

The pizza hut example makes sense, in that they can stop you from entering the premises. But if you bought the pizza already, kicking you out of the store doesn't remove your right to the pizza.

Steam advertises games for sale, not access to the service/license. No EULA changes that.

Here, for all you pizza debating people, something to make your head explode

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraktionsprinzip

Have fun!

Well backuping steam games is kind of useless, it's like any other DRM-using games, unless you use a crack your backup won't work until you let the game connect online, so if Steam is ever down, your account is banned, or one of the game you backuped is removed from your account you are out of luck.

The only games for which backup will work is the few Steam games that doesn't actually require Steam to run like dosbox games and some indy games.

I wasn't talking about the law, and frankly couldn't care less about it. If a thief steals my bike then I only still "own" it insofar as I can leverage the law to regain control of it. Given the outcomes I've experienced upon reporting bikes I've had stolen, I have to say that at least on this side of the pond if a thief steals my bike, then for all intents and purposes he now owns it.

The law only has meaning when enough of society buys into it and is willing to act as result such that they can help one retain or regain control over property.

To put it another way, if GOG said tomorrow, "We're rescinding all licenses; everyone who purchased games from GOG needs to uninstall and delete all of the games they bought here", just how many people do you think would actually do that? And what could GOG effectively do about that? Given the answers to those questions, in any meaningful sense of the word, who actually "owns" the individual copies of games purchased through GOG? Now think about how a similar situation would play out with Steam.

Heh, probably just because I've dallied on semantics while prancing around core issues far too much in the past. It eventually made me realize how much I hate all that bullshit.

Pretty much. If someone pirates a game then at least with respect to being able to install and play the game they own it. If anything this really calls attention to just how much of a fantasy "ownership" is with respect to things that can be infinitely copied at almost no cost. "Ownership" with respect to such things only has meaning to the extent that people are willing to go along with that fantasy.

Theres one lesson ive learned from reading Steams forums. NEVER EVER open a dispute on paypal, because they will for sure suspend your account. And never EVER get too many accounts, they might get suspended for fraud suspicions. I wouldnt recommend trying to bypass region locking either, but some people have done it and it looks like Valve doesnt care about it. Other than that i think youre fine and wont have any problems with it.

I must be honest, i dont like DRM either, but im not paranoid about it. There are DRM types im ok with, such as Steams. There are those im not, such as Ubisofts always-on DRM and Starforce. SecuROM doesnt bother me because i dont change my PC very often, and its actually possible to get an activation token back.

This isn't Steam related, but it does relate to the grim concern regarding DRM gaming. As you all know, D2D has "moved" to Gamefly, and by move, I mean they're dead. I meant to try Gamefly a long, long time ago, but now I, reluctantly, had a reason to finally get to doing that.

I got to keep a handful of my games, it doesn't look like I can save installers for the Oddworld games anymore, and when I was testing the install, it looked like it was activating, so saving the installed game probably wouldn't work. However, I saved all of my downloads and keys from Direct2Drive as I do with all of my digital downloads. I just have the unsettling knowledge that the only thing keeping me from having to pirate or rebuy to claim ownership is that I have a hard drive and discs in working condition, that I can never legally redownload them again. Not a nice feeling, but this is why I kept them stored, and this is why I avoided paying serious money for anything that wasn't DRM-free.


Several of my games were missing. I cannot recall, as I've already uninstalled Gamefly, but Civilization IV was definitely among them, as that's the major issue I'm having right now. I have the complete pack, and all of the keys continue to activate just fine. However, that is to say, all of the keys with the exception of Warlords. That expansion seems to use a different activation tool, which I hadn't really noticed until now, because I'm unable to activate it.

While the others use the typical securom sort of activation system, Warlords uses a "Powered by ActiveMark Technologies" system that "requires an internet connection". I'm guessing that whatever server it was supposed to connect to is now dead or invalidated. I have two choices, "Connect me to the internet" and "I am already connected". Both of them flounder about for a while, attempting to "connect [me] to the internet", and complain that I must be connected to the internet to activate my product.

I'm not sure how long it's been like this, perhaps it's been like this for a few months since it's been a while since I last installed it, but it doesn't even offer the chance to input my keys. If anybody also has Civilization IV: Warlords from Direct2Drive and would like to try and sort this out, that'd be great. Whatever you do, just don't uninstall it, or you're liable to not be able to reinstall again.


For some reason their version of X-Com Interceptor and Enforcer required activation. Their version of Civilization III was DRM-free, though, unlike GamersGate. They also had Prey, Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines (albeit with DRM, unlike DotEmu, but they were one of the few other places to have it nonetheless), SimCity 4 (DRM-free), Fallout 3, Morrowind, Knights of the Old Republic, Republic Commando, Dynasty Warriors 4, Borderlands GotY (GamersGate's handling of Borderlands is... odd...), and a few other noteworthy games where Direct2Drive would have been the preferable (assuming you like to avoid clients and DRM when you have a choice) or only option.

Yes,If GOG is dead then I retrieve games from torrent.
It's legal.

Not according to US caselaw. You can dispose of your copy in nearly any way you desire.

Steam is solely subscription.
So far,they are behaving as if user own games.
When they pile up deficit,they will levy usage fee,because of IT IS SUBSCRIPTION.

No it isn't. Maybe in Japan, but not in the EU/USA

A lot of people get mixed up with legal definitions and moral definitions.

Legally digital distribution is still pretty much a clusterfuck in most nations, but in generall you

a) don't "own" any game as you aquire a licence
b) your Steam games are your indefinetly and can't be removed by Steam without reason
c) "piracy" (which by itself is a whole different clusterfuck) certainly isn't allowed by having a licence
d) consumer proteciton laws are your friend an supercede EULAs/TOS/SSA whenever they are unfair towards you (definatly EU/ probably US/ unsure for others)

But more important for everyone is how you see it morally. This question can only be answered by each person on it's own. But because something is morally just in the eyes of everyone it the room it isn't legal. And then (consumer protection) laws aren't your friend anymore, so take care.

That's the Steam way. They can remove your right to play the game at every possible moment. In your case they did, but they mostly don't do such things. What you own is a license the worth of which can vary between zero and something above zero. Everybody agrees to it, when he/she buys Steam games. From a legal point of view, everything is alright. All people who do not agree with this should just not buy.

However, since it does not happen so often, that your account gets locked by Steam, most customers still use it. But at some point in the future, this system will be replaced - I am sure.
You didn't make backups then?

I wonder how many GOG customers really archive all their bought games...

I always archive my games, complete with extras and autorun script, in a nice Amaray box with inlay as soon as I've bought the game.

With Steam games, I always include a crack on the DVD as an "In case of emergency" measure, not that I've had to use one yet. Problem solved.