'Tomato - Tomoto, 6 - half a dozen, soda - cola'. Richard Stallman calls it Digital Restrictions Managment and that's usually what i remember, but it's still the same technology and does the same thing.

http://drm.info/

Not really. Ripping the game or media out of DRM (or at least making it inert) is pretty much the prerequisite, before it makes sense to try to get the game or media working on future systems. Think of all those old console, coin op, Amiga etc. games. They would be useless today, unless someone had ripped them out of the media (e.g. reading the ROM contents), unecrypted the data, removed any additional copy protection schemes etc.

Also, the virtualization or emulation part is mostly a one time deal, while ripping DRM has to usually be done individually for each game. We already have DOSBox, and the DOSBox authors don't need to modify or re-release DOSBox for each new DOS game. But each DOS game has to be ripped out of its "DRM", or at least make it ineffective (e.g. if there is a keyword check in a game, release the whole manual as a pdf => the manual check is still there, but does not anymore prevent the free usage of the product).

So the DRM part is much more than merely a tiny blip in the grand scheme of things. In fact, it is one of the major obstacles. It doesn't make sense to imply that DRM doesn't matter, as there may be other obstacles to run the games as well (like that someone has to come up with DOSBox, WinUAE or VMWare Player).


Also, I would say your point missed the mark anyway because DRM would also prevent running the game on the original system, in which case the argument that "you can't run the game on future systems" becomes irrelevant. For instance, my PS2 system still works, luckily my PS2 games don't have DRM which would decide for me that I shouldn't be able to play them anymore, even though the system for which I bought them still works.

DRM Free - software
DRM - conditionally crippled software

Considering the DRM is already ripped out, that every Steamworks game is on torrent sites DRM free, I don't really get how you can say this. But hey, everyone has an opinion.

Any time there's an update to the game the DRM may have to be manually ripped out again. Still takes time for the hacker, be it hours days or weeks. And if the company is really trying to make sure the DRM stays in, they could add in several locations further that DRM checks are done and from different side functions that double-check the results which makes it more than a blip.

I recall each version of Diablo 2 had to be cracked individually (no-cd).

And don't forget, when Microsoft's Vista's (or was it 7?) DVD ripping prevention code was cracked they threw out a forced patch the NEXT DAY to put it back in.

Not really what I'm talking about. We're talking about game preservation. Making sure quality games last long into the future, which is what DRM (supposedly) is a risk to. I'm saying no, it's easy to remove Steam DRM, it will be a blip on the radar to future abandonware suppliers, it's not even the slightest concern. It's already removed now, be it release day or release week or release year, it's not going to be an issue.

Windows might become an issue, whatever comes after 64bit might become an issue, low resolutions might become an issue, who knows? DRM though? I'm not really worried about it.

Quite frankly, after switching back and forth my PSN EU and PSN US accounts for my Vita, doing the whole factory reset of the device and formatting the memory card, using the files manager from SONY to restore the backups, for being used to that process for more than a year now without lifting an eyebrow anymore, I don't care about the definition of DRM.

What about console exclusiveness? Xbox games that aren't on the PC, 360 games that are only on XBLA and nowhere else? There's a lot of games that are console exclusives you can't emulate or play and they are effectively lost right now with each console generation breaking all backwards compatibility. One example was Sudeki, which was Xbox only. We only recently got a port of it, but before that it was lost in limbo, where game studios and publishers believe they will make all the money and returns on a game for a limited console life of 5 years or less. The Baulders Gate games (Dark Alliance) is another example.

then there's games that are online-only, when the servers go down or they refuse service the games go with them. SimCity 5 is an example although EA obviously could include a server they would rather see the game burn than give us full access to our purchased game. Currently that's the same for D3 and SC2.
So you've become compliant... Exactly what the corporations want, little obedient sheep...

To be clear I am only talking about PC games, and only singleplayer games because that's all I play. Console games, despite being "DRM free" by some people, have their own host of issues with preservation that I've talked a lot about before.

And I'm not saying I like DRM or anything, I'm just saying I trust people to preserve the classics.

First off, Sudeki was released for PC in 2005 in Europe.
Secondly, why so butthurt? You think everyone is willing to fight the DRM on every front? Fuck that! If I was to fight the DRM, I wouldn't have purchased my Vita and I would've missed on amazing titles like Ys: Memories of Celceta or Persona 4 Golden.
I totally feel you. I was really pissed when I sent my Vita to get repaired and when it got back the memory card formatted itself because it was a new Vita (I'm not complaining about the new Vita, LOL, I'm complaining about the memory card format)
Isn't there a way around this? In any case, I'm dabbling with the idea of getting another Vita just for imports. Maybe only Japan imports, but if there are exclusive EU titles, I may need to do what you do.

There are lots of issues with your argument, which I've said countless times before:

1. You are not talking about downloading some small hack to make all your existing (bought) Steam games DRM-free (like you would download some fan made patch to make e.g. the original retail System Shock 2 to run fine on new systems). You are talking about downloading the cracked full games all over again from torrent sites. Good luck trying to find all of them.

2. As rtcvb32 pointed out, many of those will be still the initial buggy 1.0 versions, and/or missing DLCs. The pirate release groups are more interested into recognition of new releases, more than maintaining older releases.

3. In many countries, mine included, getting to torrent sites is getting harder and harder over time, not easier. The ISPs actively block access to many known sites, while other sites are completely taken down. The same does not similarly apply to e.g. web sites offering fan patches to Thief The Dark Project or System Shock 2.

4. Regardless of what some deluded people claim, pirated material on torrent sites can have and have had malware. What's a better way to implant a trojan to people's PCs, than them willingly installing it as part of untrackable pirated material they got from some hazy torrent site, and are unwilling to complain anywhere that they got malware as part of pirated software?

So all in all, it boils down to this question: in order to play your legit games in the future, even on that very system for which you originally bought it, should one consider it acceptable that he has to track down and redownload all his games all over again from hazy sites, and possibly getting lesser versions of them (e.g. missing later fixes, or some DLCs he had for the original game)? Especially since that act in itself, downloading (and at the same time sharing them, as that is how the p2p networks work by default) is illegal in many countries, even if you own the original games already?

So you say, but I would be very surprised to be able to locate even 30% of all Steam games on torrent sites, _with active seeders_. If you can find a torrent link with 0 seeders, that is as good as not having a torrent link at all.

And in general, I disapprove your idea that I should be expected to resort to piracy (with all the inherent issues to it), just in order to play a game I have already bought legit. From my point of view, that should not be expected.

Can't manage quotes today, oh well..

@rtcvb32

"So you've become compliant... Exactly what the corporations want, little obedient sheep..."

Hmm, for my Vita it's either giving up on having one, or do as I do, since I already had EU and US PSN by my PSP with numerous purchases. Life is short and I grew with SONY products, I submit to their crazy DRM system, as I still LOVE their PSN offers and overall image of High-Tech reliable brand. :(

@HijacK

"I totally feel you. I was really pissed when I sent my Vita to get repaired and when it got back the memory card formatted itself because it was a new Vita (I'm not complaining about the new Vita, LOL, I'm complaining about the memory card format)
Isn't there a way around this? In any case, I'm dabbling with the idea of getting another Vita just for imports. Maybe only Japan imports, but if there are exclusive EU titles, I may need to do what you do."

I don't think you can get around it, the memory card is linked with the Vita model internal database AND registered PSN account, if I understand correctly... I just dislike the Ps3 has the option to set several PSN accounts within a same Os, not the Vita, this is crap. :/

You could give up on having one. I don't have one, and i probably never will, in fact i will probably never get another dedicated console or handheld since i'm so fed up with it all.

No matter how sugar coated and enticing something can be, you're still willingly letting yourself be handcuffed by the protocols and systems that offer nothing good in return. Yes life is short, but that doesn't mean you have to support companies or systems that treat you unfairly.

There's other systems that are trying to be pushed into place. SOPA and PIPA for example. Tens of thousands of people protest to these rights being taken away, but in the end they are still people and they still have to go back to work, sleep, provide food, and eventually die. Companies and corporations will keep pushing it over and over again until they win, because they have unlimited time to further restrict rights and freedoms. If something is pushed enough time much like brainwashing and advertisements, you become complacent.

If corporations get what they want like with the XBone, only people who own a movie could watch it, or bought an MP3 could listen to it, or own a book can read it. There would be no sharing, no borrowing, nothing. This video sorta sums up what DRM is both in theory and if it were pushed as far as the corporations wanted it to go.

A real world DRM

Too bad the hacks are quite often version-dependent, and finding them in the first place is a much bigger pain in the arse than people like to claim, especially when you take into account to loads of Steam games with additional 3rd party DRM.

I many cases the only feasible way to get a DRM-free version is to download the whole game (pirated version) all over again, instead of trying to locate all the correct cracks for your legit version of the game.

Strawman argument with a red herring as a nose. If you don't have your original Robocop DVDs anymore, then you can't watch it without downloading the movie somewhere first. Duh.

For what it's worth, I have The Witcher 2 backed up. If I didn't have it (also if and when GOG.com goes belly up) and still wanted to play it, I would blame only myself, just like I would blame myself if I had thrown or lost my Robocop DVDs.

I know, but that doesn't change the fact that hunting down for both the (cracked) updates, missing pirated DLCs etc. is a true pain in the ass, and in many cases unachievable.

If the author is known and the site/author is easily trackable (e.g. downloading the piece of software from the author's homepage), common sense says there is less chance of malware (intentionally) being included, than downloading a piece of software by an unknown Russian author on a torrent site.

I personally am somewhat wary with freeware in general as well, if the author is unknown. Yesterday I guess I took a risk with PeaZip, as I consider the author known enough, and I think I know who to blame if I ever see PeaZip being the cause of malware.

If someone had offered SuperDuberZip on a torrent site, I would have passed.

Only if you chose not to download the updates in time, in which case you can blame only yourself. As it happens, I keep the updates to e.g. my retail PC games on my HDD. I don't presume The Patches Scrolls will be there forever to offer them.

Irrelevant, just as pointing out that you can't watch your Robocop DVD anymore, if you threw the DVDs to trashbin before.

Yet, the p2p networks work on the premise that people are willing to share the data as well. If they weren't, no one could download anything. Or if only few people (prime seeders) were, the download speeds would be abysmal.

I disagree. And yes, I have tried it, and even sometimes asked here some people, who've claimed the same as you ("finding working cracks for all games is super-eazy!"), to point me (in PM) to a working crack to game A or B that I have on e.g. Steam. They have always backed down at that point, at best pointing me to a torrent of the full pirated version, which I presume to mean that regardless of what they claimed, they had no idea where to get the correct crack for the game(s) I presented to them.

Locating The Witcher 2 installer from my external HDD seems much less hassle, even less so than locating the Robocop DVD trilogy set from my book shelf.