It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
General discussion (archive)Controversial Wiki Leaks video(93 posts)(93 posts)
(93 posts)
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
This is my favourite topic
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
Wraith: I dont know if you actually believe what you say, or you just say it cause you "did service". Being in the military "on the ground" must really make you an excuse-making tool. Phraphrasing some comments of the reactions to this, this was a complete rush to find targets, yes, it was as though this idiot pilot was trying to score up higher points in his own version of the death from above level of Cod4. Was probably blasting "Let the bodies hit the floor" through his head gear too. There was NO courage, no bravery, no intelligence, NOTHING that the military, Semper Fi or anyone could be proud of. And don't come up with that crap excuse, cause it IS an excuse and a CHEAP COP OUT to throw that tired line, "in a war there's always casualties." Osama Bin Laden could use that very same line if he was on a bench on trial for 911. This isn't even a war, it's just a series of ILLEGAL OCCUPATIONS by the usa invaders. It's something akin to the occupations from Nazi Germany. It's disgusting.
Oh, and of course, soldiers "engage", only "insurgents" kill.
avatar
drmlessgames: Ok, you obviously don't know me. I am a former USAF Security Forces member. IE, infantry of the Air Force. While I never deployed in my years of service (I WANTED to go to Afghanistan until they cancelled it due to the base transferring) I've talked with countless people who had been deployed, including some who saw combat, got injured, or killed people, one of whom was traumatized due to the fact he killed an innocent man, due to the fact the guy refused to heed all warnings, including warning shots, and kept advancing, prompting him to open fire per his ROE.
I AM NOT FOR THE WAR IN IRAQ OR AFGHANISTAN. Let me make that perfectly clear. However, I understand soldiers in the military. I know their attitude. These pilots are human beings, just like you and me. People don't need to have played video games to get their adrenaline flowing to the point where they get a combat high. They were reacting to people they THOUGHT were insurgents, who had been reported as having fired on soldiers. If you were in a war, and people were trying to kill YOUR friends, your countrymen, wouldn't you want to kill them just as much? This was an accidental killing, plain and simple. Weapons were visible, the WO's thought they were all terrorists, which is logical thinking, and they opened fire. They had NO idea they were journalists, or that there were kids in the van.
If you can't seem to grasp the concept, and want to assume that all soldiers are just Xbox Live players, feel free. I don't know how the military is in Peru, but I know how the US and German military is, and I can guarantee you almost every other soldier would act the same if they were placed in a similar situation. This is the problem with classified military transmissions: The public doesn't understand how soldiers speak, and yes, it comes off very callous, but I can assure you those soldiers hearts probably sank later that day after set the chopper down and went to their tents for the night, despite what the gunner and pilot say about kids being brought into the killzone.
DarrkPhoenix hit the nail on the head: The issue is not with the WO's killing the civilians, or their chatter, the issue is with the US Army Command, like the fucking pea-brained idiots they are, covering up a massacre LIKE THEY HAVE DONE TONS OF TIMES BEFORE. After incidents like My Lai, the Pat Tillman friendly-fire incident, you'd think they would have learned by now NOT to cover this stuff up and just come out with it. If they had come out in the first place and issued an apology, this wouldn't be talked about.

If they get killed, or lose both legs while at service, they got what it was coming to them, no cares on my part about that. They should have read more carefully the join-the-army brochure they got at the mall before enlisting. The fact that they JOINED and WENT to the war theatre means they are AGREEING with the profitable adventures of business of war and killing uncle same likes to engage on. They arent heroes. They are just business tools. But the focus should be on the big picture, on crap policies and fearmongering that gives cowboys like the former usa president the leeway to pursue his war adventures.
Posted April 06, 2010
Can we keep on topic please? I've been reading some very well thought out and intelligent comments on this subject that are challenging my own views on the matter and I've enjoyed reading people's contributions so far, let's not start flaming or U.S bashing, please!
Posted April 06, 2010
I often wonder what makes people become a soldier. I fear it's not about noble causes most of the time - the army seems to mostly attract a certain type of person which isn't really the kind you'd ideally want in an army anyway. In the US, this seems to be the redneck republican gun loving racist type. Well, I guess the US military likes them like that :S but it doesn't really improve the image of the army, does it?
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
drmlessgames: The country is "quiet". Yes, quiet like most maximum security facilities are quiet at nightime, when the order to turn off the lights is given. Being from Australia, a former penal colony, you should know that well.

I am Polish. I came to sydney to steal their jobs and women. :)
That's not a secure country. The fact that you say "if we leave the country burns" shows the occupation is a complete failure.

No. It shows that there is still a lot of work. You don't stop building bridge in the middle right? if you do it will collapse or won't work as a bridge at all.
You are not wanted there. Your presence is not appeasing anything. It only exacerbates it. Wonder if you'd like foreign troops occupying some parts of Syndey and Perth, and telling you it's "for your own good."

Hey. Don't tell me about occupation. Soviet freed us from bad guy with a stache and they stayed for fifty years. it was a blast.
You know, since the occupation there's been over one hundred common people casualties, not "hostiles", you know, what they call "friendly fire".

Yeah. Shit happens. That's why i have problems with the video mate.
Ecological damages, yea, all the bullet gunfire shell casings and skirmishes havent destroyed the environment so far, nope, not by a long shot.

No mate. I am talking about oil fields being burnt. Millions of oil going in flames. At once. Huge clouds of toxic smoke traveling thousands of miles damaging parts of iraq and other countries irreversibly.
If I was australian or from any country that has troops invading iraq right now, it'd be freaking pissed and afraid to stick my head on the public. And I'd be protesting every day to my worthless government to stop being the usa's henchmen in this occupation.

That's why i am telling you to hit the books. Learn how stuff works before making a judgment.
Occupations only benefits big private businesses in the end. Oil companies, building companies and such, making a killing, pun intended, from this invasion. And the biggest business of them being the military itself. More resounce and funds out of the taxpayer money needed for them. Crooks, I think every country in the world should do like Costa Rica, and get rid of that mafia-like ring of crooks called the military. And that is how the world works.

Yes. I agree. Military should be gone. If every country did that the world would be perfect. It isn't and it won't be in a very long time so getting rid of military is a way to welcome friendly people from other countries. Costa Rica is protected by Nato. that's why they could get rid of their military.
Now really. What would happen to Iraq if USA pulled out this month (and other countries)?
Everything will be pretty and dangy. New democratic government not usaass sucking like previous will be elected. Bombing the marketplace at noon on Saturdays will stop?
You can't be serious. If you are, then I don't know whether i should pity you for such views or envy your naivety.
I will give you few ideas:
April: Full Pull out
May 1st: No single nato soldier on iraqi grounds
May 2: New Islamic leader calls nation to go back to islamic roots
May 3: Pro-Hussein religious bombings of government buildings
May 4: More bombings and full scale assaults on banks and government buildings.
May 5: Kurds want their own country. Violent democratic discussions
May 6: New politcal parties form everywhere. More bombings.
May 7: Military leader sides with one of the new parties. Using USA as enemy they gain popularity.
May 8: Government collapsing.... Not sure how strong they are. They might either declare martial laws or disband
May 9: Chaos: Oil wells on fire. As they are used by capitalistic pigs to rob the country.
May 10: Huge poisonous clouds hit Israel. Jews are pissed. Makes america pissed.
May 11: Baghdad on fire. Without government or with martial laws in place fighting will go to streets. Instead of political arguments, bombs and bullets are used to solve problems.
...
24th December 2012: NUCLEAR WAR!
:)
Okay. with the last one i went little overboard just for fun (you know? 2012 is the apocalypse)
Imagine the iraq is a tower. With central column supporting everything. With walls you can remove the column and the tower can grow by itself. But if you remove the column before the walls are completed it will wobble and collapse.
That's why the pull out is slow and painful. Step at a time. Letting Iraqis getting used to life without hussein.
Oh.
The current occupation is legal. United Nations supports it, Iraqi officially elected government also and is supported by population although not liked.
and stop being such a usa hater. make your arguments reasonable.
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
Red_Avatar: the army seems to mostly attract a certain type of person which isn't really the kind you'd ideally want in an army anyway. In the US, this seems to be the redneck republican gun loving racist type.

Out of curiosity, where do you get your information? Just because those are the types of soldiers you see in youtube videos?
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
Red_Avatar: To be fair, that's not quite right.
a) the Iraq war was NOT accepted by NATO and only after the whole mess, the UN agreed to help rebuild the country. It's not like they had a choice in the matter since it was a big mess that could blow up even more if left unchecked. The only reason it's even "legal" is because of this. Let's not be naive and pretend otherwise. The invasion, which is really the important part of this, was NOT legal and received a lot of criticism from both NATO and the UN so explain that?
b) of COURSE the local governement will say the war was a good thing because they weren't in power before. Sadham Houssein was part of the Sunnis which are the smallest group in Iraq so with Sadham gone, the the Sunnis are now without power which is part of this whole mess. Also, of course they like the US being there to help kill any Sunni resistance.

Not talking about the war mate. But about sanctioning the presence of the troops on iraqi soil now. two different things although similar.
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
Shure: @PoSSeSSeDCoW
To clarify, the helicopter was under no threat at all in any way, shape or form. It was way, way, out of an RPG's accurate range of fire, possibly out of it's full range alltogether. The lag between hearing the 30mm cannon firing and the impact of the ammunition tells us that much.

I was vague. I didn't mean that the people in the helicopter were under immediate threat from the RPG, just that each person with an RPG is a potential threat to the soldiers in the future. Every RPG unaccounted for can pop up anywhere and do large amounts of damage.
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
Shure: @PoSSeSSeDCoW
To clarify, the helicopter was under no threat at all in any way, shape or form. It was way, way, out of an RPG's accurate range of fire, possibly out of it's full range alltogether. The lag between hearing the 30mm cannon firing and the impact of the ammunition tells us that much.
avatar
PoSSeSSeDCoW: I was vague. I didn't mean that the people in the helicopter were under immediate threat from the RPG, just that each person with an RPG is a potential threat to the soldiers in the future. Every RPG unaccounted for can pop up anywhere and do large amounts of damage.

My mistake then, I just assumed. Sorry! Seeing so many comments justifying the actions through trying to argue that the pilots fired out of self preservation, which clearly isn't the case.
Also, lukaszthegreat I love how you've cottoned on to one Aussie stereotype with your use of 'mate', reminds me of a Russian bird I know who does the same over here in Blighty, except I imagine her accent is far, far sexier than yours, sorry!! :P
Posted April 06, 2010
I blame the folks ordering the troops around, not the troops themselves. The point of war (and by extension the troops in said war) is to kill people and break things. That is what an army is trained to do.
If the power that be intend to use the military as peacekeepers, they do so at their own peril. This is not their intended purpose, this is not what they trained for. When under stress soldiers will fall back to their training, which is intended. However, as stated, their training is to kill people and break things.
I get tired of people putting US troops at risk in a job they are not trained to do, then getting all upset when something like this happens. U.S. soldiers are the best in the world, bar none; they have the best training (yes, British SAS and Australian special forces are well trained as well, but I am talking about general enlisted) and the best equipment (this could be better, obviously, but it is still the best). The fact that they have been occupying 2 countries for the better part of a decade and have had so few problems is a testament to their restraint.
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
Red_Avatar: Out of curiosity, where do you get your information? Just because those are the types of soldiers you see in youtube videos?
avatar
kalirion: Well, yes, the vids, and the people posting online, and the people I know personally, and the people who have family who are soldiers, etc. Also, I read an article which showed that over 80% of all soldiers come out of red states.
Post edited April 06, 2010 by Red_Avatar
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
Shure: Also, lukaszthegreat I love how you've cottoned on to one Aussie stereotype with your use of 'mate', reminds me of a Russian bird I know who does the same over here in Blighty, except I imagine her accent is far, far sexier than yours, sorry!! :P

I use it only on the internet and sms. :) Normally i just use 'man' (especially since i am extremely bad with names)
Currently I have horrible accent. A mix between German and Russian. :)
Post edited April 06, 2010 by lukaszthegreat
Posted April 06, 2010
I haven't read the whole thread (TL;DR), so this may already have been brought up, but this whole "video game-like behavior" thing has a me bit confused. Shouldn't it be the other way around? As in, video games are replicating military-like behavior? I am not a military person, but from my conversations with other military people, the general consensus seems to be that while the events were tragic, the soldiers themselves were acting in the detached manner that soldiers are supposed to act. Its pretty much the only way to deal with the horrific things they might be called upon to do. The only thing that was really wrong was the intelligence they were provided, which seems to be par for the course in Iraq.
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
Krypsyn: I get tired of people putting US troops at risk in a job they are not trained to do, then getting all upset when something like this happens. U.S. soldiers are the best in the world, bar none; they have the best training (yes, British SAS and Australian special forces are well trained as well, but I am talking about general enlisted) and the best equipment (this could be better, obviously, but it is still the best). The fact that they have been occupying 2 countries for the better part of a decade and have had so few problems is a testament to their restraint.

I'm confused by this comment, which troops are you refering to not being adequately trained for the situation?
I hope you realize that other nations armed forces have aided the United States in its adventure in the Middle East over the last decade also? And, no, the United States does not have the soley 'best trained' troops in the world, no disrespect but that is an outrageous claim to be making. (And don't think I'm trying to imply that U.S forces aren't well trained, because I'm not.)
lukaszthegreat, no! My illusion of a Pole happily strolling about in the Canberra sun yelling 'g'day mate!' at passers by has been shattered :(
Posted April 06, 2010
avatar
drmlessgames: If they get killed, or lose both legs while at service, they got what it was coming to them, no cares on my part about that. They should have read more carefully the join-the-army brochure they got at the mall before enlisting. The fact that they JOINED and WENT to the war theatre means they are AGREEING with the profitable adventures of business of war and killing uncle same likes to engage on. They arent heroes. They are just business tools. But the focus should be on the big picture, on crap policies and fearmongering that gives cowboys like the former usa president the leeway to pursue his war adventures.

....What the hell are you talking about? Are we having the same conversation?
Posted April 06, 2010
Was gonna Thank DRM for letting me know there is a fire outside my hooch.... But then when I looked outside THERE WAS NO FIRE!.... then ... when I turned on my TV and was watching Iraqi based TV! I didnt see US puppets! .... Damn DRM... perhaps you could do more fact finding before posting that a WHOLE FUCKING COUNTRY is on fire... (oh and the USAID called we want to stop GIVING PERU AID (yep thats right folks... the United STates evil in their ways gives aid to countries... it is a sinister plot... oh snap BUSH! Gave Peru 2 BILLION! omgwow!!)
Now.... back to the topic at hand.....
(sorry..... People talking shit about things they know nothing about offends me)
Intel failures happen, all the time, and there really is not much we can do about it, funding is being cut for those types of programs.... hell we are cutting Nasa out, we outsource Intel jobs, we outsource surveillance, problems do happen no denying it.
But most soldiers HAVE to be detached to deal with it the soldiers who can not detach themselves go crazy and shoot people alla Fob Ceder, Sykes, Liberty, Marez, Q West, Thunder, Bucca, Abu Grab, Chomper,
Hell im sure I have a bit of PTSD as well amongst other things, how I deal with it... is different. Sigh....2200..... need to get ready for a funeral tomorrow... sigh...
Pages:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Controversial Wiki Leaks video(93 posts)(93 posts)
(93 posts)