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General discussion (archive)Computer Help Please! Urgent.(32 posts)solved(32 posts)solved
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 18, 2013
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Sactravas: Somethings to also remember is even though batteries don't have memory effects anymore, having a battery and power cable plugged into a laptop for extended periods of time will put a wear and tear effect on the battery, meaning when the battery is fully charged it will drain itself to protect itself from overcharging; it will continue that cycle over and over again. Protect your batteries and don't have it in your laptop unless you're on the go, go.
I've never heard this claim before so I went and checked it out and this doesn't seem to be true.

Laptop batteries are damaged by 2 things: the drain/recharge cycle and heat - as they cause the internal structure to warp/break down.

So leaving the battery in while on mains power doesn't damage it because of being topped up (I've actually read somewhere that you aren't supposed to let Lithium battaries drain below 50% or something anyway..), it is being damaged by the heat generated by the device. Usually, if you have it plugged in, it is on for longer and thus, hotter for longer.

Bear in mind this was just a quick 10 minutes of Googling, but it makes sense based on my other knowledge of how these batteries work. Please point me to a correction if it is wrong! :)
Posted July 18, 2013
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Phc7006: The usual suspect is a fan having failed.
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nightrunner227: Bingo. One of them isn't going at all
At least it gives a path to explore...

The first step now is to google for disassembly instructions, open the computer, remove the fan , clean it, and examine it carefully. There is a slight chance that it is actually blocked by dust or by a food debris or wathever. If there is no obvious reason for it not to work, you'll have to find a similar fan.
Posted July 18, 2013
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Curunauth: EDIT:

Also, if an overheat is causing the shutdowns, you may have entries reflecting that in the Windows error log, if you can keep the computer up long enough to check that. Overheating components can generally throw some errors when they get into the danger zone, before the whole thing locks up - and the error message will ID the overheating part (although the cause of the overheating might be a dead fan, or fried thermal paste from a bad heat excursion).

Fans are relatively inexpensive to replace in most machines.
Also, if the OP has another computer, then just taking the HDD out and plugging it into the other computer would permit access to the logs. Also, a good way to back up, assuming that the HDD isn't dead.

My laptop was fine, except for the HDD after overheating, but I'm not sure if it was coincidental as the power in that part of the world was terrible.
Posted July 18, 2013
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Sactravas: Somethings to also remember is even though batteries don't have memory effects anymore, having a battery and power cable plugged into a laptop for extended periods of time will put a wear and tear effect on the battery, meaning when the battery is fully charged it will drain itself to protect itself from overcharging; it will continue that cycle over and over again. Protect your batteries and don't have it in your laptop unless you're on the go, go.
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xyem: I've never heard this claim before so I went and checked it out and this doesn't seem to be true.

Laptop batteries are damaged by 2 things: the drain/recharge cycle and heat - as they cause the internal structure to warp/break down.

So leaving the battery in while on mains power doesn't damage it because of being topped up (I've actually read somewhere that you aren't supposed to let Lithium batteries drain below 50% or something anyway..), it is being damaged by the heat generated by the device. Usually, if you have it plugged in, it is on for longer and thus, hotter for longer.

Bear in mind this was just a quick 10 minutes of Googling, but it makes sense based on my other knowledge of how these batteries work. Please point me to a correction if it is wrong! :)
I try to not word things in a techy sort of way by draining I ment discharge which is always happening with Li-ion batteries no matter what, the cycle is always there; yes you should never EVER fully drain a Li-ion battery to 0% whether it be a phone, laptop or anything with a Li-ion battery you should always try to charge the device at 10% because it will damage the cells. Yes you can remove the battery from your laptop while it is plugged in for extended periods of time but always keep your batteries above 10%.

Most of my knowledge about batteries is from when I worked at Sony Canada, since Sony produces the most batteries in the world I would bet the info they provided me was accurate though things have changed since then it has been years since I have worked there and to be honest, I don't know if the current Li-ion batteries are cobalt based or phosphorus, if they are phosphorus than the lifespan of the batteries would be 6x better than the cobalt based Li-ion battery.

cobalt based Li-ion is good for up to 3 years or 500-600 charge cycles which ever comes first (charge,drain,charge = 1 cycle)
phosphorus Li-ion is good up to 6-8 years I think <- that could be inaccurate it could very well be 3 years as well due to cell degradation, but charge cycles are 3000-4000

hope this is a little more clear now



Sactravas
Posted July 18, 2013
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Sactravas: .. snippity ..
Thanks for the additional information.
Posted July 18, 2013
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Sactravas: .. snippity ..
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xyem: Thanks for the additional information.
NP, hope its useful for you and others
Posted July 19, 2013
Okay, guys, I took my machine completely apart! The fan really is dead. It won't budge a bit, no matter what I do with it. However, I now have a second question.

How can you tell if the processor has heat damage by looking at it? I've noticed that most of the heat seems focused in that area.
Posted July 19, 2013
I'm going to piggyback this thread to ask my own question: I'm charging my laptop about twice a day, and leave it plugged in when I'm playing a game. Is this ok? Is there such a thing as charging too much/often? I don't leave it plugged in overnight, but it'll stay hooked up to the wall for a good three hours usually.
Posted July 19, 2013
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nightrunner227: Okay, guys, I took my machine completely apart! The fan really is dead. It won't budge a bit, no matter what I do with it. However, I now have a second question.

How can you tell if the processor has heat damage by looking at it? I've noticed that most of the heat seems focused in that area.
What type of CPU are you using ?

Unless it is a very severe case of overheating ( where in fact the pcb would have started to actually get brown ) , a visual examination usually won't tell you anything on the health of the CPU. All you may see are indications on the amount of overheating it took ( the state of the thermal paste may give you a clue )

That's the frustrating bit : all the operation to replace the fan ( and don't forget, if it's the fan of the CPU cooler and if you dissassemble that cooler from the CPU, to change the thermal paste ) is quite a lot of work and may or may not yield satisfactory results. Now, imho, it's worth giving it a try.

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sauvignon1: I'm going to piggyback this thread to ask my own question: I'm charging my laptop about twice a day, and leave it plugged in when I'm playing a game. Is this ok? Is there such a thing as charging too much/often? I don't leave it plugged in overnight, but it'll stay hooked up to the wall for a good three hours usually.
Your battery's life expectancy is, as a matter of fact, made of charge/discharge cycles. So yes, the more you load/use it, the more you "eat" its life expectancy. Problem is : the quality of batteries varies enormously, so the impact may or may not be noticeable. Some battries are meant to last 500 cycles , some 4000...

As for leaving the laptop plugged all the time, we all do it. And it slowly kills our batteries and our power adaptators. For batteries, the manufacturer may have included an application to refresh the battery. Running it from time to time will somehow protect the battery. ". For the power adaptator, evey hour plugged erodes its life expectancy. Again, some adaptators have a 10 years life expectancy, some only 2...
Post edited July 19, 2013 by Phc7006
Posted July 19, 2013
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nightrunner227: How can you tell if the processor has heat damage by looking at it? I've noticed that most of the heat seems focused in that area.
CPUs have a protective killswitch function that forces the entire system to shut down when the processor reaches a certain temperature, which is usually somewhere around the 100°C (212°F) mark, so the heat is just a sign of the CPU operating rather than being damaged.

As Phc7006 already said, replacing the fan is pretty arduous, but since you've got the laptop disassembled already and hence most of the work, you might as well give it a shot. It shouldn't be too difficult: in addition to the replacement fan (a couple of dollars, just make sure that it's compatible) you'll need a syringe of thermal paste which costs a couple of bucks - a syringe is good for a few goes, so it doesn't matter if you cock it up the first time around, which you probably won't - and something to clean the old paste off (rubbing alcohol, turpentine and WD-40 seem to be the most popular options, in descending order).
Posted July 19, 2013
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Phc7006: The usual suspect is a fan having failed.
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nightrunner227: Bingo. One of them isn't going at all
One? Are there several fans in your laptop? Usually I see them having just one, at least the ones I've seen. I haven't look inside my monstrous ASUS G75VW yet, though.

Doesn't the system give any kind of "fan error" during the boot? My old laptop gave such error and shut it down instantly, when the fan failed. It seems odd the system would even let you boot to Windows, if there is a fan failure.

Also, since you mentioned that you already tried canned pressure air to blow out dust, be careful with it. The old laptop fan failure I mentioned above, I actually broke it by blowing canned air into the fan at full speed. Is obviously spun too fast, breaking it. So, either keep the fan immobile with a toothpick or something when you blow air at it, or only very short and controlled bursts.

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AlKim: As Phc7006 already said, replacing the fan is pretty arduous, but since you've got the laptop disassembled already and hence most of the work, you might as well give it a shot. It shouldn't be too difficult: in addition to the replacement fan (a couple of dollars, just make sure that it's compatible) you'll need a syringe of thermal paste which costs a couple of bucks - a syringe is good for a few goes, so it doesn't matter if you cock it up the first time around, which you probably won't - and something to clean the old paste off (rubbing alcohol, turpentine and WD-40 seem to be the most popular options, in descending order).
Are you sure the thermal paste replacement is really needed, on a laptop? At least if I recall reading the instructions for e.g. Lenovo ThinkPad T400 fan replacement, I don't think they mentioned anything about having to apply thermal paste anywhere. The fan seemed to be a normal FRU that you can replace at will.

The first thing of course is to google for the hardware maintenance manual for your laptop, it should tell the needed maintenance steps, also when replacing FRUs.
Post edited July 19, 2013 by timppu
Posted July 19, 2013
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Phc7006: For the power adaptator, evey hour plugged erodes its life expectancy. Again, some adaptators have a 10 years life expectancy, some only 2...
Hmm, I've yet to have a laptop power adaptor die like that, even from the oldest laptops I have. One adaptor died, but it was a mechanical failure (the cord became broken/loose, I had apparently twisted it to the wrong direction when I disconnected it and packed away, all those years). Those adaptors have mostly been charging 24/7, at my work for example.

I personally don't see any reason not to have the laptop power adaptor plugged in all the time. Constantly plugging it in and out probably kills it mechanically faster than keeping it connected all the time ever could, and it is probably the easiest component of a laptop to replace anyway. :)
Post edited July 19, 2013 by timppu
Posted July 19, 2013
If you change only the fan, without removing the heatsink, then it's not necessary to apply thermal paste. However since it's already taken apart, you might as well clean the processor and apply a new thermal paste. Because manufacturers usually use low-grade, cheap paste.
Posted July 19, 2013
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sauvignon1: I'm going to piggyback this thread to ask my own question: I'm charging my laptop about twice a day, and leave it plugged in when I'm playing a game. Is this ok? Is there such a thing as charging too much/often? I don't leave it plugged in overnight, but it'll stay hooked up to the wall for a good three hours usually.
I take a pragmatic stance on my smartphone's, laptop's, tablet's, electric toothbrush's, shaver's etc. batteries: I don't really try to "maintain" them in any way, especially when they are easily replaceable (my tablet's battery unfortunately isn't). Ok at some point I was using my ASUS G75VW without the battery (just using the charger as power), but now I don't care even about that.

I see it the same way like the battery/accumulator in my car: do I try to figure out what is the best way to use it to increase its life-expectancy? No, I just use it the way I see fit. If it ever becomes non-functional, I'll just replace it (or if the battery can't be replaced, replace the whole car :)).

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blotunga: If you change only the fan, without removing the heatsink, then it's not necessary to apply thermal paste. However since it's already taken apart, you might as well clean the processor and apply a new thermal paste. Because manufacturers usually use low-grade, cheap paste.
Ok, that sounds plausible. I was talking about only replacing the faulty fan unit.
Post edited July 19, 2013 by timppu
Posted July 19, 2013
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timppu: I see it the same way like the battery/accumulator in my car: do I try to figure out what is the best way to use it to increase its life-expectancy? No, I just use it the way I see fit. If it ever becomes non-functional, I'll just replace it (or if the battery can't be replaced, replace the whole car :)).
I agree. My laptop is basically a like desktop with UPS. What I mean is that it's almost always plugged in, and the battery is mostly reserve in case the power fluctuates etc. I rarely use it from battery, but for a 2 year old G73 it's holding ok.
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General discussion (archive)Computer Help Please! Urgent.(32 posts)solved(32 posts)solved
(32 posts)solved