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General discussion (archive)Compulsive min-maxing in RPG games(191 posts)(191 posts)
(191 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 30, 2011
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Landeril: Elder Scrolls have both dump stats and skills. <_< Alchemy was fun. :D

VTM was another with pretty crappy dump stats.

and I get the thing about playing something purely for the points. <_<

I play a Tremere 3rd Gen for the Blood Magic in VTM
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GameRager: Alchemy was fun yeah collecting plants, carrying the gear around or going back to where you stored it, etc...still making potions and naming them weird names was fun.
I just preferred Enchantment
Posted May 30, 2011
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mystral: They'll always exist but if you make all stats important in some way, then at least a min-maxer will miss on some stuff. That, in turn, will make min-maxing less attractive.

A very stupid or very ugly fighter in Arcanum, for instance, does miss out on a lot of stuff.
The key, in computer games anyway, is to do base stats checks as well as skill checks.
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GameRager: Give the devs the money and time needed to make such changes to make every stat count as much as possible or in differing ways depending on how you put points into them and you'll be all set.
You don't need that much money, though you do need lots of time.

I'll refer you to this game which seems, according to the developers, to be the next Arcanum in terms of gameplay.
They've spent a long time polishing the game, but as an indie studio that still hasn't released its first game I doubt they have much of a budget.
Posted May 30, 2011
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jepsen1977: The only JRPG I own is Septerra Core but haven't played it yet. But if you know of other JRPGs for PC then please let me know. My dislike for JRPGs is more out of ignorance on my part and I'm always looking for a good RPG.
Some good ones recently ported to PC emulators(legal ones I mean) would be the Mana series....Secret of Mana/etc.
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GameRager: Give the devs the money and time needed to make such changes to make every stat count as much as possible or in differing ways depending on how you put points into them and you'll be all set.
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mystral: You don't need that much money, though you do need lots of time.

I'll refer you to this game which seems, according to the developers, to be the next Arcanum in terms of gameplay.
They've spent a long time polishing the game, but as an indie studio that still hasn't released its first game I doubt they have much of a budget.
And to the execs, time is money as they have to pay people and utilities while the devs work ever longer.

Also, that game seems nice....but damn all DAT SAND.
Post edited May 30, 2011 by GameRager
Posted May 30, 2011
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mystral: You don't need to play one or the other. Your PC can also stay neutral and either play a combat specialist or a thief.

The most fun I had in any playthrough was with a diplomat character who recruited NPCs to do the fighting, and resolved most quest peacefully by convincing people to give him what he wanted.
For that you only need very high charisma, max persuasion, high intelligence and possibly above average beauty. That should even leave you with some points to experiment with other stuff.
I definitely need to play Arcanum at some point, it sounds so much like the kind of game I would love. :) Though it'll have to wait until after the weekend, since I'm going off LARPing Thursday-Sunday. :D Yarr piratin' it up!
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Bodkin: Then choose the third way - Swordsman with great talking :) Max this is quite easy, so you will still have few point's for tech/magick.

How i miss my strong but inteligent ogre, though he talk like an idiot - because the background trait.
Don't normally go for the fighty types, but this sounds like I would be able to make the fighter-type I would like. :D
Post edited May 30, 2011 by FlintlockJazz
Posted May 30, 2011
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mystral: The problem is that instead of punishing both min maxed and average characters in different ways (min-maxed miss out on stuff, average are less good in combat), most game developers now favor min maxers (like for instance removing base stat checks from the new fallout games, allowing Charisma to be a dump stat with no consequence).
Arcanum and Fallout are the only games I can think of that actually punish a character for using a dump-stat. All other systems even Baldur's Gate quitely encourage it. KOTOR for example had several dump-stats depending on your class. KOTOR2 tried to change that by allowing your party to become Jedi except for the droids of course. T3 and HK-47 still happily ignored Charisma. I guess RPG makers do cater to the Munchkins, possibly because they know they are the ones who will replay games endlessley to find the perfect build.
Posted May 30, 2011
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mystral: The problem is that instead of punishing both min maxed and average characters in different ways (min-maxed miss out on stuff, average are less good in combat), most game developers now favor min maxers (like for instance removing base stat checks from the new fallout games, allowing Charisma to be a dump stat with no consequence).
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Delixe: Arcanum and Fallout are the only games I can think of that actually punish a character for using a dump-stat. All other systems even Baldur's Gate quitely encourage it. KOTOR for example had several dump-stats depending on your class. KOTOR2 tried to change that by allowing your party to become Jedi except for the droids of course. T3 and HK-47 still happily ignored Charisma. I guess RPG makers do cater to the Munchkins, possibly because they know they are the ones who will replay games endlessley to find the perfect build.
Baldur's gate does encourage it. Because you get penalty's for stats. Stats effect your characters HP, Magic, and Saves.
Posted May 30, 2011
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mystral: The problem is that instead of punishing both min maxed and average characters in different ways (min-maxed miss out on stuff, average are less good in combat), most game developers now favor min maxers (like for instance removing base stat checks from the new fallout games, allowing Charisma to be a dump stat with no consequence).
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Delixe: Arcanum and Fallout are the only games I can think of that actually punish a character for using a dump-stat. All other systems even Baldur's Gate quitely encourage it. KOTOR for example had several dump-stats depending on your class. KOTOR2 tried to change that by allowing your party to become Jedi except for the droids of course. T3 and HK-47 still happily ignored Charisma. I guess RPG makers do cater to the Munchkins, possibly because they know they are the ones who will replay games endlessley to find the perfect build.
True, but Planescape also did stat check in conversation, so a stupid, ugly and unwise fighter will miss out on a lot of stuff and play a very different game from a wise, clever and pretty wizard.

There were also some stat checks in dialog in KotOR 1&2 IIRC, mostly wisdom and intelligence. So you could miss out on some interesting options.
Plus the stat system used in KotOR or NWN means that you can't take a stat too low. All of them will be at least slightly below average if you're a plain human. So you can't min-max all that much.
Posted May 30, 2011
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mystral: Plus the stat system used in KotOR or NWN means that you can't take a stat too low. All of them will be at least slightly below average if you're a plain human. So you can't min-max all that much.
True but you can leave them at 8 I think and never buff them, essentially making them dump stats. I think the worst possible example of the munchkins perfect game is Fallout 3. You can leave the vault with 1 Charisma and 10 intelligence ensuring you get the maximum skill points. Once you get to level 20 you can then take the almost perfect perk and get 9 in every stat. If you have been a good munchkin you will then go and get all the bobbleheads to make all stats 10 and all skills 100.
Posted May 30, 2011
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GameRager: *Cough* Arcanum *Cough cough*
Even the much lauded arcanum had it's dump stat (beauty - sure if you were too ugly some NPCs would threaten to attack.... unless you apologized for being horrible which always worked)

To the person who can't decide between magic and tech - magic is 'better' in that it's much more versatile and the power curve is better. Tech ends up roughly similar in power level but starts out much weaker and is somewhat less versatile (though as a plus you can make tech items for your teammates).

Overall magic will make for an easier game (especially for a new player) but they are both viable so go with your gut on whatever you think is more interesting.
Posted May 30, 2011
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Mr.Spatula: To the person who can't decide between magic and tech - magic is 'better' in that it's much more versatile and the power curve is better. Tech ends up roughly similar in power level but starts out much weaker and is somewhat less versatile (though as a plus you can make tech items for your teammates).
There is so much underused potential in tech. I highly advise you check out Shadowrun. My dream is to have CDProjekt make a proper Shadowrun RPG.
Posted May 30, 2011
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Mr.Spatula: To the person who can't decide between magic and tech - magic is 'better' in that it's much more versatile and the power curve is better. Tech ends up roughly similar in power level but starts out much weaker and is somewhat less versatile (though as a plus you can make tech items for your teammates).
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Delixe: There is so much underused potential in tech. I highly advise you check out Shadowrun. My dream is to have CDProjekt make a proper Shadowrun RPG.
Would it be turn-based and stat-heavy or would it be The Witcher in the Future?
Posted May 30, 2011
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Mr.Spatula: To the person who can't decide between magic and tech - magic is 'better' in that it's much more versatile and the power curve is better. Tech ends up roughly similar in power level but starts out much weaker and is somewhat less versatile (though as a plus you can make tech items for your teammates).
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Delixe: There is so much underused potential in tech. I highly advise you check out Shadowrun. My dream is to have CDProjekt make a proper Shadowrun RPG.
Play Dungeon Fighter.

Tech and Magic pretty much even out there. A Good Battle Mage can kick a Rangers tail(Rangers use Tech there)
Posted May 30, 2011
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JudasIscariot: Would it be turn-based and stat-heavy or would it be The Witcher in the Future?
I would not be opposed to a Witcher in the near-possible future.
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Landeril: Tech and Magic pretty much even out there. A Good Battle Mage can kick a Rangers tail(Rangers use Tech there)
Sounds like Phatansy Star. Not really what I am looking for. Check out Shadowrun it really is a unique setting and there are some excellent books.
Post edited May 30, 2011 by Delixe
Posted May 30, 2011
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JudasIscariot: Would it be turn-based and stat-heavy or would it be The Witcher in the Future?
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Delixe: I would not be opposed to a Witcher in the near-possible future.
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Landeril: Tech and Magic pretty much even out there. A Good Battle Mage can kick a Rangers tail(Rangers use Tech there)
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Delixe: Sounds like Phatansy Star. Not really what I am looking for. Check out Shadowrun it really is a unique setting and there are some excellent books.
Read the books. And no. Unlike PS. in Dungeon Fighter you get ONE type. You can't use Magic if your a ranger. And you can't fight up close very well if your a mage.

Six Classes

Male and Female Gunner
Fighter
Mage
Priest
Slayer

Slayers fight with Swords, Fighters with their fists. Priests have holy magic and Mages have black magic
Posted May 30, 2011
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Landeril: Read the books. And no. Unlike PS. in Dungeon Fighter you get ONE type. You can't use Magic if your a ranger. And you can't fight up close very well if your a mage.
In Shadowrun you can't be a mage without buying a magic stat. That limits your physical stats and your resources. Mages also have to worry about essense. Every piece of cyberware you install lowers your magic stat. You can't be a jack of all trades character in Shadowrun.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Compulsive min-maxing in RPG games(191 posts)(191 posts)
(191 posts)