this article got me to thinking about cheating in games.
There are many different types of cheating, like putting in cheat codes, running a separate program to sort of hack the the game, creating a map and stacking the odds in your favor. But this kind of cheating.. I don't think so much is cheating. The players were using the buggy maps that the developers made. It's like "oh, even though you CAN walk up those stairs and snipe everyone, we don't want you to, that's cheating."
That's a little ridiculous. now, I've never played MGO, but to be honest with you, I'm getting tired of people getting kicked/banned for playing a game. If you guys didn't want them to get to those areas and do those things, you should have just coded it out. It's a goddamn console game for goodness sake. You think someone went and hacked their code to just put an aimbot in MGS4? pfft..
part of playing a game, is using everything within your power to beat it. If a game doesn't challenege you, or test you in some way, it's more of a television show than a game.
Anyway, my point is, is that if you allow a gamer to do something, and then slap their hand because you didn't actually want them to do it, you're a shitty game company. Write better code, build better maps. There's no room for mistakes in this day and age, because someone, somewhere, will use it in ways other than intended, and then all of a sudden your game is broken.
Maybe it's a testament to better beta testing.. I mean, I certainly would prefer a bug free game on day 0. I think Blizzard and Valve are two game companies to blame for other game companies following a model of "release and patch."

I'm with you on that, Weclock. There's no doubt they're exploiting something that wasn't meant to be part of the gameplay but instead of banning people over it, fix your goddamned game!

Well I can see why they got banned. Glitching through walls isn't exactly in the same sense as walking up the stairs but I agree that banning them doesn't really fix the problem.
Oh and I have to disagree on the Valve/Blizzard "release and patch." If anything we can blame Valve for introducing episode gaming which is just another word for we would like more money for less please. But their games (Valve in particular) seem to be always immaculately tested. Or at least thats the feeling I get from playing them as well as from the developer commentary in some of the more recent Valve products.

I'd like to point to Half-Life 2 as their release and patch scheme. As I was one of the many who fit the system requirements but yet could not play due to poor development, and only after being patched was it fixed. I'd also like to point out Team Fortress 2, which is very much an incomplete game, and is currently broken (don't tell me it's even, some classes have alternate weapons and some don't it's brokeedddd). I might be wrong about Blizzard actually doing the release and patch themselves, but I believe many MMO companies would look at their model and believe that they could do a release and patch.

Again like in the thread regarding UT3 vs UT2k4 we seem to be in entirely different camps. ;) I myself never had any problems with HL2 at launch (which isn't to say that no one did but for me it ran just fine). Oh and I never actually played TF2 pass the few months after the release so i wouldnt know how balanced it is right now, if I was to guess seeing as some classes have already been patched with extra content not very so we at least do agree there. But if I understand correctly this thread isnt so much about balance of the existing content as it is about how playable that which is already there is and in that regard I think (I'm assuming here though as I said I havent played TF2 recently) it is playable.Have to agree on this one, The best example would be Warhammer online where they had to cut a sizeable chunk of content because they just couldn't handle the development costs. Thus an incomplete game into which they're now adding content. But again I have to disagree on the point being that in order to do things like Blizzard you just simply have to be Blizzard, no other company except a limited few would be able to pul something akin to how they usually do things.

I could not disagree more with your speaking ill of Valve. In the interest of full disclosure, I am somewhat of a Valve fanboy but that's only because they give so much love to their audience. So I'll tackle each of you haters' points of contention in no particular order.
First of all I would take the minimum system requirements worth a grain of salt. Minimum means you turn down practically all graphical settings down as low as they get THEN technically the game is playable. The recommended requirements are more like the minimum in order for you to play the game acceptably. If you want a decent experience bump up your specs a few notches from what's recommended. Companies lie, you just have to accept that reality.
As for map glitches, I'd say that Valve playtests and polish their maps very thoroughly. Did everyone forget how TF2 took a decade to be released? I think it's unfair to say that Blizzard or Valve are careless in releasing their content. Realistically, people are just too damned creative at exploiting systems. There's really no way to catch every single glitch or bug until you release it to the masses who get really devious in trying to break the game. Overall, there have been few obvious exploits in Valve products that are present at release. That is unless you set out specifically to find them.
But even if there are glitches, I don't understand the idea of condemning a developer for continuing to support their project. I guess it's a difference in philosophy. Personally I love it when a company like Valve continues to update and release new content. It refreshes the experience for me. Some people may prefer a self contained "perfectly balanced" game, which I've yet to experience. I would even say that without perpetual balancing and updating there can be no such thing. Which leads us back to the need for public testing beyond beta.
Balance is a very delicate issue to maintain. And people who claim that TF2 is unbalanced are simply unwilling to adapt. I agree that it jars you a little to find your favorite class nerfed somehow, but it just forces you to strategize differently. In general, it's all for the best in the end.

Certainly it was true that it was just fine upon release, as a complete game, but their slowly patching new abilities for classes supports the belief of "release now, patch later."
Anyway, I suppose the main point of the thread really is, if you don't want people to exploit weaknesses in your game, don't allow for weaknesses.

Exactly what I was saying... just more concisely.

I agree. Developers need to stop using paying customers as beta testers replacement. Best example that comes to mind is actually STALKER games. Both of which were completely and utterly broken upon release and to a degree still are.
Personally I wouldn't care so much about it if I didn't like the setting so much.

I actually surpassed the minimum system requirements. ;) Nobody is saying any map had glitches, what I'm referencing in my initial post, is the glitches in MGO I'm not saying a developer should not continue to support their product, but when someone exploits a glitch, instead of condemning that player to BAN haven, they should just let it pass. If they don't like that the person exploited it, they should just not allow for glitches. I enjoy new content too, I but I don't enjoy it when it blatantly breaks the game. Every time, every time they release a class update with new class achievements, all the servers are filled with douchebags who are all "i gotta get the new stuff!" Nobody takes the game seriously, and that's probably a good reason why Almak stopped playing long ago.Games have been keeping balance for years before team fortress 2 came out, it's inexcusable. Just like it's inexcusable that the source engine can't properly handle reflections. That's technology older thatn Unreal Tournament 99 and Quake III. :(
Now, I don't hate Valve, I have their entire back catalogue. Check it on my steam ID, but I can criticize them, and I think we should be critical of them as well. I mean, if you let them slide on one game mechanic, then you'll be letting the next thing slide, and everything will keep sliding until the games people want and expect from the company are just pure shit. Without a proper demand, they can't fill the our needs. And you know what happens to companies like that? they become Bioware and Bethesda. Nerfing their game for console players.No, I'm complaining that using that specific model of releasing class updates slowly encourages other developers to "release now, patch later."

Does the Source engine not do reflections? I'd like to think it's more of an artistic decision to not reflect Gordon to the player. Or perhaps it's more CPU intensive than it's worth? Because if portals in Portal contain entire other instances of the room, I'm sure a simple reflective mirror is more than possible with the Source engine.
But I dunno about the balance of TF2... it's pretty subjective. Sure it's annoying to play on public servers where everyone goes the class of the day just to acquire acheivements, but that usually dies down within a couple of weeks after a class update. Also how seriously do you want to play?
If you just wanna have fun, I always find some crazy scenarios or impromptu rules that people are willing to play along with for a few rounds. Like everyone being Spies and cloaking at the beginning of the round to mess with the other team. Or going with nothing but Medics and Heavies to build a virtually impenetrable wall of flying bullets.
But If you want to play seriously, you gotta find some private servers where everyone plays to win.
Also I think the new weapons offer new ways of playing but they never really replace any of the original weapons. Valve does a superb job of giving and taking. Again this is all subjective, but I sincerely see no serious wrong doing here.

I think its more of an aesthetic as well as a gameplay choice. In game you can not see the actual body of the protagonist, nor is it actually fully rendered (those that use garrys mod have an idea what the actual player render looks like in HL2 and its nowhere near detailed enough to warrant reflecting). Plus with the body fully rendered it would alter the gameplay, since than it would have to interact with the environment properly and that's a whole different shtick that doesn't always work out as intended (look at Dark Messiah for example).

The real issue is that it is not possible to put a mirror in the game, the best you could do is like a T.V. screen with a camera behind it, but even then it's not going to be a true reflection. Throughout all of the Source games there are no mirrors, If there is a mirror, it's been smashed. Everyone in Half-Life 2 is a vampire! Anyway.. It's really odd that they couldn't even do something like reflections, even if they chose not to implement it in the game. Ala the inclusion of Phong prior to any source game actually using it. There's no point to having them not include mirrors, especially seeing as they could just simply not use it. Let the modders use it. Can you imagine how insane Counter-Strike source maps would be if they had a house of mirrors? that'd be fun as shit. You know why it hasn't been done? Because it's not possible in the source engine. Why? I guess Valve doesn't want us to have mirrors.

Cheating is bad...