We're not in disagreement.

Damn, 8pm, I'm gonna miss the conference on that day. Not that I particularly care about TW3 details (I already know I'm gonna buy the game, so in fact I'm trying to avoid any spoilers at all) but I really wanted to know about this new GOG project.

Any chance we might expect some new partners as well? I would really like to see Sega or Microsoft on board.

I don't see this discussion as being an argument. Nobody is attacking anyone. also there is no pressing need for us to resolve this topic today.

as far as I'm concerned, there is a very distorted perception of Valve among many on this forum. I have no love for Valve or Steam. they do a lot of things I do not agree with. however, I don't agree with the accusations leveled against them surrounding price. it was bundlers, not Steam, that have caused indie games' _bundle_ prices to slip. even then, pricier bundles still sell, and indie games still sell on stores. it wasn't even bundlers putting the prices low but that there are so many bundlers now, attracted to the big payday of each bundle, and the fact that a bundle will sell nearly anything. the problem is not just with Steam's actions but rather that the novelty is wearing off and the economy isn't what it once was. it is also I think that many indie games do the same thing, use the same tactics to sell, and in many cases being unique or quirky isn't enough anymore. you need a certain amount of polish and originality to your game backing you up. the less originality you have the more presentation and meat you need. this is a broader problem with the games industry that I think has been caused by the for push ever-greater graphics. but that's another story. and none of these price arguments have anything to do with "AAA" hypetrain titles. their prices remain the same. those games issues are as much caused by their own marketers.
I don't think it's Valve's desire to destroy the pricing structure to something unsustainable. they are a store, a retailer, a merchant, if this was what they were doing they would immediately kneejerk to that and force things the other way. clearly their data has not shown them anything that worries them enough in this specific regard, and all they know is that things are still good and they can still operate the way they are right now. Valve also isn't your typical corporate giant, and they aren't going to piss everything straight to hell just for a few extra dollars today. I think that Valve's ultimate goal is to get the price of "AAA" and indie titles to become something more even. as for peoples accounts problems that you hear about, you have to keep in mind that Steam has grown beyond Valve's control. and Valve has its own worries for Steam's future, perhaps they feel that they cannot afford problems that might be caused by problem accounts were they to increase in number, given the things that cause them to worry. yes, I do find the stories of peoples' accounts getting banned for simple things with no recourse or limits to be very worrisome. my allegiance is to gog of course, but without Valve we would all much worse for it, you must understand this.

Deepsilver has several recent titles on GOG. Risen series for example.

Yes, Deep Silver is the most recent publisher I believe. Hopefully that means Metro 2033 will show up soon.

Getting back on topic, I still lean most towards the following below. (Personally I'd enjoy seeing one of the first two most of all, but the third may be most important to GOG's future. At least we know it isn't "Early Access".)

Remember some of the phrasing that was used here, with "galaxy of possibilities" - http://gogcom.tumblr.com/post/87110712553/mark-the-date-in-your-calendars-june-5-6-00pm

- - - a way to play many GOG games' multiplayer easily. I don't know how all that works, if GOG could make setting up a (for example) Dungeon Keeper multiplayer game any easier, but from what I've seen on game forums it appears people tend to have problems trying to set up DOSBox multiplayer. Maybe it's relevant with multiplayer games like Carmageddon Reincarnation and Wasteland 2 coming. My final hope related to this is that we see Homeworld from Gearbox appear, even if G has little interest in bringing their other titles (though maybe that's just wishful thinking because "galaxy" was used in the blog post).

- - - teaming up with another emulation service to bring even more classics. (I don't know if you can consider that a "project" or not but it would certainly be cool.)

- - - a highly-optional client or online/offline library system to make keeping track of games and bonus content much easier, probably incorporating the GOG downloader.

I'd like to see Slitherine on GOG, those Close Combat re-releases are ridiculously overpriced.

Did I stutter while writing? You didn't rephrase what I said, you literally ignored it.

Regardless, what you mentioned is called Self-interest, or Greed. The fact that you'd buy into a company so unethical it's driven them to use "the most profitable marketing scheme on the planet", a method so extraordinarily effect it's allowed groups like Standard Oil to run the world. These people would take the games for free if able, wouldn't ever stop to consider the long term damage, or simply don't care. It's this type of thinking which killed the Electric car.

Let me share a link with you about Steam users. As your likely aware, Steam (as per their EULA and Privacy Policy) collect all data on their users (computer stats, personal info, non-Steam game info, etc.) and they sell it. Another benefit to Steam's incessant data mining is the amount one can gather where the only requirement needed is a Steam account.
Since everyone basically know this, the following link is compiled from data on Steam users extracted from Steam's publicly domain.

(http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/04/introducing-steam-gauge-ars-reveals-steams-most-popular-games/)

Also note, almost 40% of the games purchased are never played, not even installed. With more data than what I've provided it can be shown that the people who don't buy into these bundled "specials" and maintain a limited amount of games play each at least once, and most on a regular basis. The greedy (or economically retarded) will purchase hundreds of cheap bargain discount games (which have been screwed out of some poor developer) just to pad their account, they won't even touch 95% of them. Hence the 40% rolling average, which is only so low due to the restrained and enlightened.

Do we need Valve?
Certainly, just as much as we need Origin, Uplay, or Live.

Are specials on games worthwhile?
Yes, like a retail store specials will attract customers who will then purchase items not on special, it evens out.

Is it (for the short term) beneficial to have such cheap bundles on Steam?
Yes, if a person is addicted to purchasing games like a junkie on crack.

Is it (long term) beneficial to have such cheap bundles on Steam?
No. Through out human history monopolisation is proven to bring change which is eventually detrimental to those around. It happens until there is no easy way to change it, something scientist call the "tipping point" or the "point of no return".

So when you say "Yep, we are retards for wanting to enjoy a game made by a company that is using the most profitable marketing scheme on the planet. We are retards for wanting to have fun, apparently, is what you are saying."

I say: "Most likely these people are uneducated, young, greedy, self centred, and probably spend the majority of their time poor."

And those people, including myself, are happy to be this way. The reason: We want to play these games. I am very well aware that when I "buy" a game from Steam, I am really renting it at retail cost, and I am aware that I do not own it. But you know what, for the time that I spend on games like Saint's Row, when compared to the money I spend on it, it is more than worth it.

If I go and see a movie, in my town, I am going to be spending between $10-25 per ticket, not counting any drinks, popcorn, snacks, etc. That means that an average 2 hour film costs me $5+ per hour. People may complain about that, but then they gladly do it again the next time a movie comes out that they want to see.

When I buy I game, whether it is a Steam exclusive title, or a GOG release, I don't spend more than 7.49 on it, unless it contains a ton of DLC, in which case, depending on my schedule I am willing to spend 12.99 on it.

My average play time for these games is a minimum of 7-10 hours. On more open-world games like Skyrim, Oblivion, Sleeping Dogs and the GTA series, I have racked up a few thousand hours on these games. Right now, I have over 700 hours logged into Oblivion, and I got it for 9.99 with all DLC. So, that means that I have paid 0.0143 CENTS per hour on that game. I paid 7.49 for Fallout New Vegas, and I have well over 150 Hours into it so far, and I plan on spending many more. That amounts to 0.05 Cents per hour, so far, and the more I play, the less per hour I paid.

It literally costs me more money per hour to read these forums than it does for me to buy these games.

Skyrim is a Steam-Only title, as is Oblivion (Now, anyway) as is Saints Row, and so many other games I have, and that is okay, because, even if I don't play more than 60% of the games that I own, it makes me feel happy that I have them. Let's average all the games I have purchased and activated on steam, which is currently over 400 games. Let's pretend that I paid an even $5.00 for those 400 games. That is $2000 on games. I have been a Steam account holder since 2009, so 2000 / 5 years (60 months) = $33.33 a month on games. I play an average of probably 8-10 hours a week, as an average minimum, making a total of around 40 hours a month. So, 33.33 / 40 = $0.83 per hour.

It costs me 83 cents per hour to play these games. Compared to the $5 or MORE per hour it costs to go see a movie. Our Cable bill here is $89 a month, we get 150+ channels, and we watch maybe 5-10 of those on a semi-regular basis. That means that we are paying about $8.90 per channel per month, if you don't count what we don't use. I watch MAYBE 4 hours per week of TV, and that is only because I get stuck with my family. 89 / 16 = $5.56 per hour to watch TV. And we only watch 10-15% of the channels we pay for.

$5.56 compared to $0.83. That means I can play any game in my vast collection of games for 7 hours, with what is now a near endless variety of gaming, for each hour that my family spends watching TV.

Do you see where I am going with this?

It may seem to people like you that people like me are idiots for spending money on games that we will never play, but MILLIONS more spend MILLIONS more on TV that they never watch. The difference? I can go at any time, night or day, from anywhere I want, and I can access every item that I pay for, even if I choose not to. You are limited to just a channel at a time, and once you have watched it, I hope you DVR'd it if you want to see it again.

And as far as the claims that Valve watches every thing you do on the computer, I say "so what"? So they track how much time I play a given game? So they look at what my PC Specs are? Who cares. They do NOT look at individual files, they do NOT track your history (The rumors have been proven false on many occasions), and they continue to make and sell and distribute games at prices that I can afford. They also do NOT sell personal information, other than what you provide them. Your name and email address are public from the day you created your email account. They do NOT sell your Credit Card information. The Data Mining they do is very justified, and they are very open about exactly what they do and do not take.

Do you think that they are lying to you? Then prove it, and become a millionaire. Think about it. With as much money as they make, and as much business they do, would it make sense for them to put themselves in a position of such obvious guilt?

So, please, name-caller, please. Explain to me exactly what damage a company like Steam does.
I can think of a few things... Let's see here. They have massive sales that brings, quite literally, millions of games into the homes of millions of people. They have opened there stores to things like Cryengine, and other full Game Engines, so that home users like me have the option to use them myself. (Yes, I am aware that you could go to Crytek directly, but Steam gets the advertising out there much more.) And they, in turn, force the entire market to reduce prices, which is great for an economy like USA at the moment, because while prices keep going up, I don't make any more money now than I did when gas was 2.69, not 3.69.

Please, I beg you, let bygones be bygones. If you feel that Steam and Valve are "A bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes," then by all means, don't use it, and don't buy into it. But really, when you come here and bash them with useless information that loses all its weight as soon as it is given context, you really just make yourself look like an idiot.

P.S. I really am quite excited for Thursday. The reveal is going to be something to remember, as it always is.

P.P.S. Given the chance, I will always buy from GOG.com before Steam, but I refuse to join the haters, because, as I explained above, they are more than worth a look.

@Ebany

I'm pretty sure that Valve has never sold personal information.

@Zacron

There is never any justification for wholesale data mining. It doesn't matter if Valve doesn't abuse it right now, they can always abuse it in the future. In addition, the level of data mining they do and the level of access they give everybody through the Steam API means an impressive amount of casing of anybody can be done by anybody. Suppose you'd like to get something for your Steam account. suppose somebody else uses Steamworks to farm your inventory and usage habits, finds out that this item means a lot to you, and decides to milk you for every dime, when otherwise he would have sold it to you for market value? I'm not calling you stupid in this situation, but assume in this situation there is an emotional element, driven by your particular desire for this item whatever it is, and it would definitely be used against you.

maybe you want to join a clan for this or other game. maybe they see you don't play enough hours, maybe you are rejected on this sole basis.

and I don't agree with your pointing to DLC as a measure of value. all DLC has done is create content that otherwise would have been in the game, for the purpose of charging more in bad circumstances, and individually milk more out of people for content that would have been sold in an expansion pack in best circumstances. I am less opposed to DLC from indie games for obvious reasons, and I didn't like the response to The Pit, but by and large I consider DLC and especially the culture of it to be nothing but a problem.

and I would not say that they are open about what information they do and don't take. if you have a link that provides some details there, I'd like to see it. their wording in their legal page is very ambiguous, and where they used to openly state in it that the client collected data and sent it to valve when I checked it a while ago, they no longer provide that clarification, it is gone as of some update that happened at some point this I found when checking it last.

6 PM GMT aye? Aw frack! It would be 1 AM here. :(

You mean like people willing to pay $50+ for a retail copy of System Shock 2, despite it being available for ~$10? Or willing to pay pre-order price for The Witcher 3, simply for being TW3?

You mean like being denied entry on contests or GOG clubs due to reputation? Despite being a community member for a long time?

Am I the only one around here not giving a f*ck about The Witcher 3 ?

The Witcher 2 was lame and overhyped. I don't really like the hype around Witcher 3 as well. It will surely be a beautiful game, but then? I don't trust CD Projekt communication anymore (as well as the critics) after Witcher 2 huge disappointment. I think they should stop boasting off and concentrate about making a real game, not a beautiful-hdr-mature-boobs-wtf-RPG.

But I'm waiting for the announcements regarding GOG.com as I am a big supporter of this site.

Holy CRAP, your right! Didn't know a movie (well TV mini series) had been done, just found it titled The Hexer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hexer_%28film%29)

Apparently it got shockingly bad reviews too.

Still, Imagine it re-done by the crew from HBO doing Game of Thrones .... or even better, Cyberpunk 2077! k, now I need to go afk an calm down, maybe play some Delain.

This would be awesome!