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General discussion (archive)Bethesda - Elder Scrolls Anthology Announced(321 posts)(321 posts)
(321 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 02, 2013
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amok: It really depends on how you define RPG. As a Role Playing game, I consider Skyrim to be superior, even if you do not have the same number balancing and crunching as earlier Elder Scrolls. I have always considered the number crunching as a side line to RPG's.

What is important to me in a RPG it creating a certain character and growing that character in certain way and playing it in a certain way. Skyrim do allow this, and takes into account a lot of different play styles and modes of character creation. Especially if you think RPG's is just as much about allowing you to create your own hybrid classes, and not being forced into the classical Warrior / Mage / Rogue you tend to find. Oblivion also did this very well.

To me, a good RPG is all about player choice, and while a lot of it is skin deep, there is a lot of choices in Skyrim. Mostly it is about what to do an how to do it. The only thing I wished there was more of, it would be more grander consequences from your choices, but the assets required to make sure all permutations are consistent would be too tremendous to allow it.
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Crosmando: Number crunching is what RPG's are all about, if you don't have numbers governing the rules behind roleplaying, then it isn't roleplaying, it's LARPing, make-pretend.

That's why when you create your character in Daggerfall, you're given a huge, huge amount of attributes, skills, classes and stats to roll. But when you create one in say Skyrim, you are given the choice of gender, race and then a billion options to adjust the skin color and exact shape of their nose and jawline. ie completely cosmetic Barbie doll dress-up stuff.

An RPG can only be really judged based on how well it adapts or simulates a P&P adventure.
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JudasIscariot: >CRPG community

You mean the Codex, right? :P
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Crosmando: If I meant the dex specifically I would have included Morrowind as being crap :)
Last I recall, Morrowind was quite popular but I could be proven wrong as I am not good at gathering data to fit my pet theories :P
Posted August 02, 2013
They put MW threads in the Console part of the forum, but of course opinions are always varied on any game
Posted August 02, 2013
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Crosmando: They put MW threads in the Console part of the forum, but of course opinions are always varied on any game
Well, it did have a console port :P
Posted August 02, 2013
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AzureKite: You do roleplay in Skyrim. Combat and action mechanics may not be "throw the virtual dice", but I don't believe those and the character level-up are actually the primary traits of an RPG.
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Crosmando: Yes they are. Unless you have a fully realized stat system which governs how the player's character interacts with the world, it's just digital LARPing.

But that's essentially what the average Bethesda fanboy thinks an RPG is, they probably do not even know about tabletop RPGs played with pen, paper and dice. They like Bethesda games because they do not have stats as the primary governing force, so they can ~do anything~ without their character needing the skills to do so, they can go beat up anyone in the world from lvl 1 because of the dumb scaling system.

That's what your average Bethsoft fanboy is, they are manchildren who want to be ego-patted by the devs and told their the "Dragonborn" or Chosen One or whatever, and they can do anything. They don't want serious CRPGs with real difficulty and are based on character skill.

Like that Skyturd DLC Hearthfire, they are the type of gamers who think an RPG is being able to have a house in-game, farm wheat every day and bake bread, so they can make-believe they are actually living in a fantasy world. The type who would rather run around their backyard dressing up as a wizard shouting "Lightning bolt!" than play a proper game of D&D inside.
People roleplay differently. That's how it is.
Posted August 02, 2013
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Crosmando: Number crunching is what RPG's are all about, if you don't have numbers governing the rules behind roleplaying, then it isn't roleplaying, it's LARPing, make-pretend.
To you that is, and that's fine. It is how you like it. Personally I prefer Skyrim's approch, where the numbers are more hidden and I can immerse myself in the world. Hidden numbers also to me allows an approach more based on personal preferences, and not a need to achive "the ultimate build" (even though that may be fun also)

There are no definitions on RPG where the number crunching is the most important thing, and LRPG is Live action RPG, it do not quite fit. It is perfectly fine that you do not like this approach, but please do not make up definitions where you are the sole users, it makes conversations very difficult. (all games are make-pretend)

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Crosmando: That's why when you create your character in Daggerfall, you're given a huge, huge amount of attributes, skills, classes and stats to roll. But when you create one in say Skyrim, you are given the choice of gender, race and then a billion options to adjust the skin color and exact shape of their nose and jawline. ie completely cosmetic Barbie doll dress-up stuff.

An RPG can only be really judged based on how well it adapts or simulates a P&P adventure.
The difference is that in Daggerfall you make your character before you play, in Skyrim you make your character as you play. In Daggerfall you play the game with you pre-made character, just boosting stats as you go along, in Skyrim your character evolves with your gameplay.

I do not agree that CRPG's can only be judged by how much it simulates P&P games, digital games should do what they do best as it's own media (or you can also start argue that Action games should be judged on how well they simulate a film, for example)
Post edited August 02, 2013 by amok
Posted August 02, 2013
Okay, here's an example, this is Skyrim character generation:
http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/images/395316-1320932695.jpg

OMG LOOK AT ALL THOSE STATS!!!111


And here's DF:
http://www.oldgames.sk/images/oldgames/rpg/TES.Daggerfall/daggerfall-005.png
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JudasIscariot: Well, it did have a console port :P
Yes, and the game does have elements that suggest "consolization", for example aiming was clearly designed in DF for mouse, while in MW it seems to be both designed for gamepad and mouse, making MW combat feel more "automatic" and less precise while in DF you could use different types of melee attacks, and also aim them.
Post edited August 02, 2013 by Crosmando
Posted August 02, 2013
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Crosmando: Okay, here's an example, this is Skyrim character generation:
http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/images/395316-1320932695.jpg

OMG LOOK AT ALL THOSE STATS!!!111

And here's DF:
http://www.oldgames.sk/images/oldgames/rpg/TES.Daggerfall/daggerfall-005.png
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JudasIscariot: Well, it did have a console port :P
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Crosmando: Yes, and the game does have elements that suggest "consolization", for example aiming was clearly designed in DF for mouse, while in MW it seems to be both designed for gamepad and mouse, making MW combat feel more "automatic" and less precise while in DF you could use different types of melee attacks, and also aim them.
I'll agree that the combat in MW did feel a wee bit wonky when compared to Daggerfall (yes, I played both games).

Combat aside, at least the lore and the stats and skills were strong even if a couple of skills from Daggerfall didn't make it like climbing and riding, amongst others.
Posted August 02, 2013
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AzureKite: People roleplay differently. That's how it is.
That's not my point. Of course people like to "role play" differently. If you want to play a dexterous sneaky thief, or a dumb brutish barbarian, a charismatic singing bard, then your GM (or in the case of a computer game, the game itself) should accommodate that. Asking to be outside the rules that govern RP (whether in a tabletop or computer game) isn't acceptable. Unless you play all your computer games with noclip and godmode on.

However, it doesn't really matter, Skyrim is an action-adventure game not a real RPG.
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JudasIscariot: I'll agree that the combat in MW did feel a wee bit wonky when compared to Daggerfall (yes, I played both games).

Combat aside, at least the lore and the stats and skills were strong even if a couple of skills from Daggerfall didn't make it like climbing and riding, amongst others.
Passwall or Levitate, which is better and why?
Post edited August 02, 2013 by Crosmando
Posted August 02, 2013
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Crosmando: not a real RPG.
Your definition of a 'real RPG' being... ?
Posted August 02, 2013
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Pheace: Your definition of a 'real RPG' being... ?
Attempts to simulate a tabletop RPG, within a computer game.
Posted August 02, 2013
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Crosmando: not a real RPG.
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Pheace: Your definition of a 'real RPG' being... ?
I'm betting it has something to do with Scotsmen. XD
Posted August 02, 2013
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AzureKite: People roleplay differently. That's how it is.
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Crosmando: That's not my point. Of course people like to "role play" differently. If you want to play a dexterous sneaky thief, or a dumb brutish barbarian, a charismatic singing bard, then your GM (or in the case of a computer game, the game itself) should accommodate that. Asking to be outside the rules that govern RP (whether in a tabletop or computer game) isn't acceptable. Unless you play all your computer games with noclip and godmode on.

However, it doesn't really matter, Skyrim is an action-adventure game not a real RPG.
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JudasIscariot: I'll agree that the combat in MW did feel a wee bit wonky when compared to Daggerfall (yes, I played both games).

Combat aside, at least the lore and the stats and skills were strong even if a couple of skills from Daggerfall didn't make it like climbing and riding, amongst others.
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Crosmando: Passwall or Levitate, which is better and why?
Levitate as IIRC you could levitate your horse and carriage a la Santa Claus in Daggerfall.
Posted August 02, 2013
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Pheace: Your definition of a 'real RPG' being... ?
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Crosmando: Attempts to simulate a tabletop RPG, within a computer game.
So it should include level scaling, since any proper tabletop RPG has encounters to suit the players' level and number, right?
Posted August 02, 2013
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Not sure how I even get into these arguments
Posted August 02, 2013
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Crosmando: Not sure how I even get into these arguments
Not to be all 5th grade or anything but you did start one when you decided that Amok's gaming tastes were somehow inferior to yours. Of course, that's just how I see it and I am only one human being :P
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Bethesda - Elder Scrolls Anthology Announced(321 posts)(321 posts)
(321 posts)