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General discussion (archive)Being indie an excuse for crappy graphics?(167 posts)(167 posts)
(167 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted October 29, 2012
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Fenixp: I don't consider myself a graphics snob, but ther are games like Avernum that I just can't immerse and properly get into because of graphics. I like everything else about the games, I would love to play them so much, but always end up bored and losing interest, even tho everything is right - aside from graphics.
I personally find that the Infinity Engine is the biggest immersion killer I ever discovered. Animation, perspective, scaling. Everything is just "wrong" with it. It only worked for PS:T because that could have been a text adventure and still work and because Sigil was so wacky, you couldn't mess that up.

I always like to compare Fallout to those games. So similar superficially, but so, so much better if you take a proper look at it.
Posted October 29, 2012
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JudasIscariot: Forgive me for being a sales drone here but the appeal of Hotline Miami is not just in the graphics. The way the soundtrack oozes from your speakers/headphones while you're busy eliminating hostiles and the way colors change over time to reflect the ambience of the game..it's hard to describe it. The graphics are a small portion of Hotline Miami and, hence, you have to play it to believe it :D
Will you please stop? Assassin's Creed 3 is in tonight and I'm still working my through the games I purchased in September!
Posted October 29, 2012
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JudasIscariot: Forgive me for being a sales drone here but the appeal of Hotline Miami is not just in the graphics. The way the soundtrack oozes from your speakers/headphones while you're busy eliminating hostiles and the way colors change over time to reflect the ambience of the game..it's hard to describe it. The graphics are a small portion of Hotline Miami and, hence, you have to play it to believe it :D
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orcishgamer: Will you please stop? Assassin's Creed 3 is in tonight and I'm still working my through the games I purchased in September!
Me? Stop? Never :D
Posted October 29, 2012
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Adzeth: Hiring the wrong person is never bad for a project. There hasn't ever been a project that has failed completely because of an addition to the team that just messed around. Artists that work for free are always motivated, and don't leave projects at crucial times. It's always possible to just start again without any problems, and you can repeat the hiring of a free artist indefinitely and still keep people interested in the project. Artists are always ready to meet halfway, though that isn't even necessary since they already share the team's vision. Judging by what I've read and heard, all of the statements I just made are false.

A while ago I heard a company owner complain that hiring people is hard because hiring the wrong person can lead to the whole company going down.

..but I guess not being omniscient and hence not immediately knowing who to let get involved with your project is lazy. There are TONS of people who'd invest your money properly and make a lot of money for you, so there's no real reason not to give your savings to the guy who says that he'll invest 'em in a sure to pay off company. You know, because gamers really understand and have patience when you explain to 'em that your nice sounding indie title will be delayed for 4 years because of internal strife in the team. They'll also understand if you used to have nice looking shots on your site but release a game that doesn't look anything like it because the artist left.

Anyway, I don't think it's that simple.
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Red_Avatar: It's funny how you basically counter your own point: anyone can leave a project, even friends (ESPECIALLY friends) - that's the inherent risk of a project. Saying you shouldn't hire anyone just because they might leave is a laughable excuse if I ever heard one - that's why you do job interviews and find the right candidate. Maybe we should go to every company and tell the bosses that they should fire everyone and do it all themselves because, imagine, their employees might leave for a better job!

Seriously, loads of people would join a good project because they need to prove themselves, because they dream of being a game art designer, because they simply LOVE doing it. Yes, they may leave (especially if your project is run like shit and you don't properly support them they might) but that's a risk you take with anyone working on any project. Use your brains and have them sign something saying that they can't use any art they created for the game for anything else including their portfolio unless they stick with the project if you're that worried. Also, don't sit on your ass and have a standby in case something happens - work with TWO designers that each do different areas of the art (UI, animation, backdrops) so that if one leaves, the other could take over. THINK. Manage your project properly!

Honestly, indie devs don't have to be incompetent in how they run their project, you know. Sadly enough, many lack any business sense or street smarts - and trust me, hiring friends is a bad bad bad BAD thing to do. If you're that scared of taking your own project seriously and instead cripple part of it by not taking any risks, don't bother with the project in the first place. Oh ... and the weak excuses ... first it's about costing too much money, then when people offer to work for royalties, it's suddenly about not wanting "strangers" (*rolls eyes*) to be involved and then it's because they might leave ... wow, imagine that! It's one thing to reduce unnecessary risks, but a butt ugly game with barely any decent sounds or music is not something you sacrifice. Cutting corners doesn't do you any favours.
Apparently, you have no idea how legal issues work. Look at Fez. That whole project could have been shut down by ONE person who Phil Fish was having difficulty getting to sign off on. So yes, there ARE solid reasons to not hire some unknown with no backlog, credibility, known quantity, or even slightest inkling of said individual's personality. Especially when considering that a LOT of these teams consist of developers/designers who look at their games as their artistic expression.

So, what, you go to the trouble of making rookies sign legal documents that state that said unknown quantity has no rights to the end product BEFORE they even see if they'll mesh well, or if their style is suited TO their game? You know, since you seem to think they have so much time on their hands, in between designing, coding, fixing bugs, rushing to release so they can hit arbitrary target dates set by whichever platform they're releasing for, Microsoft Studios for XBLA, Sony for PSN, or WiiWare, Steam, etc. I'm not sure if you properly understand what embargo dates are, or how critical time IS to getting a game at that level released, especially if the team involved is working on their first product, and may or may not have an operating budget to begin with?

So where in the world do you think that a dev will find time to do mundane bullshit like interviews, legal proceedings, etc? You do realize that these teams are frequently maybe 1,2,3 person projects, right?
Posted October 29, 2012
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Red_Avatar: It's funny how you basically counter your own point: anyone can leave a project, even friends (ESPECIALLY friends) - that's the inherent risk of a project. Saying you shouldn't hire anyone just because they might leave is a laughable excuse if I ever heard one - that's why you do job interviews and find the right candidate. Maybe we should go to every company and tell the bosses that they should fire everyone and do it all themselves because, imagine, their employees might leave for a better job!

Seriously, loads of people would join a good project because they need to prove themselves, because they dream of being a game art designer, because they simply LOVE doing it. Yes, they may leave (especially if your project is run like shit and you don't properly support them they might) but that's a risk you take with anyone working on any project. Use your brains and have them sign something saying that they can't use any art they created for the game for anything else including their portfolio unless they stick with the project if you're that worried. Also, don't sit on your ass and have a standby in case something happens - work with TWO designers that each do different areas of the art (UI, animation, backdrops) so that if one leaves, the other could take over. THINK. Manage your project properly!

Honestly, indie devs don't have to be incompetent in how they run their project, you know. Sadly enough, many lack any business sense or street smarts - and trust me, hiring friends is a bad bad bad BAD thing to do. If you're that scared of taking your own project seriously and instead cripple part of it by not taking any risks, don't bother with the project in the first place. Oh ... and the weak excuses ... first it's about costing too much money, then when people offer to work for royalties, it's suddenly about not wanting "strangers" (*rolls eyes*) to be involved and then it's because they might leave ... wow, imagine that! It's one thing to reduce unnecessary risks, but a butt ugly game with barely any decent sounds or music is not something you sacrifice. Cutting corners doesn't do you any favours.
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LiquidOxygen80: Apparently, you have no idea how legal issues work. Look at Fez. That whole project could have been shut down by ONE person who Phil Fish was having difficulty getting to sign off on. So yes, there ARE solid reasons to not hire some unknown with no backlog, credibility, known quantity, or even slightest inkling of said individual's personality. Especially when considering that a LOT of these teams consist of developers/designers who look at their games as their artistic expression.

So, what, you go to the trouble of making rookies sign legal documents that state that said unknown quantity has no rights to the end product BEFORE they even see if they'll mesh well, or if their style is suited TO their game? You know, since you seem to think they have so much time on their hands, in between designing, coding, fixing bugs, rushing to release so they can hit arbitrary target dates set by whichever platform they're releasing for, Microsoft Studios for XBLA, Sony for PSN, or WiiWare, Steam, etc. I'm not sure if you properly understand what embargo dates are, or how critical time IS to getting a game at that level released, especially if the team involved is working on their first product, and may or may not have an operating budget to begin with?

So where in the world do you think that a dev will find time to do mundane bullshit like interviews, legal proceedings, etc? You do realize that these teams are frequently maybe 1,2,3 person projects, right?
I have no idea what this is about, really, but if you're talking about assigning copyright, that's fairly common to assign all copyright to one person or entity (that is usually controlled by one person) before accepting any of their contributions. It's the only real hangup with these kinds of things and it's pretty easy to avoid. Employment contracts will often specify "work for hire" terms for the same reasons.
Posted October 29, 2012
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zomgieee: Id suggest being AAA is an excuse for crappy gameplay.
A good example would be Far Cry 2.

Though I like the game's realism like weapon reliability and its map, I admit the is pretty much dull and nothing to do but the same shoot em up every mission and general emptiness of the game world.

If only it had more different stuff to do like hunting animals and make the world less empty. Far Cry 2 imo is a game just made for graphics and effects and nothing else since they were testing the Dunia engine.
Posted October 29, 2012
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zomgieee: Id suggest being AAA is an excuse for crappy gameplay.
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Elmofongo: A good example would be Far Cry 2.

Though I like the game's realism like weapon reliability and its map, I admit the is pretty much dull and nothing to do but the same shoot em up every mission and general emptiness of the game world.

If only it had more different stuff to do like hunting animals and make the world less empty. Far Cry 2 imo is a game just made for graphics and effects and nothing else since they were testing the Dunia engine.
I seem to remember there being wild animals (perhaps zebras) that i accidentaly mowed down. The worst thing about Far Cry 2 is that the bad guys turn up every few seconds and attack you. There's no way of a leisurely tour of the african scenery.

But the level editor is awesome, and easy to use.
Posted October 29, 2012
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Elmofongo: A good example would be Far Cry 2.

Though I like the game's realism like weapon reliability and its map, I admit the is pretty much dull and nothing to do but the same shoot em up every mission and general emptiness of the game world.

If only it had more different stuff to do like hunting animals and make the world less empty. Far Cry 2 imo is a game just made for graphics and effects and nothing else since they were testing the Dunia engine.
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gameon: I seem to remember there being wild animals (perhaps zebras) that i accidentaly mowed down. The worst thing about Far Cry 2 is that the bad guys turn up every few seconds and attack you. There's no way of a leisurely tour of the african scenery.

But the level editor is awesome, and easy to use.
yeah but there are no lions, elephants, gorillas,and girrafes to hunt.

they should have also put mini games like racing via car or glider.
Posted October 29, 2012
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gameon: I seem to remember there being wild animals (perhaps zebras) that i accidentaly mowed down. The worst thing about Far Cry 2 is that the bad guys turn up every few seconds and attack you. There's no way of a leisurely tour of the african scenery.

But the level editor is awesome, and easy to use.
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Elmofongo: yeah but there are no lions, elephants, gorillas,and girrafes to hunt.

they should have also put mini games like racing via car or glider.
Why do you want to hung lions, elephants, gorillas and giraffes? What is wrong with you?
Posted October 29, 2012
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gameon: I seem to remember there being wild animals (perhaps zebras) that i accidentaly mowed down. The worst thing about Far Cry 2 is that the bad guys turn up every few seconds and attack you. There's no way of a leisurely tour of the african scenery.

But the level editor is awesome, and easy to use.
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Elmofongo: yeah but there are no lions, elephants, gorillas,and girrafes to hunt.

they should have also put mini games like racing via car or glider.
I think there was a glider in far cry 1, but i don't remember any in 2.

Far cry 1 was alot more light hearted and cartoony. 2 went for realism. I thought they pulled it off, but i agree, there's not alot happening in the game world. It's an impressive gaming landscape nevertheless.
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Elmofongo: yeah but there are no lions, elephants, gorillas,and girrafes to hunt.

they should have also put mini games like racing via car or glider.
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langurmonkey: Why do you want to hung lions, elephants, gorillas and giraffes? What is wrong with you?
Never heard of the cabelas game series? (hunting games)
Post edited October 29, 2012 by gameon
Posted October 29, 2012
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Elmofongo: yeah but there are no lions, elephants, gorillas,and girrafes to hunt.

they should have also put mini games like racing via car or glider.
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gameon: I think there was a glider in far cry 1, but i don't remember any in 2.

Far cry 1 was alot more light hearted and cartoony. 2 went for realism. I thought they pulled it off, but i agree, there's not alot happening in the game world. It's an impressive gaming landscape nevertheless.
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langurmonkey: Why do you want to hung lions, elephants, gorillas and giraffes? What is wrong with you?
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gameon: Never heard of the cabelas game series? (hunting games)
No.
Posted October 29, 2012
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Elmofongo: yeah but there are no lions, elephants, gorillas,and girrafes to hunt.

they should have also put mini games like racing via car or glider.
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langurmonkey: Why do you want to hung lions, elephants, gorillas and giraffes? What is wrong with you?
Hey Red Dead Redemption can let me hunt Cougars, Bears, Wolves, Foxes, Boar etc. so why not this game?
Posted October 29, 2012
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gameon: I think there was a glider in far cry 1, but i don't remember any in 2.

Far cry 1 was alot more light hearted and cartoony. 2 went for realism. I thought they pulled it off, but i agree, there's not alot happening in the game world. It's an impressive gaming landscape nevertheless.


Never heard of the cabelas game series? (hunting games)
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langurmonkey: No.
I have to say, this gameplay video is actually quite sickening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-95u9BJbOcc#t=34s
Post edited October 29, 2012 by gameon
Posted October 29, 2012
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langurmonkey: Why do you want to hung lions, elephants, gorillas and giraffes? What is wrong with you?
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Elmofongo: Hey Red Dead Redemption can let me hunt Cougars, Bears, Wolves, Foxes, Boar etc. so why not this game?
Why do you want to hunt these animals

http://www.zooborns.com/.a/6a010535647bf3970b011168fcbe45970c-800wi

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_g3bmheQBEM/Te5Lp6YWLTI/AAAAAAAAFFs/nMJpgtDIJpI/s1600/baby-elephant.jpg

http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/1_sleeping-on-mother.jpg

http://awesomeplaygrounds.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bear-cub.jpeg

instead of hunting these creatures

http://moarpowah.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/The-special-infected.jpg


http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/images/11562-1-1267948347.jpg

in a game?
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langurmonkey: No.
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gameon: I have to say, this gameplay video is actually quite sickening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-95u9BJbOcc#t=34s
That shit makes me almost vomit.
Post edited October 29, 2012 by langurmonkey
Posted October 29, 2012
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Elmofongo: Hey Red Dead Redemption can let me hunt Cougars, Bears, Wolves, Foxes, Boar etc. so why not this game?
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langurmonkey: Why do you want to hunt these animals

http://www.zooborns.com/.a/6a010535647bf3970b011168fcbe45970c-800wi

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_g3bmheQBEM/Te5Lp6YWLTI/AAAAAAAAFFs/nMJpgtDIJpI/s1600/baby-elephant.jpg

http://static.environmentalgraffiti.com/sites/default/files/images/1_sleeping-on-mother.jpg

http://awesomeplaygrounds.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/bear-cub.jpeg

instead of hunting these creatures

http://moarpowah.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/The-special-infected.jpg


http://fallout3.nexusmods.com/mods/images/11562-1-1267948347.jpg

in a game?
...because its a game and I want to do stuff in a game and one of them is hunting a Lion.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Being indie an excuse for crappy graphics?(167 posts)(167 posts)
(167 posts)