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DodoGeo: Well where are those purchases?
This just shows how loud you are but how quiet your wallets are.
We pro-choicers are such hypocrites for buying DRM-free games when they are released or when we hear about them instead of waiting for Steam sales before buying elsewhere ;-)

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DodoGeo: If Steam gives something extra for the title being a Steam exclusive, it's like having that little bit extra if your game isn't a hot seller.
Does it give something for exclusivity? I certainly hope not - that would be quite toxic. Anyway, I was under the impression that Gabe isn't fond of exclusivity agreements.
Post edited March 07, 2012 by Barefoot_Monkey
OMG! Who would have thought?! Ha ha, now look at all these guys screaming at the top of their lungs about how most gamers really hate Steam and how obviously everyone cares about DRM-free games and that they would totally like to forbid Steam to sell indie games because they're hurting indie devs! Boy, were they wrong! Steam actually is a success, ha ha! And it actually benefits the indie developers who offer their games there, wow! Plus, the people who care about DRM are actually just a minority, ha ha! So small that we can pretend they don't even exist! And they sure are vocal, those few ignorant bastards here on the GOG forum but guess what they didn't actually buy 96.000 copies through BMT Micro, ha ha, what hypocrites!

/irony off ;)


Honestly, all these Anti-Steam-Basher-Bashing discussions (read that as you like) are getting quite ridiculous. I've read the occasional calm and sober post trying to actually discuss chances and risks, but most of the time it's just people furiously, gleefully and self-righteously talking past each other, on both sides. Can't we all just get along, have a break until the next episode of "Steam Wars" in a few months or so and instead talk about GOG and enjoy our games, regardless of where we bought them from? :/
Post edited March 07, 2012 by Leroux
Another point of view from which to look at sales (be they Steam or Humble Indie Bundle or whatever) is the one of the developer providing support for their game.

This was brought up really nicely by the lead developer of Puppy Games (guys who did Revenge of the Titans), and even though he's a bit pissed in that thread (and with good reason), the points he brings forth are valid and well thought of: Getting fed up with trolling, the issues facing support in the current climate
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SirPrimalform: Well duh, we have to be. Surely those numbers make that obvious?
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DodoGeo: Well where are those purchases?
This just shows how loud you are but how quiet your wallets are.
I got it in the HIB, on it's own it's not really a game I want. In fact, I'd argue it's fairly terrible as a data point being so niche.
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jamyskis: In other words, not one fucker bought the game outside of the publicity periods.
Thanks for debunking this, this means fuck all as a data point, then.
Post edited March 07, 2012 by orcishgamer
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jamyskis: In other words, not one fucker bought the game outside of the publicity periods.
I can kinda understand this. I haven't played the game. I haven't downloaded the game. I think I own it in one of my Humble Bundles... that's it. But the instant I see "tower defense," I basically lose interest. Not because I think that tower defense games are bad, but because there are SO MANY OF THEM. I probably wouldn't ever give this game a second glance, regardless of how polished it looked or how many people told me it was great, simply because there are (probably literally) thousands of other equally-good-looking tower defense games that I could get instead--or that I already own through other Humble Bundles.

And, I find tower defense to be somewhat boring anyway :P

But yes, you have a very good point, regardless.

EDIT: Perhaps I spoke too soon... now that I'm looking at the Steam page, it seems that there's a lot more going on here than just the usual tower defense formula. And plus, "You can absolutely blow up everything." I'm an absolute sucker for games that let me blow up everything.
Post edited March 07, 2012 by jefequeso
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jamyskis: In other words, not one fucker bought the game outside of the publicity periods.
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jefequeso: I can kinda understand this. I haven't played the game. I haven't downloaded the game. I think I own it in one of my Humble Bundles... that's it. But the instant I see "tower defense," I basically lose interest. Not because I think that tower defense games are bad, but because there are SO MANY OF THEM. I probably wouldn't ever give this game a second glance, regardless of how polished it looked or how many people told me it was great, simply because there are (probably literally) thousands of other equally-good-looking tower defense games that I could get instead--or that I already own through other Humble Bundles.

And, I find tower defense to be somewhat boring anyway :P

But yes, you have a very good point, regardless.

EDIT: Perhaps I spoke too soon... now that I'm looking at the Steam page, it seems that there's a lot more going on here than just the usual tower defense formula. And plus, "You can absolutely blow up everything." I'm an absolute sucker for games that let me blow up everything.
Eh. Brendan Chung is an ace guy, but I'm really hesitant to buy this after his airplane word game, which name escapes me right now. That was a total waste of money, and I'm not so sure I want to throw out another few dollars for another game from him. That game only lasted me 1 hour before I completely ripped through all of its content x_x
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jamyskis: Looking at the Steam achievements page for Atom Zombie Smasher, you can see that 27.4% of people have got the KringleJammer achievement, which was the one for the Gift Pile.

Seeing as that was a fucking hard achievement to get and seeing as there are much easier achievements with less than 10% in there, I think it's pretty clear at this point that the reason that the vast majority of those who bought the game on Steam bought it for the Gift Pile.

And just to add more wood, there's THIS graph showing the number of concurrent users of the game.

A little exercise for the uninitiated: note the three points. See how two of them collate with the Summer Camp achievement and the Gift Pile achievement, and the third matches the Humble Bundle 3.

In other words, not one fucker bought the game outside of the publicity periods.
I think what you're trying to do with this post is demonstrate that people don't actively prefer Steam. Whether or not that's true, that's not the point.

What all of this demonstrates is that Steam really is good for indies because they provide events and incentives for people to purchase and play your game. Gamersgate etc... have done nothing like this to promote indie sales. They might have some offers, that's it.

So Steam is beneficial to indie games. Not sure why there's such a need to discredit that fact.
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kodeen: What all of this demonstrates is that Steam really is good for indies because they provide events and incentives for people to purchase and play your game. Gamersgate etc... have done nothing like this to promote indie sales. They might have some offers, that's it.
No, all this shows is that Steam is good for indies get that massive promotion from Steam (e.g. Christmas and Summer achievements for prizes and deep discounts on the purchase). For the indies that Steam does this for, sure, it's probably great. Is that all of them? I somehow doubt it. Will it last longterm? Well, that's a crapshoot, who knows, people are suckers for those kinds of promotions, but even suckers can get jaded or find something more shiny to focus on.

HIB purchases had nothing to do with Steam promoting the game. HIB is a freight train in its own right.
Post edited March 07, 2012 by orcishgamer
If you actually do that graph to all time you'll see that it had nearly 700 concurrent users around 3/1 of this year, which was its recent daily deal. So while a lot of people are buying this stuff for contests, a good 700 people bought it recently when it was simply cheap and not tied into anything.

Though I'd honestly question how accurate the thing is. AZS was part of a steam weekend deal or midweek madness in may or June of last year in a bundle with games like ARES and Swords and Soldiers HD. That's when I got it, and when I played it. I'd imagine there'd be at least a small entry on that chart around those months. But there's nothing.
Post edited March 07, 2012 by Sinizine
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kodeen: I think what you're trying to do with this post is demonstrate that people don't actively prefer Steam. Whether or not that's true, that's not the point.

What all of this demonstrates is that Steam really is good for indies because they provide events and incentives for people to purchase and play your game. Gamersgate etc... have done nothing like this to promote indie sales. They might have some offers, that's it.

So Steam is beneficial to indie games. Not sure why there's such a need to discredit that fact.
Not really. My point is two-fold.

Firstly: The majority of people who prefer Steam do so for mainstream games. With a few notable exceptions, very few indie games actually have any users (and by deduction, therefore any buyers) outside of offer periods.

Secondly: It's a solid indication that Steam's dumping policy is a core reason for its success. However, such a policy is inevitably damaging to the industry in the long term because it fosters the idea that indie games should not be more than $2.49.

I think the fact that 1,800 people bought it directly DRM-free from the developer, even though it was $5 more expensive, is a very telling thing.

So while it certainly sold by the bucketload when it was sold at rock bottom prices, it's also deprived the developer of long-term revenue and that IP is worth zilch.

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jefequeso: I can kinda understand this. I haven't played the game. I haven't downloaded the game. I think I own it in one of my Humble Bundles... that's it. But the instant I see "tower defense," I basically lose interest. Not because I think that tower defense games are bad, but because there are SO MANY OF THEM. I probably wouldn't ever give this game a second glance, regardless of how polished it looked or how many people told me it was great, simply because there are (probably literally) thousands of other equally-good-looking tower defense games that I could get instead--or that I already own through other Humble Bundles.

And, I find tower defense to be somewhat boring anyway :P

But yes, you have a very good point, regardless.

EDIT: Perhaps I spoke too soon... now that I'm looking at the Steam page, it seems that there's a lot more going on here than just the usual tower defense formula. And plus, "You can absolutely blow up everything." I'm an absolute sucker for games that let me blow up everything.
Yah, AZS is a fucking awesome game, and to be honest I play it quite often, but it's the DRM free version from the HIB, so I'm not part of the blip after the HIB :-)

As for genre and originality, I looked at the graph for Nuclear Dawn, and that came up with similar blips. I'm not going to bother reinstalling it to see if there is anyone online now, but the only activity seems to be around the release, the Gift Pile achievement and its Indie Royale release. Dino D-Day, Recettear and has the same blips.

Compare that with The Binding of Isaac, which has been actively publicised all over the web, and has a much more stable graph (obviously there were peaks around the HIB and Christmas), but it's been more stable on the whole.

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Sinizine: Though I'd honestly question how accurate the thing is. AZS was part of a steam weekend deal or midweek madness in may or June of last year in a bundle with games like ARES and Swords and Soldiers HD. That's when I got it, and when I played it. I'd imagine there'd be at least a small entry on that chart around those months. But there's nothing.
There is a valid point in this. The graphs actually show average data for a period represented by a pixel. Because each pixel represents around a day, individual users won't flag up unless they were actually playing the game for 24 hours straight. I bought that bundle too, but if I'm honest, the only games I really played were ARES and AZS.

Basically, assuming that the average playtime of a person is one hour, nothing will show up on that graph unless around 30-40 people were playing concurrently (a rough guess). I guess you and me were in a minority or people bought it without even playing it. Bundles like that usually otherwise do well.


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AndrewC: Another point of view from which to look at sales (be they Steam or Humble Indie Bundle or whatever) is the one of the developer providing support for their game.

This was brought up really nicely by the lead developer of Puppy Games (guys who did Revenge of the Titans), and even though he's a bit pissed in that thread (and with good reason), the points he brings forth are valid and well thought of: Getting fed up with trolling, the issues facing support in the current climate
That doesn't surprise me, and reading Cas' other stuff on the forum, I find his frankness incredible and his natural instinct to NOT kiss the arse of the community praiseworthy. I think his reaction is a typical sign of how many self-entitled arseholes there are in the Steam community.

Actually, Puppy Games got my support when they released Revenge of the Titans DRM free in retail with an included Steam key. Even though I had it off the HIB already, I really enjoyed the game, and wanted to support the idea, so I bought it for €15 and it is still shrink-wrapped on my shelf.
Post edited March 08, 2012 by jamyskis
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jamyskis: So while it certainly sold by the bucketload when it was sold at rock bottom prices, it's also deprived the developer of long-term revenue and that IP is worth zilch.
False logic - you are implying that the people who bought it cheap in steam sales or in bundles would have sooner or later bought it more expensive from the developers. We do not know this, it might just have been that the 1800 are the only ones who wanted the game enough, and therefore all other sales are a bonus to the maximum profit it would have achieved.

To be honest, it do not matter if it was sale, promotion, bundle or not. If you take away all ideology, a sale is a sale, no matter where it comes from.

eidt: By the way, the IP is worth more with exposure then niche market
Post edited March 08, 2012 by amok
Would the dev have made more money without Steam?

No.

Would more people have at least tried the game without Steam?

No.

Would more people at least, heard about that game without Steam?

No.


I find it somewhat interesting how people still complain about Steam with those number. How they go out of their way to find somehting to critize Haters gonna hate I guess.

The real tragedy is that there are many points that can rightfully be critizied about Steam. But they will never be taken seriously because a normal discussion can't take place in such a hostile envoriment. Many Gamers really have to lose their entitlement and look at the needs of small time devs. You know, distributing a game on your own isn't all cakes and butterflies.

Honestly, I had more productice discussions about pork recepies with my rabbi then this.

Anyway, I'm happy for the devs and I for one certainly will call no dev a traitor for going to Steam.
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jamyskis: I think the fact that 1,800 people bought it directly DRM-free from the developer, even though it was $5 more expensive, is a very telling thing.
what does it tell you? I don't see anything particularly telling about that number, or at least not in a way that makes steam look bad. 2% of the purchases were made for full price at the developer's site. OK....I don't get it. All I'm getting from that is not a lot of the people wanted to pay $15 for it
Post edited March 08, 2012 by CaptainGyro
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SimonG: Would the dev have made more money without Steam?

No.

Would more people have at least tried the game without Steam?

No.

Would more people at least, heard about that game without Steam?

No.


I find it somewhat interesting how people still complain about Steam with those number. How they go out of their way to find somehting to critize Haters gonna hate I guess.
In the future...

Would the dev can make more money without SteamBox?

No.

Would people can play new game without SteamBox?

No.

Would people hear about new game without SteamBox?

No
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SimonG: You can dislike Steam, but you can't ignore the positive effect it has on the indy scene.
Tell that to the countless indie devs who can't get their game on Steam simply because Valve never reply to them. In other words, Valve are a little too powerful here, they can basically make or break a developer simply by choosing whether to ignore an email or not.