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General discussion (archive)Are you kidding?? My first encounter with DRM!(207 posts)(207 posts)
(207 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 11, 2014
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Pheace: Although there's no proof that the statement is a true one, why do people always seem to think every game needs to get changed for what they said to work? Couldn't they just change the client to not require callbacks to Valve servers anymore? If they made that statement I'm pretty sure they're thinking along those lines, rather than changing all the games.
Aye, If I understand correctly how CEG works, it calls the server and checks if the game is on your inventory, then it generates a new key which it then validates again with your computer and the server. I guess it is possible to intercept the signal to the server somehow, and just let it give back a 'fake' positive for each call. Since the CEG key generation is handled locally, the server call is just for verification.
Posted May 11, 2014
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CarrionCrow: The whole system-wide Steam unlock is a very bad fantasy.
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timppu: Also on the technical level. There most probably isn't any single kill-switch which Valve just has to flip in order to make thousands of Steam games Steam-free on a short notice. No, it would most probably mean each and every Steam game would have to be modified individually. And it would probably have to be the developer of each game who'd have to do that, not Valve. Good luck trying to do that also for all those old games which are discontinued on Steam (ie. not sold anymore, but people who bought them earlier still have them in their Steam library).

If only people used some common sense, they'd understand the myth about "Valve promised to unlock all Steam games in case the Steam servers ever go down" doesn't make any sense at all, at any level.
They could potentially release a version of the client that just authorized every game that attempted to start without doing an actual Steam server check. You would of course need to have the game installed in the first place. That does of course depend on how they do the account check, but an infinite Offline Mode would be a potential solution.
Posted May 11, 2014
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hscott2hughes: Here is the page that I purchased it from: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CI784K6/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Smannesman: So you bought an imported game from a page with literally no info about the requirements and that is doing your due diligence?
On the UK page there are multiple people mentioning how it uses Steam (and is a terrible game). The US download version clearly states the DRM is Steam.
The version also requires Steam. The [url=http://support.bandainamcogames.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/383/0/star-trek-the-video-game---instruction-manual-pc]manual on Namco's site also mentions Steam, it is also a crappy manual.
Apparently in the US it's only available in digital form, that should also have been a clue.
You took a risk by buying a game without doing research and it didn't work out, that's just how it works with PCs these days. Certain games don't work with certain video cards, certain games can only be activated twice, certain games need you to be online all the time, and so on and so on.
Actually the game (so far) appears to work just fine. And I've imported several games from the UK(not from that seller but others) simply because there was no disk version available in the US. But, yes, I was taken by the Steam thing a bit surprised, because, no, I don't generally buy multiplayer shooters. The adventure games I had bought (i.e. Captain Morgane) had no such requirements. So I really learned something with one, lol!

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tinyE: OT and not to kick a man when he's down, but I technically work 24 hours a day in the real world, I do live and breath video games, and I definitely live under a rock. :D
LOL! High five!
Post edited May 11, 2014 by hscott2hughes
Posted May 11, 2014
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Smannesman: So you bought an imported game from a page with literally no info about the requirements and that is doing your due diligence?
On the UK page there are multiple people mentioning how it uses Steam (and is a terrible game). The US download version clearly states the DRM is Steam.
The version also requires Steam. The [url=http://support.bandainamcogames.com/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/383/0/star-trek-the-video-game---instruction-manual-pc]manual on Namco's site also mentions Steam, it is also a crappy manual.
Apparently in the US it's only available in digital form, that should also have been a clue.
You took a risk by buying a game without doing research and it didn't work out, that's just how it works with PCs these days. Certain games don't work with certain video cards, certain games can only be activated twice, certain games need you to be online all the time, and so on and so on.
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hscott2hughes: Actually the game (so far) appears to work just fine. And I've imported several games from the UK(not from that seller but others) simply because there was no disk version available in the US. But, yes, I was taken by the Steam thing a bit surprised, because, no, I don't generally buy multiplayer shooters. The adventure games I had bought (i.e. Captain Morgane) had no such requirements. So I really learned something with one, lol!

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tinyE: OT and not to kick a man when he's down, but I technically work 24 hours a day in the real world, I do live and breath video games, and I definitely live under a rock. :D
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hscott2hughes: LOL! High five!
Actually that was kind of a slight at you but thanks anyway. :P My point was that being tied up, busy, and or cut off is no excuse not to know what you are getting when you go into a purchase.
Posted May 11, 2014
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WingedKagouti: They could potentially release a version of the client that just authorized every game that attempted to start without doing an actual Steam server check. You would of course need to have the game installed in the first place. That does of course depend on how they do the account check, but an infinite Offline Mode would be a potential solution.
They could, but if Steam goes down (i.e. are going out of business) how likely do you really think it is that they're going to worry about unlocking games tied to the client when they're looking at some form of bankruptcy and have to satisfy creditors? I personally think there's just about zero chance of that, and I also think this mythical statement about unlocking all their games is nothing more than urban legend.
Posted May 11, 2014
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Akhiris: Steam is probably the most unobtrusive DRM you will encounter. Valve always said that if they were going to shut down the servers that they would unlock the games and you would have them forever.

hscott2hughes, you can just put Steam into offline mode. Download your game, then start Steam in offline mode. Voila, no more authentication.
Actually, Steam can be the most draconian DRM system out there. It all depends on what parts of Steam's feature sets are used. At its worst, Steam can dictate where and when you are allowed to play your game. It can even be used to decide that you're not allowed access to your legally purchased 3rd part retail copy.

Secondly, this notion that Valve said they'd shut down the activation servers in the event they went out of business is also a myth. A myth that stemmed from someone posting what appeared to be a reply from Gabe in respect to what would happen in such a situation speaking hypothetically. There was never any proof that the response was actually from anyone at Valve. Moreover, the SSA specifically states the opposite to this claim. That being that Valve have no legal obligation to do any such thing. Even if they did, this wouldn't include any additional DRM layers included.

As for putting Steam into offline mode, that is apparently only valid for 2 weeks. Steam will generally require to authenticate after that time (this may depend on game specific settings).
Posted May 11, 2014
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bansama: As for putting Steam into offline mode, that is apparently only valid for 2 weeks. Steam will generally require to authenticate after that time (this may depend on game specific settings).
This is not true and was even disproven with a local test by one of the people here on GOG a couple of months back. As stated by Valve, it's supposed to work indefinitely. That said, it's anything but a flawless mode and has certainly had it's issues in the past.
Post edited May 11, 2014 by Pheace
Posted May 11, 2014
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bansama: As for putting Steam into offline mode, that is apparently only valid for 2 weeks. Steam will generally require to authenticate after that time (this may depend on game specific settings).
Is this also not due to the when the game was added to Steam? There was something with older games which then needed that call-back, but it was because the software back then was not meant to be used on so many games. As Steam grew faster than anyone expected, even Valve, a bug in the key generation thingy created this effect. Newer games should not have this problem and Valve is having a slow changeover of the CEG part of older games also. The intentions are that offline mode should work 'indefinitely'.

My work laptop have not been connected to Steam for over 7 months now, and the games there still work perfectly.
Posted May 11, 2014
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Pheace: This is not true and was even disproven with a local test by one of the people here on GOG a couple of months back. As stated by Valve, it's supposed to work indefinitely. That said, it's anything but a flawless mode and has certainly had it's issues in the past.
Well, i dont know what the cause is, but i used offline mode constantly, and over the last couple years i was prompted to log back in online (or it would refuse to run in offline mode) every few weeks or so.
Posted May 11, 2014
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bansama: My work laptop have not been connected to Steam for over 7 months now, and the games there still work perfectly.
But did you install the games when you were offline?
Posted May 11, 2014
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bansama: My work laptop have not been connected to Steam for over 7 months now, and the games there still work perfectly.
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MetallicTrench: But did you install the games when you were offline?
? not sure how that relate. The games still work.

I was also online when I downloaded the games, if that helps? I tend to download and install the games I want to play, and then delete them as I have finished. The games are then stores in the cloud, be it Steam, gOg or Humble. That is the point of having a digital library for me.
Posted May 11, 2014
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hscott2hughes: Actually the game (so far) appears to work just fine. And I've imported several games from the UK(not from that seller but others) simply because there was no disk version available in the US. But, yes, I was taken by the Steam thing a bit surprised, because, no, I don't generally buy multiplayer shooters. The adventure games I had bought (i.e. Captain Morgane) had no such requirements. So I really learned something with one, lol!

LOL! High five!
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tinyE: Actually that was kind of a slight at you but thanks anyway. :P My point was that being tied up, busy, and or cut off is no excuse not to know what you are getting when you go into a purchase.
I'm really growing to dislike the attitude that its somehow the buyer's fault when they get suckered, or that it's somehow everyone's job to know all about how the gaming industry works and that they should instinctively know what the dangers and pitfalls are. With due respect you may spend all day working in the real world, but you also spend all day, every day posting right here - talking games, with gamers. You are saturated in this culture. In fact you probably spend more time here than anyone else in the entire world, and that is not everyone else's perspective.

It is perfectly valid for someone to be so engrossed in other areas of life that they have no real idea how gaming works or what the pitfalls are. Axl Rose didn't even know what console he owned when he tried to buy Guitar Hero 3, and got the wrong one. People are ignorant. I know all about gaming, some computer stuff, and cats. I don't know anything about kids, cars, or how to sail. People will always be ignorant of things, and that's a big reason why companies get away with a lot of what they do. People in mass just don't know what is going on, and they never will. You have to get run over the rocks at least once to become aware what it's like. Lets let people go though that learning process before we jump to "you should have xyz."
Posted May 11, 2014
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gooberking: I don't know anything about kids, cars, or how to sail.
If you have been sailing for 25 years, you probably would have picked up a few of the basics....
Posted May 11, 2014
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Smannesman: So long story short, you didn't do your due diligence and now Steam is evil.
Welcome to the wonderful world of PC gaming.
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hscott2hughes: Steam is not evil (they are just a game vendor) and I've been PC gaming for over twenty five years, thank you very much. You didn't do your due diligence in reading and comprehending what I wrote. I have no issue with Steam. The issue is that I DO read everything very carefully (I'm quite literate) before making any purchase, but the relevant information (namely that the game is not even *stored* on the disc that I purchased) was not provided in any form of print, fine or otherwise. Here is the page that I purchased it from: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CI784K6/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If you can find the fine print that I missed, then I'll happily stand corrected.
The fact of the matter is that no sort of 'due diligence' should be expected to be conducted by any customer when purchasing a game aside from checking OS and PC specs. Somehow we have gone from the aforementioned scenario to the ridiculous situation where purchasing a game requires people to use a 'buyer beware' kind of mindset. What is even more ridiculous is that some people somehow think that you are to blame when your reasonable assumptions about what to expect from a purchase are not realised. To be clear, due diligence is a term used to make sure individuals and companies know what they are buying into when acquiring another company, and not something that implies that anyone does extensive research before buying a game in case the developer or publisher is hiding something. The problem is not with the customer but with game companies who view gamers as marks rather than customers. Thankfully GOG, though not perfect, is not so open to such spurious practitioners.
Posted May 11, 2014
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tinyE: Actually that was kind of a slight at you but thanks anyway. :P My point was that being tied up, busy, and or cut off is no excuse not to know what you are getting when you go into a purchase.
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gooberking: I'm really growing to dislike the attitude that its somehow the buyer's fault when they get suckered, or that it's somehow everyone's job to know all about how the gaming industry works and that they should instinctively know what the dangers and pitfalls are. With due respect you may spend all day working in the real world, but you also spend all day, every day posting right here - talking games, with gamers. You are saturated in this culture. In fact you probably spend more time here than anyone else in the entire world, and that is not everyone else's perspective.

It is perfectly valid for someone to be so engrossed in other areas of life that they have no real idea how gaming works or what the pitfalls are. Axl Rose didn't even know what console he owned when he tried to buy Guitar Hero 3, and got the wrong one. People are ignorant. I know all about gaming, some computer stuff, and cats. I don't know anything about kids, cars, or how to sail. People will always be ignorant of things, and that's a big reason why companies get away with a lot of what they do. People in mass just don't know what is going on, and they never will. You have to get run over the rocks at least once to become aware what it's like. Lets let people go though that learning process before we jump to "you should have xyz."
You missed my point, not knowing isn't the problem if you haven't been presented with the proper information, and that happens all the time; it's when you have been presented with the information and made at least some kind of effort to make sure the information was in fact presented to you. I didn't know anything about Steam just a few weeks ago and I was very strongly considering joining them but before hand I did all the reading I could about it and pestered people in here about it thus leaving no excuses should I join up and feel I got lied too or ripped off.

As an inn keeper it get's frustrating as hell when people don't read our web page and then blame me when they show up and see we have dogs, or don't allow smoking, or don't have any king size beds. Spend a few few weeks dealing with people (and I'm talking seriously pissed off people) who refuse to read any kind of fine print (or in the case of my web page, big bold print) and then blame you for it. Even then the consumer can take it way too far and exploit not having something spelled out for them to the point of lunacy. I actually got told off once, and god strike me down if I am lying, for not telling someone our log cabin was made of wood! Crap like this is why McDonalds now has to print "Contents Hot" on it's coffee cups for fear of a lawsuit. How far do you want this to go?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Are you kidding?? My first encounter with DRM!(207 posts)(207 posts)
(207 posts)