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General discussion (archive)Are modern gamers easily manipulated?(83 posts)(83 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 18, 2010
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Catshade: There are lots of crap games in the 80s and 90s; Y'all just forget it and only remember the good ones.

This pretty much nails it.
These threads always fill up with people remembering the good games from yesteryear, but conveniently forgetting the thousands of game that were no better than the warmed over rehashed releases of today.
The games industry has ALWAYS produced more crap than good...just like music...just like movies. We just don't tend to remember the absolutely shitty games that were a waste of time, we only remember the gems.
And sorry, folks...but this fable about blaming the state of the games industry on 'those damned kids' is just that...A FABLE. Of all the studies I've seen about who the average gamer is in recent years, the YOUNGEST average age I saw reached was 29.
Frankly, a lot of this comes down to people wanting desperately to believe that their generation had 'the best', and the current one is wrecking it.
And before someone comes up with the "You're probably just some bitter kid!" response, I'm 33 years old. :)
Posted April 18, 2010
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Wishbone: For us (well, I can only speak for myself, but I don't think I'm alone) who were the core market for games back then, it feels like we've been forgotten, abandoned. It's like the game companies are unaware that their market is twice as large as they think. A whole older generation wants to buy their products, but they don't want to cater to our needs/wants.

Yes i agree and those game designers that use to make games for us feel the same way.
Posted April 18, 2010
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Kalas: Next you'll be telling me that people hate M.A.S.H.!

M.A.S.H was awesome, but Seinfeld was utter crap. Loathed it back then, and still to this day. It just isn't funny, or even amusing.
I don't think it's a generational thing, only partly. When you're younger, you're less likely to make sound decisions, as you get older - you hopefully learn how to do so.
It's the mass market mentality, even just going back to the 90's, computer games were still a niche product (although popularity was definitely increasing). Gaming now has a further reach, those that considered themselves gamers 'back in the day' and who have had children tend to pass on that influence. Which further bolsters an entertainment product that would naturally grow on it's own.
Having said that, consumers are consumers. For every consumer that takes the time to scrutinise a product, there are many more who will make the purchase without background knowledge.
We're all guilty of this at one point or another, it's just a matter of whether we keep making purchases based purely on hype, or don't.
Posted April 18, 2010
I'm 35 and I must say there are probably more issues today then in earlier days, but also far more options for everyone to be happy. There are plenty of indies out there and a fair ratio of them will probably share some thoughts mentioned in this thread. And there still are a handful of good publishers around.
I for my part love the classics and I'm annoyed about stuff that some CEOs try to push onto us. But nevertheless, besides all the problems I still can enjoy games as MW2, BFBC2 etc. and what they have to offer. I just don't pay €60 when it's released and I don't buy overpriced DLC & map packs, but what hinders me to admit that some levels of MW2 are so atmospheric as no shooter in the 90s could halfways achieve?
Oh and I liked Seinfeld more in the days when it was new, somehow it lost a lot more than other cult shows. I wonder how I will rate Friends or Frasier in some years. ;)
Post edited April 18, 2010 by Silrog
Posted April 19, 2010
screwed up the quote again thanks to editing but in response to dreadcog who wrote:
"the games today only have dazzling grahics and surround sound to back them up.Underneath the flashy stuff it's what my friends and I called the 5 challenges, object avoidance, shooting gallery, race to the end,side scrolling, and maze clearing"
well I pretty much totally disagree with your first sentence. I dunno, do you even play modern games much? I mean you ask your friend "how can you play those games", so I assume you don't play them because you think they are garbage. But if you don't play them, how can you tell if they are garbage? Someone else said something about getting past the "new=bad" mentality, and honeslty that's what i think your problem is.
and I'm confused by your second sentence.After saying new games only have "dazzling graphics and surround sound to back them up" you then say what lies underneath modern games is the same type of fun gameplay that has been around in videogames forever, even the old ones you cherish so much.What's the lacking magical secret ingredient that made older games such a basket of gaming miracles?
I'm also changing my "I think the 90's kicked more ass than today" statement to "I think everything up to 2005 kicked more ass than today".
My main beef is the common complaint of gritty shooters taking up a huge % of the gaming releases. BUt still there's plenty of other stuff to play, and I actually consider shooters to be pretty fun once inawhile.
Post edited April 19, 2010 by CaptainGyro
Posted April 19, 2010
Ok mmaby im to real life but i think is fun to play rpg where you have to eat and drink, sleep ,
think and talk.
There alot more but this main ones i dont list it all.
And miss Adventure games that why love this site got syberia 1 and 2 and it was fun.
Maby we old gezers expect to much :p
Posted April 19, 2010
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lukaszthegreat: First of all: let's take off nostalgic glasses okay?
they are a scientific fact (although called something more formal)
It means that first: you don't remember bad stuff but you do remember good stuff. Furthermore you do remember it as better than it was.
The past was not as great as you think and those games even if you play them today are not as great as you believe.
you can pick fallout, bg, deus ex, HL and few others. but there are thousands of crappy games unplayable today and then. Remember ET?
Second
You grow up. Of course everyone younger than you is more stupid. You were the same, really no different than them (unless you are a genius but i doubt any of us are here. maybe a one or two gogers)
so saying stuff that everyone after you is stupider is just silly.
Games are bigger nowadays. You have more info about them. You hear about good and bad.
When i was a kid (born in 85) my only connection with gaming were friends and a monthly magazine. Lost in the limbo, big truck driver (you know the worst game ever): I wouldn't know about it. But thx to internet i do.
More info, more games = does equals more crap being recorded by your brain.
Bioshock one had a great story: the gameplay wasn't maybe up to par with Deus ex but DE is pinnacle of fps/rpg gaming (or it is SS2. depends on your taste) It is hard to surpass as the power does not come from technology but the imagination of creators and that does not change overtime.
MW2 is a mcdonalds of gaming. fast, cheap (well, cheap entertainment. not buying). Doesn't mean the food overall got worse because cheap mcdonald is everywhere. Horrible food was always present. just now got a form.
Nevertheless, a great cousine is still out there.
We got sins of solar empire, got DA:O, got tens of great indie games you just need to look for.
In the past you could find a great game by looking at ten games. Now there are thousands of games so indeed finding a good game is a bit harder. Doesn't mean that they are not there.
Oh: last word:
Ancient Egyptians complained about their children. so did your parents, so did their parents and so on. Children always disappoint they never seem capable of carrying the torch.
but they do they did and they will do. the emo kids, the punk slacker kids and those wasteful kids you think are a menace to society. you weren't different, your parents weren't and neither were parents from hundreds of generations ago.

I'm so glad someone else always manages to make the sensible post before I get to it. Saves me a lot of time. Thanks! :)
Posted April 19, 2010
It's also a self-selecting prophecy. The older games that we plays nowadays have survived because they were uniquely brilliant. We simply don't play the rubbish anymore - I had much more rubbish on my old Amiga 500 than I had ace games. For every SensiSoccer, how many Footballer of the Year 2s where there?
This is a list I found of sales between 1993-1999 on PC Gamer. Some crackerjacks, of course, considering these are basically the best selling PC games of the decade. But look at some of the terrible inclusions as well:
1) Myst (Mattel Interactive) 4,236,198
2) MS Flight Simulator (Microsoft) 2,781,288
3) Doom II (GT Interactive) 1,553,587
4) Riven: The Sequel to Myst (Mattel Interactive) 1,305,595
5) Monopoly Game (Hasbro Interactive) 1,273,553
6) Warcraft II (Havas Interactive) 1,250,675
7) Diablo (Havas Interactive) 1,176,457
8) Doom Shareware (Id Software) 1,154,541
9) Sim City 2000 (Electronic Arts) 1,136,244
10) Star Wars: Dark Forces (LucasArts) 952,033
11) Duke Nukem 3D (GT Interactive) 946,664
12) Deer Hunter [Ed Note: By Wizardworks on CD-ROM] (GT Interactive) 944,703
13) 7th Guest (Interplay) 926,948
14) Starcraft (Havas Interactive) 906,128
15) MS Return of Arcade (Microsoft) 902,313
16) Lego Island (Mattel Interactive) 897,005
17) Command & Conquer: Red Alert (Electronic Arts) 869,623
18) Sim City Classic (Electronic Arts) 827,355
19) Barbie Fashion Designer (Mattel Interactive) 825,655
20) Ultimate Doom Thy Flesh (GT Interactive) 787,397
Lego Island anyone? Or Barbie Fashion Designer?
Post edited April 19, 2010 by dougaiton
Posted April 19, 2010
I'd like to add my point of view.
I don't think, that playing and enjoying new games is "bad". I am not ashamed, that I would like to try and play CoD: MW2, Call of Chuarez 2, Just Cause 2. It's pure entertainment and it's very usefull, when you want play something, but thinking hurts. (Maybe you know what i mean.) Or I have ony 30 min of spare time so i start something quick and choose Civilization later - after work is done.
And about gaming gems. Yeah, they still exist and will exist, but there aren't the gems we loved.
They moved to the mainstream zone. There is hardly a game, which you would love for its hard to master, but generously rewarding hardcore system
I take Albion for example. It's one of a greatest Dungeon/RPG games I ever played. I was pretty suprised, that it isn't in top 10 wishlist. And it has only about 300 votes. That was a real shock for me. So, this 15 years old game (now owned by Ubi) has great setting. It's kinda fantasy/sci-fi, there aren't trolls, orcs, dragons and other fantasy crap.
When I first saw trailer Avatar trailer, i thought - someone is making Albion movie! Cat-like humanoids, exotic world... and mining spaceship.
3D view in some dungeons/cities, isometric view in another villiges/dungeons, and isometric-chess view in combat. Beautiful (as 15 years old game can be).
And I know, that something like that, with same or better system, with nice graphics, but with turnbased combat, will stay only in my dreams.
So yeah, there are still gaming gems these days, but they aren't the old ones. :-(
Edit: Sorry about my lax grammar, but i am in mode - thinking = pain. And to be true, i never was good at it.
Post edited April 19, 2010 by Bodkin
Posted April 19, 2010
I agree with Coelocanth (whose posterior is of similar vintage to my own) and others who lay much of the blame on current marketing that emphasizes hype before a product becomes available. It seemed to begin with movies, but it has moved to games, iPads, and many other areas. While buyers have long anticipated the release of something, the means to manipulate and even manufacture those expectations have increased. The 24-hour news cycle contributes to the problem because they have to find things to report, and hype fill the holes when there are few disasters.
I remember seeing Star Wars in the theater. It had been out for several months. Now, it would play for maybe six weeks in all but the largest markets. The hype burns through a movie very quickly these days. It's the same with most other media and entertainment.
Our data-saturated culture doesn't help either. People don't exercise their brains while they take in a constant stream of data, even paying for the privilege. People are mentally-overfed, over-stimulated, distracted, and understandably anxious.
On the other hand, all this data makes us aware of things we may not have been aware of before, such as the current DRM shenanigans. It's not like a company has never released a cynically broken game, nor indeed is it the first time the industry has been in trouble through its own fault.
Age has something to do with it, it's not a specific indictment of current youth. Companies have always tried to sell things to those will more money than experience. And experience only helps if one learns from it.
In the end, we'll survive. One thing I think video game companies need to remember is that I can find other uses for my time. They are not indispensable.
Post edited April 19, 2010 by Syme
Posted April 19, 2010
You forgot System Shock 2 and Half Life...
Posted April 19, 2010
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CaptainGyro: well I pretty much totally disagree with your first sentence. I dunno, do you even play modern games much? I mean you ask your friend "how can you play those games", so I assume you don't play them because you think they are garbage. But if you don't play them, how can you tell if they are garbage? Someone else said something about getting past the "new=bad" mentality, and honeslty that's what i think your problem is.

Yes, I do and have. I've gotten tired of them. Everytime my friend gets a new console game he invites me over to play it. From what I've seen it still hasn't changed and newer PC games are just ports of the console games. Like the Wii it has some stupid gimmick to get you to buy it. (The three dark lords have invaded the kingdom of the underworld, with the aid of Vespels Sword can you save it in time?) There's no originality. How many times can you play through the same formula driven script?
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CaptainGyro: and I'm confused by your second sentence.After saying new games only have "dazzling graphics and surround sound to back them up" you then say what lies underneath modern games is the same type of fun gameplay that has been around in videogames forever, even the old ones you cherish so much.What's the lacking magical secret ingredient that made older games such a basket of gaming miracles?

Formula my friend, it's all about formula. You need to play some old games. I mean OLD games. Like Atari and Coleco Vision to know what I'm talking about. You will see first hand when ideas are flowing and creativity stops. Everyone hops onto the money train and starts regurgitating. Originality get tossed to the curb like a used condom. Atari 2600 is a perfect microcosm of what I'm talking about. There are 15 or 20 good Atari 2600 games. Out of the countless hundreds made most are clones or some idiotic attempt at making a game.
The miracle as you call it isn't one at all. It's about faith. Now the PC crowd tends to stand behind the distributor of their favorite games and console gamers tend to crowd around their favorite system. I'll go with PC games for this example. Imagine having absolute faith in a software company. Not the distributor but the actual architectural engine that developed the game and know that they are going to make great games. Think about how we felt getting that shiny new Sierra game home. Even though it was using the same engine as previous games and was essentially a clone of their own making. The story and game were designed so well that it draws you in to suspend your disbelief. It took you out of your world to new places and unexplored universes.
It's about the idea. The idea that you can go there and do that. The idea of, I wonder if that will work? The idea of, how will I get out of this? The idea of, is this situation really that impossible? If you can find that spark that makes you think about those things you've found a good game.
Have you ever wondered why so many people back Blizzard Entertainment? It isn't for free snow cones.
Posted April 19, 2010
Now, I don't know anything about creating games. But it's quite simple to understand how much time it must take to create those fancy 3d games. Ever checked the credits for those games? It goes on and on. I tell you. It's crazy.
Not to speak about the money, that money must return to their pockets.
I remember playing GTA 1 when I was a kid, I thought it was fun.
It was awfully simple, but it was very fun.
I mean you run around this little dot, you know. And beat people up. And steal cars.
Compare this small little game to GTA 4.
It's like black & white.
Now I wouldn't put up GTA 1 in any top list or as an example of a great game.
But for me that's what gaming was about. Creativity, fun, exploring.
There's none of that now.
And it's strange. Why not create a game in 2D. It would much easier to create.
Easier to handle I imagine.
Don't need millions of dollars to create a fun, creative game.
Posted April 19, 2010
God, what a bunch of grumpy old men.
A lot of you a talking as if hype in video games only appeared in the last few years. Do any of you actually remember Rise of the Robots or has old age really got to you that much. All those idiots back in the 90s choosing FIFA over ISS just because it had the real players names. We had lots of sub par movie tie-in platformers now we have lots of sub par 'open worlds'. There are some truly outstanding games being made and as always you have to wade through some crap to find the gems. Theses things have not changed that much, the only things that have are the budgets.
Let the kids enjoy themselves if they want to.
Post edited April 19, 2010 by rewsan
Posted April 19, 2010
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skarai: And it's strange. Why not create a game in 2D. It would much easier to create.
Easier to handle I imagine.
Don't need millions of dollars to create a fun, creative game.

I miss well drawn bitmap graphics. Sadly, only casual games use them now. Pretty much everything else is in full 3D, regardless of the genre.
(I have a feeling a ton of people are going to jump out of the woodwork now to point out examples of modern big name games in 2D that I've forgotten about)
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General discussion (archive)Are modern gamers easily manipulated?(83 posts)(83 posts)
(83 posts)