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General discussion (archive)Are fan games legal?(80 posts)(80 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 07, 2011
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lukaszthegreat: Is it specifically allowed for you and me to breath? if not then it is illegal?
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cjrgreen: Irrelevant. We're talking about derivative use of copyrighted work.

As for parodies, because you have to prove it is a parody if challenged on it, yes, either you or your label will have a lawyer who regularly works to get copyright holders off your back. Not on every single release, but probably several times a year. You can bet his label has an intellectual property department that has a lot to say about what gets released, too.
therefore it is a grey area. it is not absolutely illegal to use someone's else ip without their permission.

even if you make a profit from it which in case of fangames it is not the case.
Posted July 07, 2011
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cjrgreen: Irrelevant. We're talking about derivative use of copyrighted work.

As for parodies, because you have to prove it is a parody if challenged on it, yes, either you or your label will have a lawyer who regularly works to get copyright holders off your back. Not on every single release, but probably several times a year. You can bet his label has an intellectual property department that has a lot to say about what gets released, too.
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lukaszthegreat: therefore it is a grey area. it is not absolutely illegal to use someone's else ip without their permission.

even if you make a profit from it which in case of fangames it is not the case.
It's not absolutely illegal, but it is not absolutely legal, either. It is not so much a grey area as an area where all the facts and circumstances, not just a line in the sand, determine its legality. It's legal when you have permission or meet (in fact, not by mere assertion) an exception such as parody. Otherwise, it's illegal, whether the copyright holder takes action or not. I don't call that a grey area, though I understand why you do.

For example, parodist "Weird Al" Yankovic always obtains permission of the copyright holder before releasing a parody. Thus he doesn't have to worry about copyright lawsuits. (If he didn't do so, he'd probably spend more time in court than in the studio.)
Post edited July 07, 2011 by cjrgreen
Posted July 07, 2011
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cjrgreen: For example, parodist "Weird Al" Yankovic always obtains permission of the copyright holder before releasing a parody.
No. He does not. He tries to obtain permission of whoever made the song. it is not the same thing.

and i never said it was absolutely legal did I?

Fanworks fall under fair use. It is legal to draw a picture of a character from sonic. Selling it? Probably not.

Law is not black and white. In this case you cannot definitely say a simple free fangame is illegal because it used IPs without permission.
Posted July 07, 2011
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FraterPerdurabo: That is absolutely incorrect.
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Ubivis: No, it isn't... from the legal point, you are not allowed to use the IP of someone else without his permission. And to use original content for your own work is piracy, if you have no agreement with the owner of that work, that you can use it.

If you are so sure, that I am incorrect, proof it!
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cjrgreen: It's incorrect only when you can prove "fair use". Creating a new game from somebody else's IP is almost certainly not fair use. Just ask the bozos who put out "Limbo of the Lost", if you can find them.
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predcon: When in fine print it's said "Do not use without permission", then it's illegal.
I'm not going to start wasting time replying to such bland statements, not without getting paid, but rest assured that I've just spent two years studying IP law at undergraduate and masters level.
Posted July 07, 2011
I will refer you to this [url=]http://www.moddb.com/mods/killing-floor[/url]
This is the Unreal Tournament 2004 Total Conversion mod Killing Floor. I would say that some overhauls of pre released games are legal somewhat, and there are some that do an even better job of the originals.

P.s, I know my link wont sodding work, as I have no clue how to do it, so could someone please fix it for me. *Feels totally useless when it comes to links :(*
Posted July 07, 2011
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Denezan: I will refer you to this [url=]http://www.moddb.com/mods/killing-floor[/url]
This is the Unreal Tournament 2004 Total Conversion mod Killing Floor. I would say that some overhauls of pre released games are legal somewhat, and there are some that do an even better job of the originals.

P.s, I know my link wont sodding work, as I have no clue how to do it, so could someone please fix it for me. *Feels totally useless when it comes to links :(*
I'm not sure what that has to do with it, that was a mod that went on to become a full game in its own right.
Posted July 07, 2011
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Denezan: I will refer you to this [url=]http://www.moddb.com/mods/killing-floor[/url]
This is the Unreal Tournament 2004 Total Conversion mod Killing Floor. I would say that some overhauls of pre released games are legal somewhat, and there are some that do an even better job of the originals.

P.s, I know my link wont sodding work, as I have no clue how to do it, so could someone please fix it for me. *Feels totally useless when it comes to links :(*
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Gremmi: I'm not sure what that has to do with it, that was a mod that went on to become a full game in its own right.
The point is that it started as a simple mod, made by fans for fans, with a new spin on an already classic game. Is that not what a fan made game is? A mod in a sense.
Post edited July 07, 2011 by Denezan
Posted July 07, 2011
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Ubivis: It is absolutely illegal to use the IP of someone else without his permission, and even worse if you use the original graphics.
This statement is so full of shit I don't even know where to begin taking it apart. I don't think it's even close to true in Germany.
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SLP2000: AFAIK, music pariodies (pariodies generally) are legal in Poland (and I really can't imagine it otherwise).
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cjrgreen: The borderline between a parody (also legal in "fair use" jurisdictions) and a ripoff is always ill-defined, and there are always copyright holders (and their lawyers) willing to argue both sides.

Just saying something is a parody doesn't qualify it for protection as a parody. If you get challenged on it, you have to prove it's a parody. If you make your living as a parodist, you're going to get to know your lawyer pretty well.
Weird Al Yankovic only asks permission out of politeness, he's not legally obliged to do so, or so many sources have claimed (among those people who speak on his behalf).
Post edited July 07, 2011 by orcishgamer
Posted July 07, 2011
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Gremmi: I'm not sure what that has to do with it, that was a mod that went on to become a full game in its own right.
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Denezan: The point is that it started as a simple mod, made by fans for fans, with a new spin on an already classic game. Is that not what a fan made game is? A mod in a sense.
In the example of killing floor, Tripwire did approach alex quick(mod developer) and they wanted it as a mod for R:O he declined at the time, than a couple of years later he approached them and see if they wanted to do it.

Than with a combination of the original mod team and Tripwire made the retail game, I liked it and pre-ordered it as im a fan of their games.

Im surprised EA never persued the makers of keeperfx especially now with the gog release.
Posted July 08, 2011
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Gremmi: I'm not sure what that has to do with it, that was a mod that went on to become a full game in its own right.
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Denezan: The point is that it started as a simple mod, made by fans for fans, with a new spin on an already classic game. Is that not what a fan made game is? A mod in a sense.
When you say a new spin on an already classic game, what do you mean exactly? A fangame isn't just a copy of an idea, it's a copy of IP. Killing Floor was new IP.
Posted July 08, 2011
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Denezan: The point is that it started as a simple mod, made by fans for fans, with a new spin on an already classic game. Is that not what a fan made game is? A mod in a sense.
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Gremmi: When you say a new spin on an already classic game, what do you mean exactly? A fangame isn't just a copy of an idea, it's a copy of IP. Killing Floor was new IP.
I dont know how many times I must say this but I shall say it again so you can grasp it. It is a *MODIFICATION* of the original game. It is a mod. A fan game is a *MODIFICATION* of an original game, with a fan made spin on it. Regardless if you make a new game out of it, or if you spruce up the content available, it is STILL modified. /sigh

And to clarify, Killing Floor is now a standalone game, but when it was created it was simply a total revamp of Unreal Tournament 2004. A full content mod that reworked the entire game
Post edited July 08, 2011 by Denezan
Posted July 08, 2011
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Gremmi: When you say a new spin on an already classic game, what do you mean exactly? A fangame isn't just a copy of an idea, it's a copy of IP. Killing Floor was new IP.
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Denezan: I dont know how many times I must say this but I shall say it again so you can grasp it. It is a *MODIFICATION* of the original game. It is a mod. A fan game is a *MODIFICATION* of an original game, with a fan made spin on it. Regardless if you make a new game out of it, or if you spruce up the content available, it is STILL modified. /sigh

And to clarify, Killing Floor is now a standalone game, but when it was created it was simply a total revamp of Unreal Tournament 2004. A full content mod that reworked the entire game
Frankly, I find the assertion that a fangame is a mod to be fairly ludicrous. A fangame can be an entirely new standalone release with completely new assets and a specifically built game engine. The point is that a fangame is using existing IP. It doesn't even have to be based on another game, it could be from a TV show, a film, a book, a comic...saying a fangame is a modification of an existing game is bizarre.

I'm just not sure why you're making the comparison, especially with a mod that was brand new IP.
Posted July 08, 2011
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Denezan: I dont know how many times I must say this but I shall say it again so you can grasp it. It is a *MODIFICATION* of the original game. It is a mod. A fan game is a *MODIFICATION* of an original game, with a fan made spin on it. Regardless if you make a new game out of it, or if you spruce up the content available, it is STILL modified. /sigh

And to clarify, Killing Floor is now a standalone game, but when it was created it was simply a total revamp of Unreal Tournament 2004. A full content mod that reworked the entire game
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Gremmi: Frankly, I find the assertion that a fangame is a mod to be fairly ludicrous. A fangame can be an entirely new standalone release with completely new assets and a specifically built game engine. The point is that a fangame is using existing IP. It doesn't even have to be based on another game, it could be from a TV show, a film, a book, a comic...saying a fangame is a modification of an existing game is bizarre.

I'm just not sure why you're making the comparison, especially with a mod that was brand new IP.
The fact is........ya know what, fuck it. I just cant be arsed arguing with you. I am too tired to care.
Posted July 08, 2011
Now I am even more confused than I was to begin with. Some of you are saying that it is legal (which is good), but some of you are saying that it is illegal. So lets run with the illegal side of things... Is it only illegal to MAKE a fan game, or is it also illegal to DOWNLOAD a fan game?
Posted July 08, 2011
Fan games give developers a pool of inspiring game developers to select from if they need to employ someone new.

Also, fan made games keep old games fresh in people's minds thus making it easier for developers to continue pushing future releases of old franchises.

It's considered 'Moding' and as with all Moding, as long as the amateur level designers do not attempt to make a profit from their mods it should all be good.
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General discussion (archive)Are fan games legal?(80 posts)(80 posts)
(80 posts)