This is what "should" happen, but I'm only aware of it happening when the "uber bastion of evil" Microsoft has been in charge (Allegiance is probably the best example). There may be some minor shit I'm forgetting but it's more of an American company move than a Japanese or Korean company move (at least in the video game industry).

He sent it to NCSoft. He was just publishing here to share with this community.

The game you're looking for is called Wildstar, in development by Carbine Studios, backed by NCSoft and with some CoH heavyweights developing it.

Everything he listed appears in various games, maybe without that exact combination but with other equally appealing "bullet points". As much as fans make of CoH there's just as many or more that found it "meh", the reality probably lies somewhere the "meh" and the gushing above.

Finally, to address the whole "we couldn't sell it" thing, you can have people who want to buy something, but only for a pittance, and it may be more strategic to mothball the asset at that point. NCSoft has a ton of F2P initiatives right now, do you think they really want another game competing for dollars in a market that may very well be close to saturation? Or do you think they'd rather have people move to Aion and Lineage 2?

A game can be "making money" and not fit with the comapny's long term strategy, when they happens you may see something like this happen. As much as most are disagreeing with him, SV is spot on correct, when you support a MMO this will eventually happen, even to the ones burning as "embers".

With fan owned servers, the integrigy goes out the window, ie padded drop rates and hacking abounds.
And StimgingVelvet hits.the nail on the head. This was just business, and if the "awesome" community let thsemselves get duped, it's their own fault. NCsoft will NEVER sellips to fans. Fans offered two million for Tabula Rasa and were denied.

It's your own fault. You bacled the wrong horse, and the wrong sport.

I may not play the game much, but this is such a shame. Two words: Private Server

ON TOPIC: NCSoft is a greedy corporation that self cannibalizes regularly. This is no surprise. I'm sorry to the OP that he/she lost one of the games that they spent a great deal of time and emotion on, but it's the nature of mmos and none of them are guaranteed to last forever.

You might notice a small problem with longevity with that prospect.

As for the prospect of selling, keep in mind that the Titan Network {community hub, basically} approached NCsoft with intent to buy, and received no response at all. If NCsoft really was willing to sell, it would only be expected to present a price, terms, parts that they would be willing to sell and ones they would be willing to license, etc. Lacking any indication of what NCsoft considers an acceptable price for the IP, what exactly can one infer?

As for shunting the CoH players into other NCsoft titles like Aion or, given the rather auspicious timing, Guild Wars 2 or Boob and Skin {I'm a believer in descriptive naming} it's quite possible, likely even, that that's what we were expected to do. Except... we're not willing to, because if you glance them over, you'll see that they're anything but interchangeable with CoH's design philosophy.


At this point, I don't think there is a viable alternative. A more distributed model can work - has worked, in fact, for well over a decade - for micro multiplayer games, mostly FPSes and strategies, but the appeal of a massively multiplayer games is in the concurrency. For that you need servers, organized development, testing, balancing... even player-owned, whoever is in charge would de facto be the publisher. So until we make the kind of developments needed for a decentralized MMO foundation, this model is the only option available.

Yes, but they should at least be guaranteed to last while they're profitable. As for the self-cannibalization, you're correct there - but in our defense, CoH began before NCsoft's cannibalization became apparent. Which is the main point of the letter itself - by deciding whether or not to open the IP for sale, or locking it away for good, NCsoft is making the decision of whether their reputation as the "MMO killer" gets some leeway or it crystallizes - and for MMO players, the illusion of permanence, especially in the kind of MMOs where they're expected to invest inordinate amounts of time and money just for the prospect of entertainment, that's often a make-or-break factor.

The way I understand it, an MMO publisher model looks something like:

1) Invest $X in developing or aquiring a game
2) Begin investing subscription fees in excess of monthly expenses (loan repayments, payroll, etc) in developing/acquiring new MMO.
3) Plan expansions to counteract subscription dips.
4) Close game when numbers dip irreconcilably, shuffle disgruntled users into other games, who will forgive and forget anyway. Those that won't will be replaced.

I hate to sound rude, but it's your own fault for investing so much of yourself into a game with no end, that you have no ownership over, that's sole goal was to extract money out of you every month until it wasn't profitable anyway.

And ANYONE that gave NCsoft money for an MMO subscription after their recent track record deserves *everything* they got and then some.

In this world, you get three votes, your mouth, your dollars, and your fists. Use them wisely. We are hearing from those that are using the first too late, the second incorrectly, and the third not at all.

I see no more problem with it than with any other MMO. The Warhammer Online that is limping along at this point might as well be dead, it's certainly not the game I want to play. Some undead MMO afterlife isn't necessarily the best ending for all games either.

As for the Titan Network, whoever they are, all you've got is everyone else's word on the matter, I am not sure why you ascribe more confidence in what they're saying than anything else. They could be fudging the truth as well. Regardless, NCSoft doesn't give a crap, clearly doesn't intend to sell to anyone for terms anyone else will accept, it's case closed. Yeah, it ended with a whimper, but NCSoft does not give a crap and never will. You'll do better investing in other games, if you want to believe avoiding NCSoft games will insulate you from this kind of disappointment, then by all means avoid them, it may even turn out to be true.

CoH closed a week or two after Arena.NET launched GW2, I seriously doubt they intend to reap mass profits by trying to get you to buy their game with no sub whatsoever. NCSoft is trying desperately to avoid the fate of a primarily MMO based company, they just had to convert two of their biggest titles to F2P, they're the only ones that have backed new, AAA MMO development in the last 3 years and may actually be regretting it just now. Each installment of GW costs them a metric fuck ton in up front development costs. I'm not defending how they closed down the studio, it was clearly timed on the first day of PAX in order to avoid being the top headline. But, for whatever reason, NCSoft felt like CoH was the weakest link in their strategy to survive, so it got the shit can.

Selling the assets may not even be legally possible, do you know what proprietary tools and code CoH may rely on to work? I don't. That stuff may not be transferable. The only people who knew the code aren't anymore, they're fired. I don't know what you think there is left to salvage, NCSoft doesn't want to let go and all they're holding onto is a carcass that's mostly been picked clean.

Mercedes Lackey, the author, is very active with the Titan Network. Neil Gaiman is also helping to save CoH, but I'm not sure what, if any, connection he has with Titan. There are other fairly well-known names trying to convince NCSoft to sell the property.

You don't close down an entire development studio in the middle of making a new content expansion with the community people posting updates from it that morning without there being something more going on. There was no indication whatsoever that this game was in any sort of danger. You don't allow your development staff to plan out the next year to two years in feature design nor have a big ol' "NOW HIRING!" sign on the game's website if there is any reasonable chance of it going down the tubes.
The chances of Wildstar ever seeing the light of day are pretty slim, IMO. It's not "backed by" NCSoft, Carbine Studios is owned by NCSoft. As for the "CoH heavyweights", please name them. I can't see anyone that got fired by NCSoft going back to them. The only heavyweights I can think of that could possibly be working there are Castle and Back Alley Brawler, but Castle is over at ZeniMax Studios, last I heard. There will never be another game like City of Heroes since it breaks with so many of the accepted conventions of the MMO genre.

Jeremy Gaffney is one, I'm talking about people who used to be involved in CoH but have been involved in Wildstar since the beginning. Anyone joining right now would be necessarily a bit late to the game to make any serious impact on it.

I believe there were several others, but I could be wrong about that. Still, if you liked CoH one might think having the same executive producer would make Waldstar interesting to you. Carbine is actually made up of quite a few industry vets with pretty recognizable work under their belts.

I don't know if Wildstar will make it to launch or not, but has anyone else greenlit a AAA MMO in the last 3 years? Yeah, didn't think so.

Look I don't know why the shit can happened, or if the reasons are good or bad, I have some guesses, but they may bear little resemblance to reality. Current reality is quiet apparent, however, it's gone, there isn't anything left to "buy" and even if there was it might not be in NCSoft's legal power to sell it.

Tell me, why in the fuck would I ever give NCSoft one thin dime after this? Wildstar could be the best MMO in the world, but NCSoft's track record is about the worst anymore. They haven't gotten the nickname MMO Killer for nothing. I will not get invested in any game that bears the NCSoft logo simply for the fact that they can, and most likely will, pull the plug with no warning whatsoever. Especially not after the deplorable actions they have performed here. Once bitten, twice shy. Though in this case, it's four times bitten, five times shy.

IF, and that's a mighty big if, Wildstar actually makes it out of the gate, I give it a year before they cancel it like almost everything else that wasn't Asian-style grindfests.

City of Heroes is not "gone". The IP exists. The database of characters exists. The game engine exists. They own the IP 100% after buying out Cryptic's rights several years ago. One reason I figure they don't want to sell is because in so doing, if someone else can make it much more successful, they look like idiots because they didn't do shit to market the game. Come December 1st, they could completely wipe the databases and delete all source code, THEN it would be gone. But even then, the game data exists and people could reverse engineer the software necessary to run it. There has been an immeasurable dissection of the underlying code functions of the game over the last 8 years.

Oh, and MMOs under development? That's a nice cherry picking of years there to support your position. If you made it five or so, you could easily get several in there (either in development or already released), such as DCUO, TERA, The Secret World, The Elder Scrolls Online, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Star Wars: The Old Republic, and The World of Darkness Online. NCSoft isn't the only game in town and I'd be an idiot to give them any more money.

I'm "cherry picking" 3 years because that's the industry standard development cycle for AAA MMOs, that is extremely fucking relevant. Note that EA green lit the Secret World before the "crash" and probably desperately wished they had not. As far as I know, no one outside of NCSoft has a AAA MMO in development, period.

If you don't want to support Wildstar, don't, I really don't care. One of my only two points about it was that the game is likely to sport a lot of the features and charms of CoH, which half the posters in this thread are waxing poetic about (far beyond its actual charms I might add). The other one was it's being backed by NCSoft, who is the only publisher currently backing AAA MMO development AT ALL.

All your other examples have been released and subsequently failed, were either the impetus that led to the subscription MMO crash (which was inevitable, btw) or were lucky enough to have been green lit before everyone got gun shy and released to a world that already didn't give a fuck because they were already happy with their F2P MMOs.

I think you, as well as other posters in this thread, don't fucking get why software can not be for re-sale. While NCSoft may own the "IP", that IP is 100% useless without the tool chain to modify and extend it. If that tool chain contains proprietary software (whether that software is contained in the final product or not) they cannot provide that tool chain for sale. That makes the entire "IP", which everyone claims is so valuable, nearly worthless.

Alternately, it could simply be that NCSoft is trying to integrate F2P into their income stream and see no reason to sell off an asset that could become competition to them. Yes, that means they lied to you, just like everyone else did. This is the capitalism and free market that most Americans have such a massive hard on for, yeah it sucks, yeah we'll both live with it (because we largely have no choice).

[citation needed]
The Elder Scrolls Online is in development. Warhammer 40k: Dark Millenium Online was in development till it got switched to a single player with traditional multiplayer. The World of Darkness Online is in development.
Despite whatever charms it may or may not have, it's being controlled/published by a company that has shown, in my opinion, zero fucking regard for either the players or the staff involved. Again, why the fuck would I ever give those people money again?
Wrong. See above.
Still operating does not equal failure. If they were failures, they would be shut down. But since they are still running, even Warhammer Online is still going, they aren't. They may not be pulling in the WoW behemoth monies, but if they were truly failures, they wouldn't still be around. Some may be on life support, but they are still active.
And your knowledge of CoH is fuck all. Cryptic had internally built the engine that ran/runs the game. Now, it is unclear whether or not NCSoft bought the engine from them or just licensed it as part of the deal to gain the IP. There isn't any hard data one way or another. And no, even if those tools weren't available, the IP itself would still be valuable, along with the costume options, the characters, the story lore, the powersets, the city, and every goddamn thing else that comprises the game. Selling the IP without the engine also allows for sequels to be built with more modern technology.
CoH has been F2P for over a year. If it was "capitalism", then they would axe the games that sucking money out of them with no return. CoH was profitable. It wasn't major profit, but it was consistent money coming in every month. You don't go from active development (with a new powerset being sold the week before the announcement) to full stop dead. And considering that games such as Ultima Online and Everquest are still around, even if it was in maintenence mode, it should still be around. Again, no indication whatsofuckingever that it was in danger or was dragging anything down. I'm not going to respond to you again, so reply or not, I could give a shit.