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Do you guys remember that picture from that "separatist" at the crash site, holding up a teddy bear as a trophy at the crash site, it was all over the news in Germany, like "how can that bastard do that, those separatists are evil."

Watch the full vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyGsx2x0CIY

There is quite a propaganda war going on and it seems there are groups who would like to see Russia weakened, because some western corporations had at the time Jelzin was president nearly the foot in the door to get Russia's Ressources - oil and gas. Khodorkovsky and Abramovich were the spearhead to get those deals done, Putin stepped in. Otherwise many ressources in Russia would now be owned by western corporations. Furthermore russian oil and gas is traded in Rubels, not in Dollar. Russia has a strong economy, 20 % debt of the GDP, which is nothing compared to most western countries.

I hope this does not end in war or a new Iron Curtain, I will be here on the streets then. God we live in the 21st century, war should not be an option for anything.

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MaGo72: Thanks for the correction, the piece I had it form mentioned it being produced during war time.

edit: ok, I was just about to get doubts about the source, because I watch/read quite a lot from that author.
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Cadaver747: Germany as a country have nothing to do with Nazi regime. It could have with any other country at that time. The war quickly escalated after economic difficulties.

Please remind me what was the country which actually make good money on that.

Obviously and stupid? Maybe, but effective. USA made itself a country number 1.

Any why? Oh no, it was a Great Depression just before that time. How convenient.

My point is that: no, I absolutely disagree that economic sanctions (or troubles) may lead to anything else than war. Even despite my expertise in FPS games (no relation to reality) I still think so.
Willy Wimmer a former german state secretary of the Bundesminister für Verteidigung said exactly that in an interview Cadaver747, sanctions are measures to prepare a war against that country the sanctions are aimed at.

edit:
Wimmer left out the FPS part :).
Post edited December 05, 2014 by MaGo72
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Cadaver747: My point is that: no, I absolutely disagree that economic sanctions (or troubles) may lead to anything else than war. Even despite my expertise in FPS games (no relation to reality) I still think so.
I think sanctions can be implemented without the actual desire for war against that country. A clear example is Cuba. The US has had sanctions against Cuba for decades (which I have been against since I was a child), but hasn't clumsily attempted to invade from the fringe side of the government in many decades either.
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Cadaver747: My point is that: no, I absolutely disagree that economic sanctions (or troubles) may lead to anything else than war. Even despite my expertise in FPS games (no relation to reality) I still think so.
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budejovice: I think sanctions can be implemented without the actual desire for war against that country. A clear example is Cuba. The US has had sanctions against Cuba for decades (which I have been against since I was a child), but hasn't clumsily attempted to invade from the fringe side of the government in many decades either.
They did not invade, because Cuba was backed by the Soviet Union for a long time. Basically they were forced to make a pact with the Soviet Union, because the threat of being invaded was so high.

Noam Chomsky said that in one of his speeches.

edit:
There was even a general who proposed an invasion plan, but Kennedy did not like it and did send the general to Europe as SACEUR.
Post edited December 05, 2014 by MaGo72
Fifth Generation Warfare
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misteryo: Economic sanctions may be bad, but they are actually an attempt at avoiding war. How does one country coerce another to change it's behavior? Armed conflict is one way. Economic pressure is another. Both are harsh, but your experience in video games aside, economic pressure is less dangerous.

Hang in there. The whole world teeters on the brink of war most of the time. But most people want peace, for selfish reasons, for religious reasons, for economic reasons, for comfort... Hang in there.
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Cadaver747: Strange, I always thought that any limitation getting things worse and angers your opponents. It's a dirty game in global economic world.

For example. Let's just imagine that half the world initiates economic sanction against China.
Would the be piece in that reality?

But thank you. I really do hope the people will not pass the war option.
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OlivawR: They're hard on propaganda everywhere.
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Cadaver747: Yes, it's all propaganda here. News sources changed suddenly, many articles are politically oriented.

All we should know is that Russia equals good; USA - bad; Europe - not so good lately; Ukraine - 2 countries (Ukraine + Novorossia > some historic data was pulled to prove this point especially); Brazil - your meat is great, but why it's so expensive?; Belarus - we don't want to be friends...

I still don't get it
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MaGo72: Mmmh no, they are not, basically sanctions weaken the economic foothold in a country and unrest against the existing government is likely. They are more a preparation, before ...and the big companies do trade as before, even in WW2 Ford, IBM and some petrol company (I forgot the name of the company) did still business with Germany, Coca Cola even invented Fanta for the Germans as Coca Cola was not really popular at that time anymore in Germany.
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Cadaver747: According to our *source* economic sanction were invoked in order to weaken political prestige of current government elite. And provide a possible scenario for *peaceful* revolution from below.
My everywhere was meant to this whole world. Here in the west is the Russians, the EU, the democrats, the liberals, the unemployed, the left, the right, the commies, the immigrants. They basically cover any possible enemy people can have in their little brains.
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MaGo72: They did not invade, because Cuba was backed by the Soviet Union for a long time. Basically they were forced to make a pact with the Soviet Union, because the threat of being invaded was so high.
Agreed, but we now approach equality of time between the revolution and the dissolution of the Soviet Union and the time between that dissolution and now. The sanctions continue and there just isn't going to be an invasion.

(Interestingly, though, the Sicilians have been laying groundwork in Cuba for years - the US mafia screwed things up so royally, they want to do it the correct way.)
Good old Wars
Why? Putin. He's a strong leader, which is something any country needs. But he does see Cold War Russia as being Russia at its pinnacle. The height of its powers. So it's hard to interpret his actions any other way than deliberately and consciously recreating that state of affairs.
Yes I do read some financial news as well:

Interresting with the whole situation is, that some smaller oil companies in the US are being forced out of business, because of the sanctions and the decision not do lower oil output.

Russia as being said already is NOT trading in US-dollars. So was the decision of Saddam Hussein before being removed.

Coincident?

I am not sure. And war against the USSR? You gotta be laughing..........That's more than a joke........

US already being overstrechted, German military anything but ready to fight, UK kind of strechted, and so on......

Who shall fight this war? And unlike Iraw and Afganistan the USSR has working AA-defense.

Me thinks, espacially as oil is EXCLUDED from the sanctions, the actually big oil is behind this scenario, trying to bankrupt some indipendent oil producers (even including to a certain extend Russia). Hey, even most Countries like the Oil price being high as they can really nicely cash in on it as well (OIl-tax, which we pay when filling up our car, in some countries as high as 80%).

If Russia and the smaller indipendant producers would be allowed to further produce, it would endanger big oil, am I right?

And what do you do, if you can't get the state to forbid it or similar, pull the strings to escalate a situation......

For the Krim: Yes, if you look up history, part of Ukraine was part of original Russia. But according to this, shall Italy (Rom) request, that 70% of (western) Europe plus complete North Africa and so on shall belong to them again?

But also for the Russian government it is a nice opportunity to get the country back in line! There is nothing better than foreign problems to showcase that their country is much better. It can (and is being used( as a tool to re-inforce local products, good for the local industry.

What I find quite astonishing: China is holding still........AFAIR didn't they sign a treaty with Russia long time ago, which would make them an allied for them?

And now imagine if china would stop all exports to the West, especially to the US.............Aint gonna happen ;)

Just my quick 2 cents
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Goodaltgamer: Yes I do read some financial news as well:

Interresting with the whole situation is, that some smaller oil companies in the US are being forced out of business, because of the sanctions and the decision not do lower oil output.

Russia as being said already is NOT trading in US-dollars. So was the decision of Saddam Hussein before being removed.

Coincident?

I am not sure. And war against the USSR? You gotta be laughing..........That's more than a joke........

US already being overstrechted, German military anything but ready to fight, UK kind of strechted, and so on......

Who shall fight this war? And unlike Iraw and Afganistan the USSR has working AA-defense.

Me thinks, espacially as oil is EXCLUDED from the sanctions, the actually big oil is behind this scenario, trying to bankrupt some indipendent oil producers (even including to a certain extend Russia). Hey, even most Countries like the Oil price being high as they can really nicely cash in on it as well (OIl-tax, which we pay when filling up our car, in some countries as high as 80%).

If Russia and the smaller indipendant producers would be allowed to further produce, it would endanger big oil, am I right?

And what do you do, if you can't get the state to forbid it or similar, pull the strings to escalate a situation......

For the Krim: Yes, if you look up history, part of Ukraine was part of original Russia. But according to this, shall Italy (Rom) request, that 70% of (western) Europe plus complete North Africa and so on shall belong to them again?

But also for the Russian government it is a nice opportunity to get the country back in line! There is nothing better than foreign problems to showcase that their country is much better. It can (and is being used( as a tool to re-inforce local products, good for the local industry.

What I find quite astonishing: China is holding still........AFAIR didn't they sign a treaty with Russia long time ago, which would make them an allied for them?

And now imagine if china would stop all exports to the West, especially to the US.............Aint gonna happen ;)

Just my quick 2 cents
Of course war against USSR would be a joke. However Soviet Union times are almost forgotten, and it's a different country now. Moreover it's not necessary to make a war on opponent's territory. Ukraine was chosen to measure political prestige between power players.

As for Crimea, oh no, history was just used as an excuse to annex the territory. It's a bad move, sometimes bad moves are necessary to secure sea base. As you might remember we had an agreement with Ukraine: 1) provide war support among CIS countries; 2) hold off NATO/UN interests, 3) maintain Navy base at Black Sea (the most important one)

Yeah, it's good that Russian government trying to get the country back to prosper. I don't like how it's done. We could have better market politics with Europe Union, but now they *hate* us, because we are *weak*.

China is the most powerful country in current world. Biggest and strongest army. Mass provider for variety of goods and services. Quite rapidly growing economy. Crimes are in control too. It's a machine. Thankfully we have similar interests for a time being. In 10 years China might overview it's position regarding Russian vast and unused territories.

If China would stop all exports when the world would collapse. Only Philippines could benefit from it :)

I still need some kind of reassurance that there will not be a war. Because if it is, then we all here might be requested to serve in army once again, and it's almost not possible to refuse such a tempting offer, to die willingly for a great cause and no point altogether...
Due to the food embargo from the EU, this is a good time for Russia to import more cheese from Switzerland. You're already buying sizable amounts but you could be buying so much more. With enough Swiss cheese, Russia could say #fuckyouall to the European Union.
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Cadaver747: I don't want war! But every country in the whole world choose that option! Why???
Because the people who make those decisions are unaffected by them - you won't see any of the American warmongers' children going off to war. All they see is the money their "donors" make off of selling munitions and such
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Cadaver747: Recent increase in war themed movies on Russian television went almost unnoticed. Most of them are about World War II and how Soviet Army honorably fought against Nazi (and its allies) enemy commanded by non other than Hitler.
It's the prequel you should be worried about. Dolchtoss is alive, well, and sponsored by our tax money.
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Cadaver747: Recent increase in war themed movies on Russian television went almost unnoticed. Most of them are about World War II and how Soviet Army honorably fought against Nazi (and its allies) enemy commanded by non other than Hitler.

So I asked myself a question. In what cases government decides to show movies about war. Hmm, so it seems...

Today I read a news article that our president made some insinuations about Hitler analogy.

I don't get Germany. Today they are diplomatic, but tomorrow they kinda hate us, really hard.

I can't understand Netherlands. Why can't you public your official report about Boeing crush. If it's us - say it. If not - say it.

These economic sanctions. Come on we all played Civilization IV, it's bad for market and leads to war.

I don't want war! But every country in the whole world choose that option! Why???
In the USA, around certain National holidays, there is always an increase in war themed TV.

For example , for a few weeks around Veteran's Day (Nov 11), there was a ton of war-themed TV ("specials" on the likes of CNN and others, lots of war "documentaries" on the "history and discovery" channels, etc.). Same goes for other "press", such as news-websites, blogs, etc.

If one was "paranoid", and didn't know about that (or ignored it), they could make a similar OP in regards to the USA.

Is there a similar situation in Russia? Could it "just" be in relation of a holiday or something? Or is it actually UNATCO making moves?
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Cadaver747: Recent increase in war themed movies on Russian television went almost unnoticed. Most of them are about World War II and how Soviet Army honorably fought against Nazi (and its allies) enemy commanded by non other than Hitler.

So I asked myself a question. In what cases government decides to show movies about war. Hmm, so it seems...

Today I read a news article that our president made some insinuations about Hitler analogy.

I don't get Germany. Today they are diplomatic, but tomorrow they kinda hate us, really hard.

I can't understand Netherlands. Why can't you public your official report about Boeing crush. If it's us - say it. If not - say it.

These economic sanctions. Come on we all played Civilization IV, it's bad for market and leads to war.

I don't want war! But every country in the whole world choose that option! Why???
I thought it was obvious by now that Putin/Kremlin constantly refers to World War 2 and Russian victory over "the west" (in this case Nazi Germany) in the rhetoric to gain support against Ukraine and "the west" (this time the EU, NATO, Japan, whatever else)

The Nazi reference is because the minority presence of them in Ukraine, Putin creates thus an image of "reenacting" WW2 in the image of fighting Ukraine and its supporters. It isn't exactly directed against Germany, but the continued aggression against Ukraine and the longstanding Nazi rhetoric and reminders of WW2 creates a side-effect in Germany that more and more Germans are just fed up with the Russian propaganda rhetoric and see it as some kind of personal insult against the German people.

According to OSCE and Malay investigations the attack on the plane was launched from pro-Russian rebel held territory, Ukraine and the EU is said to have released additional confidential information on the event to some nations, like Netherlands and Australia. I don't know the details of the information but anyone who checks the news can notice that both Australia and Netherlands became much more hostile towards Russia after that. This may mean the allegations of direct Russian involvement in attacking a civil plane as Ukraine's government claims has merit. Too much "political correctness" means today that you will hear "a certain third party" and similar shady non-committal statement instead of "this guy, and that nation" being directly named. You can easily guess who is being pointed at with fingers usually though.

Economic sanctions are the only way if nations want to look committed to a side without actually truly being that. By both UK and USA weaseling their way out by non-commitment to the Budapest Memorandium claiming "it isn't really breaking an agreement as nothing was truly agreed upon" hard sanctions are basically the only way the leadership can save some face before the world leaders who watch the events very carefully, like those of Japan and China.

Nobody really wants a war, but Russia is already at war. I don't just mean the invasion and annexation of parts of Ukraine, but also the recently sped up annexation of Abkhazia that could create a new hot war with Georgia, breaking the current stagnancy. There is also the aerial skirmishing in & near EU/NATO air space in last half year (Norway, Sweden, Finland, Baltic states) which makes everyone uneasy, and of course the war with Japan that Russia is officially in since WW2, and is not resolved yet due to the Russian occupation of the Japanese Kuril islands.

The media just tries to avoid calling the "crisis" or "conflict" that Ukraine and Russia are in a war, because official recognition of this fact would mean a strong political change and the need for different political tone, and worse.
Still, to anyone who steps a bit back and looks at the big picture, unilateral invasion, occupation, annexation of territories like in case of Crimea obviously means being in a state of war.


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MaGo72: Willy Wimmer a former german state secretary of the Bundesminister für Verteidigung said exactly that in an interview Cadaver747, sanctions are measures to prepare a war against that country the sanctions are aimed at.
I actually agree that in most cases this is a true statement, and sanctions are a good political tool to force investors to cut ties and get rid of assets of the targeted nation, and allow the economy to rebalance itself while dependence on goods and services are lowered between the nations involved in sanctions.

A good example for this kind of activity is Russia breaking banking/monetary ties with western nations, turning focus of foreign policy (towards China, North Korea, Cuba, Iran instead of Europe and USA), constant harassment (investigations, close downs, etc) of large foreign owned companies of certain nations (McDonalds, IKEA, Pepsi, various agricultural companies), or the proclamations from the Kremlin about the future self-sufficiency of military industry (which currently uses a lot of western imported parts) and increased military presence/spending, or even the end of international cooperation in space projects.

All these show a hostile attitude and a longterm plan for decreasing economical and military cooperation, which are indeed usually a sign of large war planning which may happen in circa 7-10 years from now.
Post edited December 05, 2014 by joriandrake