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KingofGnG: So, you defend this kind of shit? You like DRM? I've got problems with the industry using the DRM, that's all.

Then don't play games at all. Or stick to games that are DRM free. Pirating games is not and never has been 'sticking it to the man'. All it does is encourage publishers to use more restrictive DRM that harms people like me who buy games. DRM doesn't affect piracy this is true, however the opposite is also true that I highly doubt you would have paid full price for Alpha Protocol if it was DRM free. DRM is just a convenient excuse for those who have no intention of buying games.
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KingofGnG: So, you defend this kind of shit? You like DRM? I've got problems with the industry using the DRM, that's all.
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Delixe: Then don't play games at all. Or stick to games that are DRM free. Pirating games is not and never has been 'sticking it to the man'. All it does is encourage publishers to use more restrictive DRM that harms people like me who buy games. DRM doesn't affect piracy this is true, however the opposite is also true that I highly doubt you would have paid full price for Alpha Protocol if it was DRM free. DRM is just a convenient excuse for those who have no intention of buying games.

There are some people who would. I used to be one of those...but probably a minority?
Otherwise agreed. Please don't ruin the experience for the rest of us. Buy DRM free and/or play freeware and mods...
@KingofGnG
Nobody likes DRM. At least not the intrusive, malware-like, highly restrictive kind (I am sure nobody minds the old, "disc must be in tray" DRM). But honestly, continuing to pirate, won't really solve anything. Guys like you, are the reason why guys like me, suffer the agony of DRM.
What is truly sad, is that this site is supposed to have "classic games for a classy community." You clearly lack a sense of community and class. If you don't care for the industry, only play old games. Only buy games that are DRM free. Heck, wait for them to make the game DRM free. that is what I did with iTunes. After buying three albums, I ceased making purchases from iTunes until the music was DRM free. Low and behold, it is. But don't sit here and make excuses or try to justify your actions.
Have the testicular fortitude to at least admit that you do it, and leave it at that. The only moral high ground that excuses theft, is when it is done to survive (e.g. stealing bread to eat). All else, is just shaky ground and a poor code of ethics. At least have the strength of character to own up to that.
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KingofGnG: I've got problems with the industry using the DRM, that's all.

Then don't buy, steal or play the games concerned. being a thief, and worse openly telling everyone that you're doing it, is just pissing all over the rest of us. We're the ones who end up suffering because you think its clever to be a thief.
Sad posts. You are victim of the industry propaganda about this digital "piracy" that should ruin the world. Maybe my behaviour isn't the best thing to do, but it's a choice like another. I "pirate", buy, download and play games the way I want since years. I've always done so and I'll continue to do this way because I have the choice to do so. And I'm saying it because I'm not an hypocrite person.
Frankly speaking, accusing someone to "ruin" the industry just for a damn download is a very, very weak argument. It's you opinion and you have the right to express it, but don't take a stance of "superiority" because it isn't an appropriate one.
Bits are meant to be copied, everywhere, anywhere you copy them even when you read them from disk to memory. The only piracy I recognize is the one that is on counterfeit disk, that is something I won't do because it is wrong.
I like ventures like GOG not just because bit are "legit" here (even though, I have to admit, in the end I value this too), but for the fact that the GOG team has a very nice policy about old, classic DRM-free games. That's all.
Post edited May 05, 2010 by KingofGnG
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KingofGnG: You are victim of the industry propaganda about this digital "piracy" that should ruin the world.

Says the thief. Sorry, but their is nothing "superior" in your choice to break the law because you simply have no self restraint. Downloading torrents of games because you don't like DRM is no different to the counterfeit disk you reference. You are still illegally using something because you don't want to pay for it. Mature a little would you. Learn to do without if you don't like the DRM.
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KingofGnG: Frankly speaking, accusing someone to "ruin" the industry just for a damn download is a very, very weak argument.

Ok now imagine that everyone thought the same way as you, imagine everyone just considered 'bits' on the internet as free. Then no one would buy any games over the internet. But it doesn't stop there once someone has ripped a retail DVD then it too is just 'bits' and therefore free by your reasoning. Making games no longer makes any money and welcome to a future of Facebook games and MMO's.
The fact remains that for you to pirate Alpha Protocol you have to rely on shmucks like me to buy it so they will make more games for you to enjoy free. If you don't see the fatal flaw in your argument then like Bansama said you really need to mature.
Post edited May 05, 2010 by Delixe
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Syme: It's not the industry; it's the rest of us, the players, that you're screwing over.
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KingofGnG: So, you defend this kind of shit? You like DRM? I've got problems with the industry using the DRM, that's all.

I don't see how pointing out the fact that piracy encourages publishers to use DRM is defending it. It's merely a fact. I certainly do not like DRM, and I wish you would stop being part of the group that makes me have to deal with it. While I blame the industry for the idiotic schemes they come up with, I blame the pirates more that it is an issue in the first place.
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KingofGnG: Bits are meant to be copied, everywhere, anywhere you copy them even when you read them from disk to memory.

You're insane.
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KingofGnG: Bits are meant to be copied, everywhere, anywhere you copy them even when you read them from disk to memory.
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michaelleung: You're insane.

I don't think he depends on his creations for a living. Or does anything for a living. Maybe lives in an alternate universe where the streets are made of candy and chocolate and video games are made by simply imagining them? How he found his way here I couldn't hope to guess.
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KingofGnG: Sad posts. You are victim of the industry propaganda about this digital "piracy" that should ruin the world.
Frankly speaking, accusing someone to "ruin" the industry just for a damn download is a very, very weak argument. It's you opinion and you have the right to express it, but don't take a stance of "superiority" because it isn't an appropriate one.
Bits are meant to be copied, everywhere, anywhere you copy them even when you read them from disk to memory. The only piracy I recognize is the one that is on counterfeit disk, that is something I won't do because it is wrong.

On one hand, you are correct. Piracy figures are often inflated by various entertainment industries, so as to justify their oppressive tactics. Just because a game is pirated, does not mean it was a lost sale. After all, there is no way to measure that a person would have actually purchased the game they are pirating. In many documented cases, people who pirate certain games, movies or songs, only play, watch or listen to it, because they have "free" access to it. If there was no pirate alternative, they would likely not use it at all.
Conversely, it is still wrong and still stealing. You are gaining access to something that you would normally have to pay for, in order to have access to it. So while it is not necessarily a "lost sale that will cripple revenue" like many of these companies erroneously argue, it is a stolen product.
Also, yes a disc is copied when you install it to a drive and run that copy, and in most EULAs, the license specifically grants you that use and that copy. In fact, the Half Life EULA states that you are allowed only two copies of the game. One on your hard drive (as the installed game) and one on the disc you purchased. When a person uploads a game for others to download, they are clearly breaking that contract, as there are now more than two copies of that individual's purchased disc. The same is true for other instances of pirated games. There are no two ways about it. It is piracy, plain and simple and it is not justifiable.
The only remotely accepted form of piracy, is the use of Abandonware. If a copyright holder fails to enforce their own copyright or maintain access to a product that was once offered, then there is little reason to get angry with a consumer who takes "illegal" routes in order to gain access to said software. This is why Abandonware exists. It is like the public domain of software (only technically. legally, perhaps not). But this only refers to something like Thexder (good luck finding that game), not something like Alpha Protocol, which is brand new and legally available, in abundance.
Post edited May 05, 2010 by Kailos
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Kailos: On one hand, you are correct. Piracy figures are often inflated by various entertainment industries, so as to justify their oppressive tactics. Just because a game is pirated, does not mean it was a lost sale. After all, there is no way to measure that a person would have actually purchased the game they are pirating. In many documented cases, people who pirate certain games, movies or songs, only play, watch or listen to it, because they have "free" access to it. If there was no pirate alternative, they would likely not use it at all.

Yep.
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Kailos: Conversely, it is still wrong and still stealing. You are gaining access to something that you would normally have to pay for, in order to have access to it. So while it is not necessarily a "lost sale that will cripple revenue" like many of these companies erroneously argue, it is a stolen product.

I'm aware of this, but I'm also aware of the fact that this "stealing", as you call it, is made by millions at the same time. It's something that isn't just stealing, it's a major technology evolution that needs to be addressed with something different than just law enforcing. Sometimes, in history, law need to be revised and this is this time.
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Kailos: Also, yes a disc is copied when you install it to a drive and run that copy, and in most EULAs, the license specifically grants you that use and that copy. In fact, the Half Life EULA states that you are allowed only two copies of the game. One on your hard drive (as the installed game) and one on the disc you purchased. When a person uploads a game for others to download, they are clearly breaking that contract, as there are now more than two copies of that individual's purchased disc. The same is true for other instances of pirated games. There are no two ways about it. It is piracy, plain and simple and it is not justifiable.

Again, I'm aware of this, but I still "pirate" the game. Just like many, many others do. I mean, I regularly purchase retail games from time to time, but I also use "piracy" to see if that game is worth my money. During the years I've spent thousand euros on software I have previously put my hands on. It isn't an unfair thing to do at all from my point of view. I'm the pirate, I'm the user, I'm the one that purchase stuff. So I win. In this decision-making process, DRM is just a nuisance.
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Kailos: The only remotely accepted form of piracy, is the use of Abandonware. If a copyright holder fails to enforce their own copyright or maintain access to a product that was once offered, then there is little reason to get angry with a consumer who takes "illegal" routes in order to gain access to said software. This is why Abandonware exists. It is like the public domain of software (only technically. legally, perhaps not). But this only refers to something like Thexder (good luck finding that game), not something like Alpha Protocol, which is brand new and legally available, in abundance.

Again, I agree. But for the law's matter, piracy is piracy so if you download old software from abandoware sites you're just a dirty, industry-screwing pirate. They could sell the old software you download, so you're a pirate. Obviously, this "digital piracy" thing is just folly. I'd add some in-depth links on the issue but I'm too lazy at the moment....
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chautemoc: I don't think he depends on his creations for a living. Or does anything for a living. Maybe lives in an alternate universe where the streets are made of candy and chocolate and video games are made by simply imagining them? How he found his way here I couldn't hope to guess.

I write news on Punto Informatico for a living. The site is creative-commons compliant, and yet I make a decent money a month. I'm more aware of the issue I'm talking about than you can think, indeed...
Post edited May 05, 2010 by KingofGnG
This sounds alot like the activation method used by alcohol soft's cd burning applications. They had a nice web ui interface for deactivating installs, even when the computer the software was activated on no longer existed. They only had 1 seat per license so alpha protocol's system is already far better. If Sega keeps their promise and patches out the drm in the future, then I have no complaints. (unless it causes massive hardware breakage like some earlier drm systems have been known to do)
Post edited May 05, 2010 by pb1866
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KingofGnG: I'm aware of this, but I'm also aware of the fact that this "stealing", as you call it, is made by millions at the same time. It's something that isn't just stealing, it's a major technology evolution that needs to be addressed with something different than just law enforcing. Sometimes, in history, law need to be revised and this is this time.

Please understand that I am not judging you. Honestly, I am not an innocent when it comes to this. I don't pirate games or comic books anymore (as I used to), but I have been known to watch movies through non-legal streaming services. However, I don't rely on that. In fact, I buy movies often. I just purchased Twilight: New Moon (yes I know, it's Twilight...but what can I say, I am a fan of vamps and wolves) on Blu Ray. So I understand that people who pirate, also tend to be people who do support the industry that they pirate from.
I am merely against the act of trying to make any sort of ethical justification for piracy of this kind. If you pirate, do so in an unapologetic fashion rather than trying to find some gray, moral high ground. With that said however, I do entirely agree with you. It is clear that we are on the advent of a new technological paradigm. It is sad that every industry (save for the book industry. Bless the Nook and the Kindle) has fallen drastically behind the digital movement.
These entertainment corporations cling to their old formats and defend them, rather than progressing. The film industry has some what caught on. Many movies these days, include a digital copy from iTunes or for Windows Media Player. iTunes itself is showing that the music industry finally caught on (now if only we could go back to the older $0.99 flat rate per song). Sadly, these companies are almost too late. Steam, Impulse, GOG and other sites like this are a step in the right direction, but out of control DRM is primarily holding everything back. So on that note, I do agree entirely. There needs to be a new outlook and perhaps new laws to go along with this new paradigm.
Perhaps I misjudged your character, because of your initial hostility. Now, I relate more to your position and I have a better understanding of why you feel the way that you do. I still see no moral or ethical ground for your argument. At the end of the day, we are infringing upon copyrights. And honestly, we know better. We should be more responsible and ethical.
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KingofGnG: I write news on Punto Informatico for a living. The site is creative-commons compliant, and yet I make a decent money a month. I'm more aware of the issue I'm talking about than you can think, indeed...

Creative Commons licensed work is analogous to free-to-play games. Play those.
Most publishers have good intentions and just want you to buy their games. Some have ideas of how to get you to do that you don't agree with, but that doesnt justify piracy. If you don't like their ideas, don't buy and don't pirate. Typically the only reason DRM is implemented is to maximize sales...nobody wants to spend thousands of dollars and many hours implementing and testing the DRM and investing in increased tech support just to punish you...
If you really don't like DRM, don't pirate, and buy DRM-free games. This is the best you can do. Pirating will only make it worse. It's like complaining about your health, saying 'fuck it, I'm taking up smoking', then complaining when it gets worse. Don't complain about DRM if you're going to pirate. It's just ridiculous.
Post edited May 05, 2010 by chautemoc