It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
Gundato: Heaven forbid you ever hear about people who play tabletop warfare games. I know people who spend more on miniatures in one month than I spend on games in a year :p. They must be REAL freaks in your eyes.

I've done my fair share of tabletop gaming - fucking expensive as it is. But I never did it so I could build a OMG OVER 9000 POINT ARMY then move on to the next game and never return to it. Tabletop gamers game for the same reasons most video gamers game - because they enjoy those games.
Although some are more interested in the painting and scenery creation they still actually enjoy it. They have an avid interest in the universe the game is set in and appreciate the creative opportunities tabletop gaming offers. It's not done just to rack up points in a game they could not care less about just because it's an obsessive compulsion of theirs.
avatar
Ralackk: Read the article in its entirety its all in there.

You expect Gundato to have read the article? Then they'd know what they were talking about and not have any means of creating completely baseless assumptions on no actual information whatsoever. That would be completely out of character.
Post edited December 11, 2009 by Navagon
avatar
Gundato: Heaven forbid you ever hear about people who play tabletop warfare games. I know people who spend more on miniatures in one month than I spend on games in a year :p. They must be REAL freaks in your eyes.
avatar
Navagon: I've done my fair share of tabletop gaming - fucking expensive as it is. But I never did it so I could build a OMG OVER 9000 POINT ARMY then move on to the next game and never return to it. Tabletop gamers game for the same reasons most video gamers game - because they enjoy those games.
Although some are more interested in the painting and scenery creation they still actually enjoy it. They have an avid interest in the universe the game is set in and appreciate the creative opportunities tabletop gaming offers. It's not done just to rack up points in a game they could not care less about just because it's an obsessive compulsion of theirs.
avatar
Ralackk: Read the article in its entirety its all in there.

You expect Gundato to have read the article? Then they'd know what they were talking about and not have any means of creating completely baseless assumptions on no actual information whatsoever. That would be completely out of character.

Are we now at the personal attack stage? If so, "Your mama smells like a mule" :p
But, just to keep drawing the parallels and actually having a discussion:
“I definitely play more games I don’t enjoy than games I do,” she says. “Like, maybe 65 percent of the games I play I don’t enjoy.”
But she likes the Gamerscore game. I enjoy playing Total Anniholation, but I actually dislike about 80% of the default maps. Yet I still play, because the endgame is always so sweet.
“I keep saying when I get 200,000 gamerscore, I’m going to retire,” Kristen says. “There are people who do that. I say it now, but I don’t think you can ever actually quit. It’s like a drug. It is addicting.”
"Just one more game before I go to sleep" or "I'll quit when I beat the high score".
“It’s very much a personal pride thing, being ranked in the top five in the world in something, whether it’s gaming or the fact I’m a female gamer,” Kristen says. “I’m never going to be in the Olympics, so I’ll be a great gamer. It’s something I know I’m good at.”
"It's very much a personal pride thing, being ranked in the top five in the world in something, whether it's gaming or the fact I'm a female gamer.". Oh, wait, I don't even need to modify that one.
avatar
BladderOfDoom: how did they string an article of that length from such a boring subject?

If you think that's bad try reading anything written by Tim Rogers. That guy rambles on way too much, especially given how boring he makes everything. After just a couple of paragraphs I feel like inventing a device which could punch him through the Internet. His writing is that annoying.
avatar
Gundato: "It's very much a personal pride thing, being ranked in the top five in the world in something, whether it's gaming or the fact I'm a female gamer.". Oh, wait, I don't even need to modify that one.

Racking up points in Naruto and Avatar games doesn't make one a good gamer. In fact, spreading yourself so thinly across so many different games ultimately means you won't be very good at any of them. A master of nothing, as the old saying goes.
Like the article says, achievement whores take turns in beating each other resoundingly to get these scores. If they had to play against anyone who was actually playing competitively they'd fold instantly. They wouldn't stand a chance. Not the mark of 'the top five' gamers in the world, I'm sure.
So if that's to be believed then she's also delusional on top of her other problems. You're not exactly winning me over yet, it must be said.
avatar
Gundato: "It's very much a personal pride thing, being ranked in the top five in the world in something, whether it's gaming or the fact I'm a female gamer.". Oh, wait, I don't even need to modify that one.
avatar
Navagon: Racking up points in Naruto and Avatar games doesn't make one a good gamer. In fact, spreading yourself so thinly across so many different games ultimately means you won't be very good at any of them. A master of nothing, as the old saying goes.
Like the article says, achievement whores take turns in beating each other resoundingly to get these scores. If they had to play against anyone who was actually playing competitively they'd fold instantly. They wouldn't stand a chance. Not the mark of 'the top five' gamers in the world, I'm sure.
So if that's to be believed then she's also delusional on top of her other problems. You're not exactly winning me over yet, it must be said.

Racking up points in Naruto and Avatar don't earn your respect? Well, that right there is the metric for an accomplishment :p. Because everyone I know worships the ground I walk on because I fly like a bat out of hell in Freespace. Wait, that isn't true...
As for competitive gamers: If you were to get the world's best CS:S player and pit him or her against even an average Street Fighter player, dime to a dollar the average guy (or gal) would win. I believe you made a similar argument.
Again, if you can just pop down the whole "eww, she isn't a gamer because she doesn't do what I do" for a second, you'll see what I am trying to say. Her "game" is Gamerscore, and she is very good at it. My "game" might be playing racing games with damage models and driving backwards so as to make the largest possible crash. Someone else's "game" might be to spank the crap out of people in Team Fortress 2. And a third person's "game" might be Football (American or Soccer). Gasp, shock, and amazement: We aren't all the same.
avatar
Gundato: <snip>

But she's openly saying that she doesn't enjoy it most of the time. That's the real crux of the matter. Yes, the score is her 'game' but it's one played through compulsion. Not one that's returned to time after time because she really enjoys it.
If you take gaming and turn it into a chore, like she has, then realistically, addiction is the only thing that is going to drive you to keep on achievement whoring.
If she came across like she enjoyed it then that would be another matter. But instead she effectively winds up portraying herself as an addict rather than someone who really enjoys what they do.
Hence why I can't accept this in the way you choose to portray it any more than I can accept that WoW addicts who destroy their lives and alienate those around them are making a healthy choice that is not being determined for them by their addiction.
avatar
Gundato: <snip>
avatar
Navagon: But she's openly saying that she doesn't enjoy it most of the time. That's the real crux of the matter. Yes, the score is her 'game' but it's one played through compulsion. Not one that's returned to time after time because she really enjoys it.
If you take gaming and turn it into a chore, like she has, then realistically, addiction is the only thing that is going to drive you to keep on achievement whoring.
If she came across like she enjoyed it then that would be another matter. But instead she effectively winds up portraying herself as an addict rather than someone who really enjoys what they do.
Hence why I can't accept this in the way you choose to portray it any more than I can accept that WoW addicts who destroy their lives and alienate those around them are making a healthy choice that is not being determined for them by their addiction.

Keep in mind the context of the article. While I doubt she enjoys every second of the (meta)game, it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine that it might not be the full story. I still that her comments regarding being in the top five are justification enough for most people.
Let's use a few more examples:
I loved NWN's second expansion (Hordes of the Underdark). I hated the first one (Shadows of Undrentide), but I always felt compelled to take a char through them in order. As such, I would always dread the first hour or two of SoU (when you are too weak to do anything fun), but love HotU.
One of my friends loves tabletop warfare gaming and has too much pride to field a grey army. But at the same time, she hates painting miniatures. So she suffers through painting her miniatures so that she can enjoy spanking the crap out of people on the battlefield/table cloth :p
I love God of War. Great game. But I hate button mashing, and you actually have to mash a button to do the killing move on big enemies. But by the 3/4 point of the game, I am incapable of pushing the button fast enough to do the killing move. So I grow to hate fighting every single big enemy. Hell, using GoW2, I absolutely hate having to use the Golden Fleece to deflect energy attacks at a certain boss. And I mean I absolutely hate it. But I suffer through for the satisfaction of the ending.
avatar
Gundato: Keep in mind the context of the article. While I doubt she enjoys every second of the (meta)game, it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine that it might not be the full story. I still that her comments regarding being in the top five are justification enough for most people.

Top five of what though? Top five people who group together to cheat on a ton of games to 'earn' their achievements? Who play shitty, easy kids games just for the points? That's basically like labelling yourself as being in the world's top five failures.
It's the achievement whore equivalent of bragging about completing a game on god mode. It's a piss poor justification on her part. So I don't see why you'd expect me to acknowledge it as more than that. She's basically doing nothing more than showing up how pointless the gamer score is.
In the examples you listed you're (or someone else is) still doing something you enjoy, even if you don't enjoy all of it. It's not an obsessive compulsion. It's something that you can walk away from and if you found it more annoying than fun you probably would have walked away from it. But something keeps you going back, and it's not that you're addicted.
avatar
Gundato: Keep in mind the context of the article. While I doubt she enjoys every second of the (meta)game, it isn't too much of a stretch to imagine that it might not be the full story. I still that her comments regarding being in the top five are justification enough for most people.
avatar
Navagon: Top five of what though? Top five people who group together to cheat on a ton of games to 'earn' their achievements? Who play shitty, easy kids games just for the points? That's basically like labelling yourself as being in the world's top five failures.
It's the achievement whore equivalent of bragging about completing a game on god mode. It's a piss poor justification on her part. So I don't see why you'd expect me to acknowledge it as more than that. She's basically doing nothing more than showing up how pointless the gamer score is.
In the examples you listed you're (or someone else is) still doing something you enjoy, even if you don't enjoy all of it. It's not an obsessive compulsion. It's something that you can walk away from and if you found it more annoying than fun you probably would have walked away from it. But something keeps you going back, and it's not that you're addicted.

It sounds to me as if your primary complaint is that you don't approve of people who play for achievements.
She enjoys getting the high score. She doesn't enjoy everything she has to do to get that high score, but she enjoys the high score.
And what if she IS in the top five of "cheaters' as you refer to them. She is still in the top five of a group that she wants to be a part of.
To use a crude stereotype (but since you have already used them, I don't feel as dirty :p): the world's best CS:S player is just the world's best loser who "can't get laid" and plays a stupid game.
The world's best Madden player is just the world's best loser who "can't get laid" and would rather fiddle an analog stick than throw a pigskin around.
The world's best boxer is just the world's best psychopath who has learned to not use his legs or bite (unless you are talking about Tyson).
It is all a matter of perspective.
avatar
Gundato: It is all a matter of perspective.

Just so as to ensure this doesn't get completely lost in subjective semantics; you originally argued that there was no difference between wanting to get a high score in your favourite game and wanting to get a high score in every game, just for the sake of getting that score. No matter how that score was obtained.
Like I said: given that what she's doing is nothing more than the equivalent of playing with god mode on, there is no achievement. There is no score. There is nothing more than the knowledge that you can and have cheated to obtain a score and a meaningless one at that.
A score you spent a lot of money obtaining. A score you've spent half the time playing shit you hate to 'achieve'. Even if the score was everything in the world she has still achieved nothing. Yet in spite of this she thinks she's in the top five gamers? She'd probably fail to beat anyone who was actually playing against her on any one of those games.
There is evidence of nothing more here than a delusional addict.
I've got nothing against playing for achievements on games I/other people like. But let's not confuse that with the antics of achievement whores.
Equally, let's not pretend that I can't understand why people like things I don't. You're desperately trying to warp this into a case of me not understanding anything I don't like. Which isn't surprising. But boring all the same.
avatar
Gundato: It is all a matter of perspective.
avatar
Navagon: Just so as to ensure this doesn't get completely lost in subjective semantics; you originally argued that there was no difference between wanting to get a high score in your favourite game and wanting to get a high score in every game, just for the sake of getting that score. No matter how that score was obtained.
Like I said: given that what she's doing is nothing more than the equivalent of playing with god mode on, there is no achievement. There is no score. There is nothing more than the knowledge that you can and have cheated to obtain a score and a meaningless one at that.
A score you spent a lot of money obtaining. A score you've spent half the time playing shit you hate to 'achieve'. Even if the score was everything in the world she has still achieved nothing. Yet in spite of this she thinks she's in the top five gamers? She'd probably fail to beat anyone who was actually playing against her on any one of those games.
There is evidence of nothing more here than a delusional addict.
I've got nothing against playing for achievements on games I/other people like. But let's not confuse that with the antics of achievement whores.
Equally, let's not pretend that I can't understand why people like things I don't. You're desperately trying to warp this into a case of me not understanding anything I don't like. Which isn't surprising. But boring all the same.

Even if she is just playing to get a high score for the sake of a score (and she isn't, read the article :p), that is her choice. That is her sense of achievement.
And you say there is no achievement in what she does? Okay, that is what you think. She seems to think there is some degree of achievement. Hell, let's use the new Prince of Persia. The player has godmode all the time, yet people feel achievement from being that.
As for her being in the top five of gamers: Like I said, how do we define "top five"?
Are we talking about CS:S players? If so, is it their kill:death ratio? Or maybe it is how often they knife people? Or maybe it is how many kills they have made in their entire "career".
Or maybe we go with Street Fighter and measure it in how often they win. But that doesn't take into account the people who win in a really cool way.
Or maybe it is the people who manage to kill a few hundred thousand zombies in Generic Zombie Game #5.
Or maybe it is the people who beat a game in under 8 hours.
I guess somebody could keep track of a number that represented an overall level of achievement. Sure there would be some issues, but I guess it could work. Someone should do that.
Wait a moment! There already IS a number designed to represent an overall level of achievement!
So your complaint is that she plays games you don't like? How is this not a matter of perspective? And I don't think it has to do with you not understanding this. I think it has to do with you feeling some degree of animosity toward people with high Gamerscores. I mean, you call her a whore every five seconds :p
avatar
Gundato: Wait a moment! There already IS a number designed to represent an overall level of achievement!

Yes! What a stroke of genius! Let's use a scoring system which has been completely exploited and destroyed by achievement whores to prove that those same people are the greatest chea- gamers ever! You must let me know your address so I know where I should send the award for Most Glaringly Obvious Oversight of the Month!
avatar
Gundato: So your complaint is that she plays games you don't like? How is this not a matter of perspective? And I don't think it has to do with you not understanding this. I think it has to do with you feeling some degree of animosity toward people with high Gamerscores. I mean, you call her a whore every five seconds :p

No. I couldn't care less if I don't like them. I'm not the one playing them. What causes the Raised Eyebrow of WTF to earn its title is the fact that she doesn't like them. Furthermore, she buys them knowing she won't like them. She buys them. She uses a group of... like minded people to help her cheat her way to through the rather ironically named achievements. Then she rinses and repeats with the next one.
Leaving only a score which has been completely invalidated by people like her in her wake. Why? Who knows. But I'm definitely not inclined to put it down to having exceptional mental health.
As for ill feelings towards those with high gamerscores: given that they've basically been cheating to get them and never once actually enjoyed the game itself, well, let's just say that if they were politicians I wouldn't vote for them. But then becoming a politician would be indicative of a desire to do something productive. So It's not like that's going to happen anyway. :P
Stallion83, the global No. 2:
“Party chat has made some of these games less painful.”
YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!
Post edited December 11, 2009 by Namur
avatar
Gundato: Wait a moment! There already IS a number designed to represent an overall level of achievement!
avatar
Navagon: Yes! What a stroke of genius! Let's use a scoring system which has been completely exploited and destroyed by achievement whores to prove that those same people are the greatest chea- gamers ever! You must let me know your address so I know where I should send the award for Most Glaringly Obvious Oversight of the Month!
avatar
Gundato: So your complaint is that she plays games you don't like? How is this not a matter of perspective? And I don't think it has to do with you not understanding this. I think it has to do with you feeling some degree of animosity toward people with high Gamerscores. I mean, you call her a whore every five seconds :p

No. I couldn't care less if I don't like them. I'm not the one playing them. What causes the Raised Eyebrow of WTF to earn its title is the fact that she doesn't like them. Furthermore, she buys them knowing she won't like them. She buys them. She uses a group of... like minded people to help her cheat her way to through the rather ironically named achievements. Then she rinses and repeats with the next one.
Leaving only a score which has been completely invalidated by people like her in her wake. Why? Who knows. But I'm definitely not inclined to put it down to having exceptional mental health.
As for ill feelings towards those with high gamerscores: given that they've basically been cheating to get them and never once actually enjoyed the game itself, well, let's just say that if they were politicians I wouldn't vote for them. But then becoming a politician would be indicative of a desire to do something productive. So It's not like that's going to happen anyway. :P

While I fully agree that some people exploit the achievement system, I cite the following:
Valve's forums. Seriously, every single time anything new comes out, everyone screams and complains that the game is unbalanced and ruined.
Hell, let's use CoD4. People who play with Promod say that having the highest score in the core game is worthless because people "cheat" by playing in a manner they don't like. People who don't play Promod say that the highest score in Promod is worthless because people "cheat" by playing in a manner they don't like.
So can you see how one person's cheating is another person's gameplay?
And, for the umpteenth time: She likes the Gamerscore game. She might not like Avatar, and maybe she loved Call of Duty. But she likes the Gamerscore game, and THAT is what matters. Avatar and Dora the Explorer are just "levels" she doesn't like.
And you say she invalidated the score. Maybe, maybe not. But clearly she does not feel it to be invalidated, so why is her achievement (in her eyes) any less because you don't approve of it?
Seriously, drop the prejudice. We get it, you think they suck. They ruin all gaming for you. But if they enjoy it, maybe they are just playing it "wrong" in your eyes, but not their own.
avatar
Gundato: But clearly she does not feel it to be invalidated, so why is her achievement (in her eyes) any less because you don't approve of it?

I already said she was deluded. Why therefore do you think I'd care how it looked to her?
If you have read the article you'd know she was plainly cheating to get the score, so why would you be unsure about this?
As for CoD4, that game is famously exploited to death as well. No wonder they're all confused by who's exploiting it the most. That is one of the excuses that IW gave for removing dedicated servers from MW2. Ultimately it's another example of how gamer scores ultimately mean nothing. Thus further proving my point, if anything.