Aye gvriper is right, a decent joystick isn't too bad these days. Mine (Logitech Extreme 3D pro) is a very good stick with lots of buttons/functionality and can be found for $30 or less. There are many okay sticks that can be found for less than at as well ($20 or less). Obviously there are really expensive setups, but they aren't necessary to play even serious sims - they just add perks (sometimes very nice perks, but perks).

I think I'll check out that Logitech stick, around $30 sounds about right. Sticks were always at game stores, but I never actually bothered to check them out. Good thing the holidays are right around the corner :)

sure, over and over again ;)

I hate it when games like IL-2 Sturmovik and Simcity 2000 are grouped together, as if they really had anything in common from the gameplay point of view. Ok, they are both trying to "simulate" something...

As I said in my post, depending on what definitions one uses and just how far one decides to stretch it, one could say that there are few, if any games that aren't a "simulator" of some type. :)

True. Lately I've been playing also VMWare Player, I wonder if GOG will ever get it? It is (DRM-)free after all.

The original question suggested that simulation games(?) have a bad rep. First I thought it was referring mostly to "vehicle simulations" like flight combat sims etc., and I was ready to object. But then, I don't care that much for Capitalism or football manager games. I haven't tried them that much, maybe I'll fall in love as soon as I get over the steep-ish learning curve, but for the most part they appear more work than fun to me. I get to use Excel enough at work.

Ps. A friend of mine at work was just yesterday showing the definite "flight simulator", e.g. the system where a model plane has a tiny wireless video camera attached to it, and you get to see the view from it in your virtual goggles as you steer the model plane with a joystick. I've seen some youtube videos of that system in the past, but now I know someone who has it for real! Can't wait to get to test it (if my workmate just lets me). Apart from real sports cars, sounds like the definite toy to me.

May be true, but then you don't easily get to fly the real plane (without pilot's certificate), and with a "simulator" you can pretty safely try grazy stunts that you wouldn't dare in real life. Also I presume a smaller model plane (with a camera) gives a bit more possibilities for silly spying etc. if you are into that (can fly it lower than a real airplane etc.), who knows.

They can offer it as a free one for signing up!

Well, if you get in touch with some flying school or a club that do training and have aircraft with dual controls they might let you hold the stick in flight, just to get the feel of it. Not take off and landing, however, the real plane is just as easy to break as a model then. :)

As for spying with a model, the camera has a pretty narrow FOV, doesn't it? You'll have to fly at what you're spying on and model engines are quite high-pitched and noisy. Oh, and flying at people is not recommended, because any static on the control channel can temporarily turn the model into a fast and heavy projectile. Also, smaller plane = more vulnerable to wind.

While that does sound like fun ... I have to admit I'd probably prefer to stick with the computer simulated flying - crashing has no monetary consequence. :)

Hey now ... there's a new game mode/DRM solution. If you die, it not only deletes your saves for the game, it deletes the game! Now that's hardcore. It will upload your death to the publisher's website and you have to pay money to play the game again! And for pirates, the game just kills you over and over again so you'll just keep having to reinstall it and they'll never make a false distinction between pirates and real consumers (of course). Quick, call Ubisoft! This sounds perfect for them.

(I apologize for this inane post, I'm very tired and should go to bed)

nevermind

I was just reminicing about saving my finely tweaked, circuit specific setup to 3.5" floppy on Micropose GP on the Amiga Yesterday - good times!
What simulator-ish stuff have people not said?
Mech Warrior 2 and 3 and Crimson Skies come to mind
Someone said ArmA, right?
Elite 2!

Actually I've only played it for a few hours in total. I don't have the time or motivation to learn it properly. Maybe I'll get back to it later on. I'm quite impressed with it, though. Level of detail, improved graphics (BMS) which look even better than LOMAC and so on.

Happy to help. Jane's FA is compiled from a series of games from EA/Jane's such as U.S. Navy Fighters, Advanced Tactical Fighters and a few others. I used to play USNF a lot when I was a kid.

Keep in mind that these "survey" sims (featuring many flyable planes) from EA are more of a mix between arcade'ish action games and flight simulators. They have their flaws. They're quite simplified in terms of physics/principles of flight, operations in general etc. They don't provide a good sense of speed either, I'm afraid. The graphics are from the mid-1990s.

Maybe you should check out the ATF demo for a small taste of the concept. You can run it using DOSBox.

Some screenshots can be found here:

http://www.alexstoll.com/ATF/FAss.html

You'll also find relevant videos on YouTube.