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Longcat: Then why are there six pages here debating the very question? You don't care, I get that, but I think your statement that nobody else cares is somewhat bold. Try heading over to the ScummVM team and ask them what they think. What they are doing is what I consider "noble" in the way of preserving gaming history.
Because people like you are thrashing out a moral and legal balance that the vast majority of us have already learned to deal with.

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of games out there that will never be available at reasonable prices and which - for whatever reason - are very unlikely to see the light of day ever again on a digital download website.

Yes, abandonware is technically illegal, we get your point. But the fact of the matter is that abandonware sites with some degree of integrity and proper understanding of the abandonware concept will use their judgement to determine whether providing those games for download is going to impact upon the publisher's sales. Sure, there's no 100% way to know (as shown by the recent example of Ultima Underworld), but common sense and judgement should and do go above following the letter of the law.

I mean, in Germany, jaywalking is forbidden explicitly by the letter of the law (Article 76, Road Traffic Regulation), and if a cop sees someone dangerously crossing a busy, high-speed road, then they proably will stop them. But if he sees a guy crossing a road in a village with next to no traffic, even though the crossing is still red ("Don't Walk" for all you Americans out there), he's unlikely to do anything about it.

It's the same reason that most publishers don't act against sites offering old software, even though they've infamously gone after pirates in the past.

Common sense...
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Titanium: One term is de jure (pirated software). The other is de facto (abandonware).
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Longcat: Which doesn't apply because someone still owns the rights to the old games just like someone owns the rights to a newly published game.
De facto is a Latin expression that means "concerning fact." In law, it often means "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law" or "in practice or actuality, but not officially established.
When discussing a legal situation, de jure designates what the law says, while de facto designates action of what happens in practice. It is analogous and similar to the expressions "for all intents and purposes" or "in fact."

Now, seriously, are you doing this on purpose or just comically missing the point?
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Longcat: Which doesn't apply because someone still owns the rights to the old games just like someone owns the rights to a newly published game.


And that automatically gives you the right to distribute the game for free, to anyone?
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hercufles: Well there are sites that ask money for it if you rather have that.
I have no preference either way. What baffles me is that people seem to have the idea that because something isn't readily available to them, that automatically gives them the right to distribute or obtain a copy.
Its really Is clear that noone has vitits abandon sites before, if that game is still licenced then you cant dl the game. And some sites even send a link where you can buy it. Some even link to gog if you want that game.
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Longcat: Then why are there six pages here debating the very question? You don't care, I get that, but I think your statement that nobody else cares is somewhat bold. Try heading over to the ScummVM team and ask them what they think. What they are doing is what I consider "noble" in the way of preserving gaming history.
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jamyskis: Because people like you are thrashing out a moral and legal balance that the vast majority of us have already learned to deal with.

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of games out there that will never be available at reasonable prices and which - for whatever reason - are very unlikely to see the light of day ever again on a digital download website.

Yes, abandonware is technically illegal, we get your point. But the fact of the matter is that abandonware sites with some degree of integrity and proper understanding of the abandonware concept will use their judgement to determine whether providing those games for download is going to impact upon the publisher's sales. Sure, there's no 100% way to know (as shown by the recent example of Ultima Underworld), but common sense and judgement should and do go above following the letter of the law.

I mean, in Germany, jaywalking is forbidden explicitly by the letter of the law (Article 76, Road Traffic Regulation), and if a cop sees someone dangerously crossing a busy, high-speed road, then they proably will stop them. But if he sees a guy crossing a road in a village with next to no traffic, even though the crossing is still red ("Don't Walk" for all you Americans out there), he's unlikely to do anything about it.

It's the same reason that most publishers don't act against sites offering old software, even though they've infamously gone after pirates in the past.

Common sense...
Heh. I think we mostly agree on everything actually. Technically it is illegal, and morally I have no qualms with it whatsoever. I do not, however, see the difference between abandonware and piracy.
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Longcat: Which doesn't apply because someone still owns the rights to the old games just like someone owns the rights to a newly published game.
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Titanium: De facto is a Latin expression that means "concerning fact." In law, it often means "in practice but not necessarily ordained by law" or "in practice or actuality, but not officially established.
When discussing a legal situation, de jure designates what the law says, while de facto designates action of what happens in practice. It is analogous and similar to the expressions "for all intents and purposes" or "in fact."

Now, seriously, are you doing this on purpose or just comically missing the point?
I must be doing it on purpose. Because last time I checked, you could download any newly published software or game quite easily from the internet without being chased downed and imprisoned by the rightsholders. And yes, I am familiar with the terms.
Post edited March 29, 2012 by Longcat
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Longcat: Well, at the end of the day, like I stated before, there are very few games that can't be bought secondhand, and MOST games on abandonware sites are relatively easy to get a hold of on sites like Amazon or eBay.
Which is not really a sale, it gives no money to the publisher, investor or developer. It sends no message of consumer desire or acceptance, it offers no benefit.

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Longcat: So, to me, there really is no moral difference. Even if you want to pretend there is.
One chooses not to support the people who made the game happen when it is expected and easy to do so, the other does not. Clear moral difference you can ignore if you want, but it just makes you look silly.
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hercufles: Its really Is clear that noone has vitits abandon sites before, if that game is still licenced then you cant dl the game. And some sites even send a link where you can buy it. Some even link to gog if you want that game.
I just visited abandonia, and by the first page under adventure games could list over ten games that are still licensed to a company, even if you can not buy it online.
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hercufles: Its really Is clear that noone has vitits abandon sites before, if that game is still licenced then you cant dl the game. And some sites even send a link where you can buy it. Some even link to gog if you want that game.
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Longcat: I just visited abandonia, and by the first page under adventure games could list over ten games that are still licensed to a company, even if you can not buy it online.
starflight for example is a link to gog not all abandon sites do it like that.
Post edited March 29, 2012 by hercufles
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Longcat: I must be doing it on purpose. Because last time I checked, you could download any newly published software or game quite easily from the internet without being chased downed and imprisoned by the rightsholders. And yes, I am familiar with the terms.
Ah, well, here's the kicker - most abandonware sites are out in the open, but for some strange reason, almost nobody (some exceptions) is protecting their rights to the games, even though they easily could. These games are, in fact, forgotten and abandoned. Nobody is making money from them, nobody really cares if they get pirated.
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Longcat: Well, at the end of the day, like I stated before, there are very few games that can't be bought secondhand, and MOST games on abandonware sites are relatively easy to get a hold of on sites like Amazon or eBay.
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StingingVelvet: Which is not really a sale, it gives no money to the publisher, investor or developer. It sends no message of consumer desire or acceptance, it offers no benefit.

And therefore entitles you to a free copy?

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Longcat: So, to me, there really is no moral difference. Even if you want to pretend there is.
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StingingVelvet: One chooses not to support the people who made the game happen when it is expected and easy to do so, the other does not. Clear moral difference you can ignore if you want, but it just makes you look silly.
Again, I have no qualms with the morality of it. But the end of the day, you are getting something for free. Something you do not own the rights to, and legally have no right to. That is piracy to me, either way.
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StingingVelvet: Which is not really a sale, it gives no money to the publisher, investor or developer. It sends no message of consumer desire or acceptance, it offers no benefit.

And therefore entitles you to a free copy?
Uhm now we debate anyway what about freeware? ;p



One chooses not to support the people who made the game happen when it is expected and easy to do so, the other does not. Clear moral difference you can ignore if you want, but it just makes you look silly.
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Longcat: Again, I have no qualms with the morality of it. But the end of the day, you are getting something for free. Something you do not own the rights to, and legally have no right to. That is piracy to me, either way.
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Longcat: And therefore entitles you to a free copy?
And therefore makes it less morally wrong. Remember what we are debating here and don't be one of those people that changes the lines on the game board when they're losing. Those people are annoying.

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Longcat: Again, I have no qualms with the morality of it. But the end of the day, you are getting something for free. Something you do not own the rights to, and legally have no right to. That is piracy to me, either way.
See above.
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Longcat: I must be doing it on purpose. Because last time I checked, you could download any newly published software or game quite easily from the internet without being chased downed and imprisoned by the rightsholders. And yes, I am familiar with the terms.
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Titanium: Ah, well, here's the kicker - most abandonware sites are out in the open, but for some strange reason, almost nobody (some exceptions) is protecting their rights to the games, even though they easily could. These games are, in fact, forgotten and abandoned. Nobody is making money from them, nobody really cares if they get pirated.
Heh, well, no, it's not easy for most companies to protect the rights to the games. If it were, why are there so many torrentsites still active? Most torrent sites are out in the open as well. But at least we can agree on the point that the term should be "pirated" which is really the only point I was trying to make.

And gog should be the best example that most old games are not forgotten. After all, that's why we are here, is it not?
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Titanium: Ah, well, here's the kicker - most abandonware sites are out in the open, but for some strange reason, almost nobody (some exceptions) is protecting their rights to the games, even though they easily could. These games are, in fact, forgotten and abandoned. Nobody is making money from them, nobody really cares if they get pirated.
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Longcat: Heh, well, no, it's not easy for most companies to protect the rights to the games. If it were, why are there so many torrentsites still active? Most torrent sites are out in the open as well. But at least we can agree on the point that the term should be "pirated" which is really the only point I was trying to make.

And gog should be the best example that most old games are not forgotten. After all, that's why we are here, is it not?
Piracy will always exist it was then when the old games were new and it is now, but it used to be more bad because i can remember that is destoyed the commodore because people traded pirare games with eachother.
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Longcat: And therefore entitles you to a free copy?
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StingingVelvet: And therefore makes it less morally wrong. Remember what we are debating here and don't be one of those people that changes the lines on the game board when they're losing. Those people are annoying.

Doesn't make it less morally wrong to me. You still haven't told me why you are entitled to distribute or download someone elses work. I really am not after winning or losing, that should never be the point in any debate, the goal should be to attain new knowledge, which sadly, I have yet to do. It was never my intention to moralize anyone. What I was debating was that the term abandonware makes most people think that these games are freeware.

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Longcat: Again, I have no qualms with the morality of it. But the end of the day, you are getting something for free. Something you do not own the rights to, and legally have no right to. That is piracy to me, either way.
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StingingVelvet: See above.
See what above? Are you saying that you agree that it is piracy, but to you is less morally wrong than pirating new software? Because if you are, then we have finally seen eye to eye.