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General discussion (archive)Abandonia...some questions(139 posts)(139 posts)
(139 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 29, 2012
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StingingVelvet: No, I never pirate anything I could legitimately buy. There is a HUGE moral difference there, even if you want to pretend there isn't.
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Longcat: Well, at the end of the day, like I stated before, there are very few games that can't be bought secondhand, and MOST games on abandonware sites are relatively easy to get a hold of on sites like Amazon or eBay. So what it really comes down to is that you either can't afford to buy said game at a collectors price or that you find it unreasonably expensive and therefore think you should get the game for free. Using SimonG's, analogy you could buy any modern chair relatively cheaply from IKEA, but you really really want the old antique Victorian chair from the 18th century, which you can't afford.
Thats not true there is a lot of diffrence betwean them that antique chair you know you gonne enjoy a very long time while the modern cheap chair you know you need to replace in the new one because the crap it is made from, but to go back to the old games and price, they arent that expansive but the problem is running on a modern pc and who said that modern games are cheap 60$ for a game that you cant finish intill you buy 10 20 $ of dlc.
Post edited March 29, 2012 by hercufles
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: Well, at the end of the day, like I stated before, there are very few games that can't be bought secondhand, and MOST games on abandonware sites are relatively easy to get a hold of on sites like Amazon or eBay.
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gandhi1900: With either of this options, the developers and publishers don't get anything for their work.

So how can you be so sure that it is morally wrong to download games that cannot be bought firsthand?

Your chair anology doesn't make any sense because software is not a physical object. If you were to steal a chair that you want, they you deprive someone else from that object. Downloading abandonware doesn't deprive anyone of anything.
Tell me the difference from downloading any modern game? The rights to those old games still belong to a company, and if they choose not to sell it or make it available to you, that is their legal right. Tell me why you are entitled to a free copy?

And of course the chair analogy doesn't make sense, it's not mine.

Grim Fandango isn't sold anywhere anymore either, do you consider it abandonware?
Posted March 29, 2012
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gandhi1900: With either of this options, the developers and publishers don't get anything for their work.

So how can you be so sure that it is morally wrong to download games that cannot be bought firsthand?

Your chair anology doesn't make any sense because software is not a physical object. If you were to steal a chair that you want, they you deprive someone else from that object. Downloading abandonware doesn't deprive anyone of anything.
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Longcat: Tell me the difference from downloading any modern game? The rights to those old games still belong to a company, and if they choose not to sell it or make it available to you, that is their legal right. Tell me why you are entitled to a free copy?

And of course the chair analogy doesn't make sense, it's not mine.

Grim Fandango isn't sold anywhere anymore either, do you consider it abandonware?
I understand what you mean but the problem is some type of games arent that easy to acces if you like eob kind of games and you dont have a credit card you have a problem and that is where those sites come in handy, but you can also use them when you do own the game but cant install it 3.5 drive or the 5.25.
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: Well, at the end of the day, like I stated before, there are very few games that can't be bought secondhand, and MOST games on abandonware sites are relatively easy to get a hold of on sites like Amazon or eBay. So what it really comes down to is that you either can't afford to buy said game at a collectors price or that you find it unreasonably expensive and therefore think you should get the game for free. Using SimonG's, analogy you could buy any modern chair relatively cheaply from IKEA, but you really really want the old antique Victorian chair from the 18th century, which you can't afford.
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hercufles: Thats not true there is a lot of diffrence betwean them that antique chair you know you gonne enjoy a very long time while the modern cheap chair you know you need to replace in the new one because the crap it is made from, but to go back to the old games and price, they arent that expansive but the problem is running on a modern pc and who said that modern games are cheap 60$ for a game that you cant finish intill you buy 10 20 $ of dlc.
I still don't get why you think you are entitled to a free copy and how that is different from downloading any modern game? Just because you know you are going to enjoy the game, that makes it right to download it? And what is the problem with running it on a modern pc? You gan get a floppy-usb drive for relatively cheap and transfer your games to your computer, just like I did. The fact that they are on an old medium makes you entitled to a free copy? come on.
Posted March 29, 2012
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hercufles: Thats not true there is a lot of diffrence betwean them that antique chair you know you gonne enjoy a very long time while the modern cheap chair you know you need to replace in the new one because the crap it is made from, but to go back to the old games and price, they arent that expansive but the problem is running on a modern pc and who said that modern games are cheap 60$ for a game that you cant finish intill you buy 10 20 $ of dlc.
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Longcat: I still don't get why you think you are entitled to a free copy and how that is different from downloading any modern game? Just because you know you are going to enjoy the game, that makes it right to download it? And what is the problem with running it on a modern pc? You gan get a floppy-usb drive for relatively cheap and transfer your games to your computer, just like I did. The fact that they are on an old medium makes you entitled to a free copy? come on.
Because its the company own fault make it easier to acces those games legaly they dont care about those games because they dont earn them that much money and that is how the game busniss do it these days.
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: The rights to those old games still belong to a company, and if they choose not to sell it or make it available to you, that is their legal right.
Thank you for making my point. Now explain why reselling is okay as that violates the licence that the "company" sold to the original purchaser.
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: Tell me the difference from downloading any modern game? The rights to those old games still belong to a company, and if they choose not to sell it or make it available to you, that is their legal right. Tell me why you are entitled to a free copy?

And of course the chair analogy doesn't make sense, it's not mine.

Grim Fandango isn't sold anywhere anymore either, do you consider it abandonware?
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hercufles: I understand what you mean but the problem is some type of games arent that easy to acces if you like eob kind of games and you dont have a credit card you have a problem and that is where those sites come in handy, but you can also use them when you do own the game but cant install it 3.5 drive or the 5.25.
I get that it's easy and comfortable for you. The problem is that MOST people who download games from abandonware sites do not own a legal copy. And the question we are debating is how this is different from piracy, not how hard it is for you to play your old games. I still haven't seen a valid argument about that.
Posted March 29, 2012
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hercufles: I understand what you mean but the problem is some type of games arent that easy to acces if you like eob kind of games and you dont have a credit card you have a problem and that is where those sites come in handy, but you can also use them when you do own the game but cant install it 3.5 drive or the 5.25.
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Longcat: I get that it's easy and comfortable for you. The problem is that MOST people who download games from abandonware sites do not own a legal copy. And the question we are debating is how this is different from piracy, not how hard it is for you to play your old games. I still haven't seen a valid argument about that.
I did its not accseble for everybody that you have a nice shiny credit card doesnt mean the whole world has it. But i am agreeing with you about downloading and not owning it is a no go. But you can go deeper into this with this lets plays are illigaly then als well since most of them were from emulators and dl. But that case means the game dies a silent death.
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: The rights to those old games still belong to a company, and if they choose not to sell it or make it available to you, that is their legal right.
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gandhi1900: Thank you for making my point. Now explain why reselling is okay as that violates the licence that the "company" sold to the original purchaser.
Well, sure we can debate that. And I most certainly agree with you on this point.
Sure, we can say that this is technically violating the original license, but surely you can tell the difference between reselling an old boxed copy of a game and distributing limitless copies on the internet to people who never owned an original copy in the first place? How is this different to piracy?

And why don't you answer any of my other questions? Do you consider Grim Fandango abandonware?
Posted March 29, 2012
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gandhi1900: Thank you for making my point. Now explain why reselling is okay as that violates the licence that the "company" sold to the original purchaser.
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Longcat: Well, sure we can debate that. And I most certainly agree with you on this point.
Sure, we can say that this is technically violating the original license, but surely you can tell the difference between reselling an old boxed copy of a game and distributing limitless copies on the internet to people who never owned an original copy in the first place? How is this different to piracy?

And why don't you answer any of my other questions? Do you consider Grim Fandango abandonware?
I think thats a game that will die a silent death in the next generation noone will remember this game.
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: The problem is that MOST people who download games from abandonware sites do not own a legal copy. And the question we are debating is how this is different from piracy, not how hard it is for you to play your old games. I still haven't seen a valid argument about that.
One term is de jure (pirated software). The other is de facto (abandonware).
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: Well, sure we can debate that. And I most certainly agree with you on this point.
Sure, we can say that this is technically violating the original license, but surely you can tell the difference between reselling an old boxed copy of a game and distributing limitless copies on the internet to people who never owned an original copy in the first place? How is this different to piracy?

And why don't you answer any of my other questions? Do you consider Grim Fandango abandonware?
There's nothing technical about it. It's a blanat violation of the EULA. Honestly, I don't see a difference between reselling or digital distribution in the eyes of the publisher. Either way they are getting nothing for their product.

If Grim Fandango cannot be bought firsthand anywhere, then yes. It would meet the definition of abandonware put forward in this thread.

I see nothing morally wrong with downloading Grim Fandango for free and then if the publisher chooses to sell licences in the future, buying one then. This is better for the publisher than buying a used copy.
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: Well, sure we can debate that. And I most certainly agree with you on this point.
Sure, we can say that this is technically violating the original license, but surely you can tell the difference between reselling an old boxed copy of a game and distributing limitless copies on the internet to people who never owned an original copy in the first place? How is this different to piracy?

And why don't you answer any of my other questions? Do you consider Grim Fandango abandonware?
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gandhi1900: There's nothing technical about it. It's a blanat violation of the EULA. Honestly, I don't see a difference between reselling or digital distribution in the eyes of the publisher. Either way they are getting nothing for their product.

If Grim Fandango cannot be bought firsthand anywhere, then yes. It would meet the definition of abandonware put forward in this thread.

I see nothing morally wrong with downloading Grim Fandango for free and then if the publisher chooses to sell licences in the future, buying one then. This is better for the publisher than buying a used copy.
True the publisher doesnt earn money from that :)
Posted March 29, 2012
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Longcat: The problem is that MOST people who download games from abandonware sites do not own a legal copy. And the question we are debating is how this is different from piracy, not how hard it is for you to play your old games. I still haven't seen a valid argument about that.
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Titanium: One term is de jure (pirated software). The other is de facto (abandonware).
Which doesn't apply because someone still owns the rights to the old games just like someone owns the rights to a newly published game.
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gandhi1900: There's nothing technical about it. It's a blanat violation of the EULA. Honestly, I don't see a difference between reselling or digital distribution in the eyes of the publisher. Either way they are getting nothing for their product.

If Grim Fandango cannot be bought firsthand anywhere, then yes. It would meet the definition of abandonware put forward in this thread.

I see nothing morally wrong with downloading Grim Fandango for free and then if the publisher chooses to sell licences in the future, buying one then. This is better for the publisher than buying a used copy.
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hercufles: True the publisher doesnt earn money from that :)
And that automatically gives you the right to distribute the game for free, to anyone?
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Longcat: Well, sure we can debate that. And I most certainly agree with you on this point.
Sure, we can say that this is technically violating the original license, but surely you can tell the difference between reselling an old boxed copy of a game and distributing limitless copies on the internet to people who never owned an original copy in the first place? How is this different to piracy?

And why don't you answer any of my other questions? Do you consider Grim Fandango abandonware?
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gandhi1900: There's nothing technical about it. It's a blanat violation of the EULA. Honestly, I don't see a difference between reselling or digital distribution in the eyes of the publisher. Either way they are getting nothing for their product.

If Grim Fandango cannot be bought firsthand anywhere, then yes. It would meet the definition of abandonware put forward in this thread.

I see nothing morally wrong with downloading Grim Fandango for free and then if the publisher chooses to sell licences in the future, buying one then. This is better for the publisher than buying a used copy.
So you get to decide what is better for the publisher? The most common argument used for piracy is that consumers should be able to try out the game/music/software before they buy it, how is this different? What gives you the moral right to decide over someone elses license?
Post edited March 29, 2012 by Longcat
Posted March 29, 2012
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Titanium: One term is de jure (pirated software). The other is de facto (abandonware).
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Longcat: Which doesn't apply because someone still owns the rights to the old games just like someone owns the rights to a newly published game.
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hercufles: True the publisher doesnt earn money from that :)
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Longcat: And that automatically gives you the right to distribute the game for free, to anyone?
Well there are sites that ask money for it if you rather have that.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Abandonia...some questions(139 posts)(139 posts)
(139 posts)