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Emob78: From reading these posts it sure makes me glad Europe is so free of socialist tripe. It's refreshing to know that everyone has the solutions to all of the systemic problems created by the very system that they support.
Sarcasm on

Yeah, and we all know, how true capitalism saved the world NOT

Sarcasm off

As I stated before, look at the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron and the resulting changes.......

If I misunderstood you, my appologies beforehand, otherwise:

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it: George Santayana
Post edited December 02, 2014 by Goodaltgamer
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Emob78: From reading these posts it sure makes me glad Europe is so free of socialist tripe. It's refreshing to know that everyone has the solutions to all of the systemic problems created by the very system that they support.
Can we NOT try to turn this thread into a socialism is "evil" thread?
Post edited December 02, 2014 by monkeydelarge
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Emob78: From reading these posts it sure makes me glad Europe is so free of socialist tripe. It's refreshing to know that everyone has the solutions to all of the systemic problems created by the very system that they support.
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monkeydelarge: Can we NOT try to turn this thread into a socialism is "evil" thread?
Dito

as planned economics has nothing to do with socialism.

One is an economic model and the other one is a political ideology.......
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Emob78: From reading these posts it sure makes me glad Europe is so free of socialist tripe. It's refreshing to know that everyone has the solutions to all of the systemic problems created by the very system that they support.
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monkeydelarge: Can we NOT try to turn this thread into a socialism is "evil" thread?
No.
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monkeydelarge: Can we NOT try to turn this thread into a socialism is "evil" thread?
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Emob78: No.
So be it....

Capitalism has caused more suffering than anything else in this world and will lead humanity to it's doom. :) It brings out the worst in human beings. If you look closely at everything Ayn Rand said...it's no different than what you will find in this book.
http://www.amazon.com/Satanic-Bible-Anton-Szandor-Lavey/dp/0380015390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417488170&sr=8-1&keywords=satanic+bible So if evil people hate socialism...then socialism = good. And blaming all the evil committed by the "communists" led by blood thirsty psychopaths in the 20th century on socialism is pure ignorance. That is like blaming a murder on the murderer's gun...instead of the murderer.

Have a nice day, Andrew Ryan. :)
Post edited December 02, 2014 by monkeydelarge
And he seems to be unwilling to read a little about history:

Again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_%28industrialist%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron

As you can see, even the US is not longer a truly CAPITALISTIC country anymore, otherwise we would be now living in a state of Oligarchy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

Hence anti-trust messeasures where put in place:

US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act

Out of your own history, where I assume you didn't particpiate in during your school time......

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh......

But if something is wrong from the beginning, it is PURE captitalism, it can't work for the whole human race.

And let's not get into the problematic, that companies are not real persons, which is normally a prerequisite for capitalism, or shall we? to be precise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person, better would be the german page, but I assume, you don't speak german, or?

but as corporations are only judical persons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institution , again the German article would be much better, you would see, that your perceived vision of CAPITALISM doesn't even exist AT ALL anymore.

So are we now finished?

No, so you are kind of talking about corporatism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Aren't we?

Q.E.D, me thinks

If you still want to discuss, feel free to do so

EDIT: spelling mistake corrected
Post edited December 02, 2014 by Goodaltgamer
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Goodaltgamer: And he seems to be unwilling to read a little about history:

Again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron_%28industrialist%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robber_baron

As you can see, even the US is not longer a truly CAPITALISTIC country anymore, otherwise we would be now leaving in a state of Oligarchy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

Hence anti-trust messeasures where put in place:

US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act

Out of your own history, where I assume you didn't particpiate in during your school time......

Sorry if I sound a bit harsh......

But if something is wrong from the beginning, it is PURE captitalism, it can't work for the whole human race.

And let's not get into the problematic, that companies are not real persons, which is normally a prerequisite for capitalism, or shall we? to be precise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_person, better would be the german page, but I assume, you don't speak german, or?

but as corporations are only judical persons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institution , again the German article would be much better, you would see, that your percived vision of CAPITALISM doesn't even exist AT ALL anymore.

So are we now finished?

No, so you are kind of talking about corporatism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Aren't we?

Q.E.D, me thinks

If you still want to discuss, feel free to do so
If more people paid closer attention to history, there would be less people bashing socialism... And unfortunately, ignorance is not bliss... People have forgotten how cruel and fucked up the HAVE's were towards the HAVE NOT's...
Post edited December 02, 2014 by monkeydelarge
I didn't know that you could get a butt-hurt hall pass for economics class. Good to know. The amount of commie back patting around here is at heroic levels.
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monkeydelarge: If more people paid closer attention to history, there would be less people bashing socialism... And unfortunately, ignorance is not bliss...
"The word ‘socialism’ finds its root in the Latin sociare, which means to combine or to share. The related, more technical term in Roman and then medieval law was societas. This latter word could mean companionship and fellowship as well as the more legalistic idea of a consensual contract between freemen." WIKI

Actually it goes even further than just this.

The whole story of the human race as we know it, is only because we always had a kind of socialism.

As we are decendents of a hunted species, we were only able to survive as a group. If you don't believe this look at some of the oldest recordings available http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvet_Cave

They already showed the first signs of socialism.

The later false idea of the theory of evolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution on a social model is plain wrong, as the human race by a looooooooong history is a socialistic one.

Only because we used Socialistic models from the beginning could we survive.

If we would really live according to capitalistic and darwinistic views we would be already dead.

Nice example of this, the Spanish flu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

If again not the socialistic model would have taken over, we would be all dead by now.

As all countries took the appropiate steps. SOCIALISM, called healthcare

Now lets even look at religion:

All of the major religions are having socialistic ideas being see above.

J.C. Love your neighbour as yourself, you could even look into the 10 commandments Honour thy father and mother, thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal Thou shalt not bear false witness

Koran, dito

Budism, dito

or let's go further down recorded history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi, again those damned socialistic ideas..........

So wherever we look, we find those damned horrible social ideas everywhere............what a f*ucked up history we have ;)

Do I really need to get into modern times and sorry to say those republicans ;) Not saying that all of them are bad or similar ;) I DO NOT WANT TO START A FLAME WAR, JUST TALKING ABOUT HISTORY AND THE IMPORTANCE OF IT!!!!!

The problem is, (don't get me wrong I don't accuse all americans) that socialism has been correlated with COMMUNISM. which by itself is already wrong, as there was ONLY Stalinism.

Again, 3 completly DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES!!!!!!
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Emob78: I didn't know that you could get a butt-hurt hall pass for economics class. Good to know. The amount of commie back patting around here is at heroic levels.
Sorry have to ask, do you have anything remotly to say, which constitudes a valid reply, except mud-slinging or poo-slinging phrases?

By the way, with this, you just proved the theory of evolution, you are a regession type of the human race.

Can we display you after your death in a museum, it might be worthwhile.

As YOU were not even talking remotly anymore about economic classes anymore. But with the IQ of a pre human sapiens, it seems to be rather hard to understand the differences. I am in the moment trying to adequate your position on the evolutionary tree, could you please give me some more details, please? Maybe we just found the missing link here?

My appologies to all others here!!!!!!!!!! I mean it!!!!!!
Post edited December 02, 2014 by Goodaltgamer
Just giving back to you what this forum has given so much of to me... sentence fragments and smart-ass jokes. Sorry about your sore wrist though. Try fewer words next time. There's plenty of Neanderthals around here like myself, and we always appreciate brevity.
People act because they want to improve their lives. Sometimes they fail, sometimes they succeed. The opposite of action is not inaction, which would cause changes itself, but contentment. Most popular economic theories are built on a contentment-equilibrium status. I imagine this is preferable for a planned economy. "If everything would just stay as it is, we could plan everything" they say. This is not dynamic though and is hostile to both evolution and devolution. Sure, no failure, but also no improvement. It would also be inherently authoritarian.
*Edit: it also implies a zero-growth society, with strict controls on family life

Economic calculation is vitally important for human action. Without markets, there is not a price discovery. There would not be two-way communication with feedback in a distributed network without prices. Without prices, there is not economic calculation and there is not human action. Price changes are often treated with hostility by some people, but there is much information behind a price if it has not been violently changed. Price is a highly efficient form of communication even if we don't know all the information involved. To attack the idea of prices and currency and markets themselves is only successful in shooting the messenger. Then you are ignorant. But hey, ignorance is bliss for some people.

If we lived in Big Rock Candy Mountain, then we wouldn't need markets and prices. We don't live there though and to take away the foundation of civilization that has allowed us to increase usable resources on the belief that we have progressed enough to a point where we don't need the foundation anymore would cause it to quickly crumble.

It is not really a question of whether we make plans or not either. People who don't make plans and critically evaluate their situation will struggle to do anything. The question is who plans for whom? Do we plan for ourselves or do we leave it to a few people to make the plans for everyone to strictly follow in an authoritarian state. There is a knowledge problem for any attempt at central planning. Hayek wrote a great piece about it in The Use of Knowledge in Society.

A queen ant in a colony does not require all ants to give her all the knowledge they know while they wait idly by for her to report back what they should do and then have the soldier ants enforce her orders on the worker ants. It's not possible and would be destructive and fragile if attempted. An individual ant is stupid but an ant colony is a decentralized network that is smart and efficient. Similarly, an economy should not be thought of as a mechanical science, but as a living, changing, adaptable, complex, dynamic, and organic phenomenon.

As for computers, yes central planning would work better with modern technology, but the potential productivity for decentralized/distributed planning and communication is much improved at the same time because of technology and this has proven to be superior. Also, the USSR didn't just fail because of errors on the producers end. There was also no feedback that is necessary for two-way communication in a network. Even if they could have produced products efficiently, without price discovery and markets they just produced a bunch of shit without any knowledge about how much was needed or where to put it or what price should be put on it and so that caused surpluses and shortages in many places. Consumers had no way to take action in a one-way network.

All that said, it is important to have common rules that are easily understood by and apply equally to everyone in a market. It is very important to make sure that all transactions are voluntary as much as possible to ensure mutually beneficial trade. Most people will agree with this when it comes to the buyer, but it is just as important for the seller to have the authority to decline trade offers they believe to be inadequate for his/her goods and services
Post edited December 02, 2014 by KyleKatarn
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KyleKatarn: People act becaus.............r to have the authority to decline trade offers they believe to be inadequate for his/her goods and services
You do bring up some legit points.

BUT

Nowhere did I or other assume that planned economy would stay with "as it is". We even tried to speculate about this point, see my reference for example about the swiss voting model above.

In the moment I WILL concentrate at your main point, as as I understood,

As for computers, yes central planning would work better with modern technology, but the potential productivity for decentralized/distributed planning and communication is much improved at the same time because of technology and this has proven to be superior.

You start blaming the communication in the stalinism model, not the point being. But let's transfer it over to the planned economy, I do agree that this would be a vital part of it. ( I just imagine that's what you meant ;) )

As any economic model, you would need to have communiction between the different layers, that is, what I, and I think others, assumed from the beginning, we thought more of major changes into the system. You can only produce, what is needed other wise, you would overproduce, which is not the idea of a planned economy.

With the prices:

You might be right, IF and I have to say again, IF those prices WOULD reflect reality. But look into the modern world, do they reflect this? Honestly?

Why do we have anti-trust laws in place?

On the extreme side, IF only one company existed producing a NECESSITY, how could the price reflect this?
Both in the positive way, as well as the negative side: What if the company WOULD only produce 50% of what is needed? (here we would be back again to the anti-trust laws)

And being planned being anti hostile and ......, sorry to say:

Did you ever had a look at the forecasts of companies at the NASDQ? They do give exactly this, a forecast, or in other words, planned economy.

Even if you go to your bank (or any other company that is, they will ask you for your forecast, which comes down to planned economy. What is your projection into the future.

Please do me the favour, at least as I understand it, planned economy has nothing to do with Stalinism or similar.

If you are talking about the model being used in the former UDSSR, you are correct, it was a failed model, but it had NOTHING to do with planned economy ;) They were mixing a social model with an economic model......Myself I was only talking about the economic model.

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Emob78: Just giving back to you what this forum has given so much of to me... sentence fragments and smart-ass jokes. Sorry about your sore wrist though. Try fewer words next time. There's plenty of Neanderthals around here like myself, and we always appreciate brevity.
I don't know what you want to say. Your post is missing substance and context. If you don't understand what is being posted, you could always ask, like a human being. Otherwise I stay with my comment:

Maybe you are the missing link

And don't insult the neanderthals, me thinks, they were far more devoloped on the social and intellectual stage than you are.

And by the way: I don't know where you were able to pick up am eloquent word like brevity.

If YOU can't follow, feel free to ask, but do not insult. You are the one poo-slinging, not me.

Q.E.D.
Post edited December 02, 2014 by Goodaltgamer
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Emob78: Just giving back to you what this forum has given so much of to me... sentence fragments and smart-ass jokes. Sorry about your sore wrist though. Try fewer words next time. There's plenty of Neanderthals around here like myself, and we always appreciate brevity.
If it's poo flinging, you want, it is poo flinging, you will get!

"flings poo at Emob78"
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monkeydelarge: If more people paid closer attention to history, there would be less people bashing socialism... And unfortunately, ignorance is not bliss...
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Goodaltgamer: "The word ‘socialism’ finds its root in the Latin sociare, which means to combine or to share. The related, more technical term in Roman and then medieval law was societas. This latter word could mean companionship and fellowship as well as the more legalistic idea of a consensual contract between freemen." WIKI

Actually it goes even further than just this.

The whole story of the human race as we know it, is only because we always had a kind of socialism.

As we are decendents of a hunted species, we were only able to survive as a group. If you don't believe this look at some of the oldest recordings available http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvet_Cave

They already showed the first signs of socialism.

The later false idea of the theory of evolution http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution on a social model is plain wrong, as the human race by a looooooooong history is a socialistic one.

Only because we used Socialistic models from the beginning could we survive.

If we would really live according to capitalistic and darwinistic views we would be already dead.

Nice example of this, the Spanish flu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic

If again not the socialistic model would have taken over, we would be all dead by now.

As all countries took the appropiate steps. SOCIALISM, called healthcare

Now lets even look at religion:

All of the major religions are having socialistic ideas being see above.

J.C. Love your neighbour as yourself, you could even look into the 10 commandments Honour thy father and mother, thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal Thou shalt not bear false witness

Koran, dito

Budism, dito

or let's go further down recorded history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi, again those damned socialistic ideas..........

So wherever we look, we find those damned horrible social ideas everywhere............what a f*ucked up history we have ;)

Do I really need to get into modern times and sorry to say those republicans ;) Not saying that all of them are bad or similar ;) I DO NOT WANT TO START A FLAME WAR, JUST TALKING ABOUT HISTORY AND THE IMPORTANCE OF IT!!!!!

The problem is, (don't get me wrong I don't accuse all americans) that socialism has been correlated with COMMUNISM. which by itself is already wrong, as there was ONLY Stalinism.

Again, 3 completly DIFFERENT IDEOLOGIES!!!!!!
So true. If most of our ancestors had the "I got mine, fuck you" mentality of the people today who are against socialism...then we probably would of died out a long time ago. If a flame war starts, it's because of Emob78.
----> http://www.gog.com/forum/general/a_planned_economy/post64 It's also nice to meet someone who knows the difference between communism and Stalinism. Most people are ignorant when it comes to communism and it's really annoying. Most people don't realize, no true communist country has existed so far. All the people who attack communism are really attacking Stalinism and that is just retarded. And if all they can do is try to start a straw man argument then it's obvious, they are up against someone who is right while they are wrong...
Post edited December 02, 2014 by monkeydelarge
Again, it's not a matter of planning or not planning, but who plans for whom. A planned economy is commonly known as an economy where production, distribution, and prices are controlled by a central government, even if the production is not necessarily owned by the state (which would be socialism).

Do I plan for myself or does a central authority make my plans for me?

A forecast that I can choose to either ignore or put into use for my own subjective plans wouldn't be the same thing as being forced to comply with the groupthink of one harmonious plan put forth by the state. I can decide "Well, the forecast says my decision is risky, but if I'm right it will pay off big time." No one has a crystal ball and tea leaves have been known to be highly ineffective. If a bank asks for my plans, those are my plans that I made myself. Not without considering many factors though, which I did not make up in my head.

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Goodaltgamer: With the prices:

You might be right, IF and I have to say again, IF those prices WOULD reflect reality. But look into the modern world, do they reflect this? Honestly?

Why do we have anti-trust laws in place?

On the extreme side, IF only one company existed producing a NECESSITY, how could the price reflect this?
Both in the positive way, as well as the negative side: What if the company WOULD only produce 50% of what is needed? (here we would be back again to the anti-trust laws)
Sometimes a price is not perfect, but much of the time I find that it's just people thinking that a price "should" be this or we "deserve" that. Should and deserve got nothing to do with market prices. It's just a messenger. Price is based on human action rather than human talk, and quite frankly, I'm glad for that because what people say and what they actually do are often completely different.

That's why I felt it was important to type the last paragraph in my post. I have no problem with an entity having comparative or competitive advantage whether because of scarcity or because of excellence in their work, and for them to reject a trade offer if it is below what they think their goods or services are worth. Voluntary trade works both ways. If this means a high price is needed for them to sell, that is the way the market goes sometimes. Likely, other people will see that price signal and try to find ways to offer comparable services though in a competitive market, thus increasing supply.

If, for example, two farmers are trading and one wants to trade a basket of tomatoes for a few dozen chicken eggs, this is a voluntary and mutually beneficial trade. However, if it is found that the one farmer maliciously caused the other farmer's tomato crop to die so he could manufacture an advantage, than this is not a voluntary and mutually beneficial trade. That is why I believe common rules are necessary to ensure trade is voluntary and mutually beneficial. If the crop died naturally or because of the owner's mismanagement, then it's a tough break and do what you can and move one. Some people are clever though with hiding sabotage as an act of God.

Take the broken window fallacy. Theft is a common rule that everyone can understand and knows they should not do. Bastiat posits that if a window maker secretly hired a mischievous boy to throw rocks through shop owners windows so that he could get more business, this would be on the same level of theft. I agree with that assessment and that is why common rules (but not authoritarianism) are still necessary in a free market.

As for the necessity, I hold to the subjective theory of value and marginal utility. I believe there is no proper price other than what a good trades for in a voluntary market. What if an owner of a stand of timber properly manages his timber so that he is set up to harvest trees for an indefinite amount of time. He thins out weed trees and manages the desirable trees that will grow straight and tall for lumber harvest every few years. Now someone tells him, "But we NEED more wood! You've only harvested 20% of your timber and you must cut more of your trees down and sell them at "x" price!" He knows that he cannot do this because if he does cut trees that are not at an optimal stage to be cut, it will cut his future out. The trees that will grow back in the open space will be short, squatty, undesirable trees and it will be after his lifetime and much TSI work before the timber stand will return to a optimal state for long-term profitability. This is really a case of a "tragedy of the commons".and I obviously support private management of resources.

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Goodaltgamer: f you are talking about the model being used in the former UDSSR, you are correct, it was a failed model, but it had NOTHING to do with planned economy
Horseshit. Maybe it's not the only way to have a planned economy, but is was most definitely a planned economy on a grand scale, one of the biggest examples of a planned economy. The OP brought it up anyway, and I just gave my two cents on it.