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Wishbone: Let me be more specific as to why I don't like it. You say the game is not about the combat at all. I say that a game which has enemies coming at you constantly, from directions you can't see very well in, has got to be about combat. I might be able to survive taking lots of hits from enemies, but I won't like it. And given that, I feel much too restricted in my ability to deal with the hordes of enemies coming at me.
I could live with the controls if the game had been less centered about enemies, and I could live with the enemies if the controls had been less restrictive, but not both.

I see where you're coming from. The point is, however, that much depends on the player's approach. If one keeps on fighting enemies, he only allows other enemies to spawn and get closer, and so the player finds himself in a spiral; if, instead, one focuses on the map, takes quick (but not quicker than necessary) decisions, moves and avoids enemies as much as possible, things change drastically. The presence of enemies is an element that pressures the player to go on, to never stop, to understand what to do as quickly as possible and adds a special thrill to the quest; but if the player lets enemies grab his attention, then he has already failed. In short, it's not the presence of enemies per se that automatically makes the game a shooter. F.ex., a guy, in the past, told me he was overwhelmed by enemies to the point that he found it difficult to finish the first phase of the mission "tougher and tougher": well, that phase can indeed be finished in 27 seconds without shooting even once! The following phase, also, despite being much more complicated, still can be completed without shooting much - and, if one is really good, without shooting at all, except in the case of the end-of-phase boss. Actually, all missions can - and should - be completed without shooting much. That's the key.
Finally, you can be sure I have set each and every parameter carefully so that what I say above isn't just an abstract design discussion ;)
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Wishbone: Still, all that means in the end is that I'm not part of your target demographic. Plenty of other people seem to like it, so don't worry about it :-)

As I said, it's completely OK with me if one isn't part of my "target demographic"; what saddens me is when that happens because the gamer hasn't (really) understood the game - admittedly, BOH isn't an easy game to appreciate: in fact, one can really get a good idea of it only after playing thoroughly at least all the tutorial missions, the "an easy job" mission and the first 3 phases of the "tougher and tougher" mission (it's a direct consequence of its obscure, mazey, puzzling nature).
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lowyhong: But I really like the randomized style of the game, very refreshing.

Are you referring to the fact that the themes change, perhaps? If so, just FYI, you can control how that happens. The default setting is that the theme cycles to the next one every time one returns to the menu after a game. But one can set that to happen only when the game is started, or whether the theme should be chosen randomly. Of course, one can also choose a specific theme (see the OPTIONS->THEME menu).
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Toast_burner: If I buy the physical copy do I get the digital copy as well?

Yes, you immediately receive the download link so that you can play the game before the package even arrives (the package ships within a working day).
Post edited August 22, 2010 by saimo
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saimo: admittedly, BOH isn't an easy game to appreciate: in fact, one can really get a good idea of it only after playing thoroughly at least all the tutorial missions, the "an easy job" mission and the first 3 phases of the "tougher and tougher" mission (it's a direct consequence of its obscure, mazey, puzzling nature).

A bit of advice, then. Why make your game deliberately difficult to appreciate? It seems to me that, regardless of what your primary goal for the game is, that is a bad move.
I've played only the first three tutorial missions, and I'm already turned off. Why make the tutorial missions not representative of the game as a whole?
I don't need a tutorial mission where I have to go into a room, pick up a piece of equipment, and then be told what it is, and then do it again, and again, and again. I just need a single screen with the various types of equipment listed. It's a waste of time trying to explain every single item in the game in a single level. It's boring, and it's a turn-off. If I need to play the "Tougher and tougher" mission in order to appreciate the game, don't make me play through needless tutorial missions beforehand, when they don't impart any information that couldn't have been given through a simple list shown before I start to play. That just raises the risk of my quitting the game and deciding I don't like it.
Also, a small design suggestion: As it is now, the message buttons require me to stand directly in front of them in order to see the text. With enemies bearing down on me, I don't really want to stand still, reading a bunch of text and not being able to move because then the text will disappear. Why not make it a trigger? When you trigger the message button, the text shows for 10 seconds or so, leaving you free to move in the mean time. Then I wouldn't feel that the game was punishing me for doing what it instructed me to do.
That said, keep up the good work. More people should be trying to make games that they themselves would love to play. They can do things that no AAA title would ever dream of risking, simply because they are doing it for themselves, for fun.
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Wishbone: A bit of advice, then. Why make your game deliberately difficult to appreciate? It seems to me that, regardless of what your primary goal for the game is, that is a bad move.

You see, it's not a decision to make it hard to appreciate: it's just instrinsical to the game's nature. You can be sure I did my best to allow who tries the demo to get in the game as comfortably as possible. But it's difficult (more below).
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Wishbone: I've played only the first three tutorial missions, and I'm already turned off. Why make the tutorial missions not representative of the game as a whole?
I don't need a tutorial mission where I have to go into a room, pick up a piece of equipment, and then be told what it is, and then do it again, and again, and again. I just need a single screen with the various types of equipment listed. It's a waste of time trying to explain every single item in the game in a single level. It's boring, and it's a turn-off. If I need to play the "Tougher and tougher" mission in order to appreciate the game, don't make me play through needless tutorial missions beforehand, when they don't impart any information that couldn't have been given through a simple list shown before I start to play. That just raises the risk of my quitting the game and deciding I don't like it.

I understand that very well. And, in fact, for a long time the demo had no tutorial missions. But then, people told me they didn't understand a thing, that they where overwhelmed by so many elements. Telling people everything was detailed in the manual was of no help (we're at the point that suggesting such a thing almost seems scandalous, when, instead, the problem is in laziness). So, I decided to add the tutorial levels. Perfectly aware of the risk you are mentioning, I did the following:
* the very first tutorial mission is indeed half-way between a pure tutorial (like the following ones) and an actual mission - of course, I made sure its difficulty is next to zero;
* I explained in the very first lines of the README what the included missions intend to show - unfortunately, not many read those documents :/
Also, missions can be chosen freely, so one isn't strictly forced to try all the tutorials, first.
But I'm afraid there is no perfect solution.
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Wishbone: Also, a small design suggestion: As it is now, the message buttons require me to stand directly in front of them in order to see the text. With enemies bearing down on me, I don't really want to stand still, reading a bunch of text and not being able to move because then the text will disappear. Why not make it a trigger? When you trigger the message button, the text shows for 10 seconds or so, leaving you free to move in the mean time. Then I wouldn't feel that the game was punishing me for doing what it instructed me to do.

The message points intentionally work that way: imagine yourself in that precise situation and you can immediately see you wouldn't be able to both read and fight (or perform any other action) at the same time. Indeed, this has been exploited in some missions to confront the player with a skill challenge - f.ex., in some places the floor where the player has to stand bears the weight only for a limited amount of time; in other places the player has only a limited time to read the message before a passage closes forever; and so on. The message points are not meant to be just help/information points.
In the tutorials, this aspect has been counter-balanced by the huge amount of recharges scattered everywhere (that's why, one of the very first message points in the first tutorial says: "You will be continuously attacked by enemies, but do not be too worried about them. The golden rule is: proceed with the exploration as quickly as possible and eliminate enemies only if you really need to.").
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Wishbone: That said, keep up the good work. More people should be trying to make games that they themselves would love to play. They can do things that no AAA title would ever dream of risking, simply because they are doing it for themselves, for fun.

Yeah, exactly.
Post edited August 22, 2010 by saimo
I just realized I forgot to give some additional information about the following...
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Eclipse: It's also up on Impulse for the ones who likes that digital distribution service.

Correct, but I have to add that Impulse hasn't updated the game to the latest version yet (I provided them with all the necessary stuff upon the release of update13, so I guess it's only a matter of days).
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Eclipse: Plus, you can get it boxed at the same price of the digital version if you exclude VAT :-)

I have to clarify that VAT application doesn't depend on the kind of product: VAT applies only if the customer resides in the VAT area (which mostly coincides with the EU); customers outside of it do not pay any tax on the product, whether physical or not.
Eclipse, many thanks for poiting those aspects out, though :)
Post edited August 24, 2010 by saimo
Hey Saimo glad to see you here!
I have to agree, BOH is quite hard to "understand" at first, but it's not a fault, it's possibly his best feature. A gameplay like the one in BOH wouldn't even exist if it wasn't made that way, it's a subtle balance.
At first, even if i was ok with the controls, I couldn't understand why Saimo decided to implement one-way passages that closes when you walk past them and you can't reopen, at first I got stuck many times in rooms or small portions of the level and I thought it was a sort of crazy design decision! Let the player get stuck in a room so he needs to restart the entire level? It's nonsense!
Then I played the same level again, I spotted that he used a different tile for those one-way\one-time passages, so this time I knew if walking a certain door without having explored all the zone would probably end up with me stuck in a room or something. So I started to play the game as it was a speed-run through the dungeon, exploring all the sectors I could before stepping over one of those passages, then moving on.
Enemies became only a minor annoyance, still deadly, but often avoidable. I was faster and smarter than them, and I always had a goal.
Maybe the few first missions in the complete game are easier to swallow if compared to Tougher and Tougher, they'll let the player experience some easy win without feeling like being in a tutorial level...
Post edited August 23, 2010 by Eclipse
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saimo: Yes, you immediately receive the download link so that you can play the game before the package even arrives (the package ships within a working day).

do you ship to APO/FPO's? if not ill just buy the digi version and live without the box ;)
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Eclipse: Hey Saimo glad to see you here!

Thanks! You know it's a pleasure for me to talk about BOH ;)
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Eclipse: Maybe the few first missions in the complete game are easier to swallow if compared to Tougher and Tougher, they'll let the player experience some easy win without feeling like being in a tutorial level...

Yes, although I tried to give the player some satisfaction even in the demo with the mission "an easy job" and also with "tougher and tougher" itself, thanks to its per-phase increasing difficulty )i.e. starts very easy, ends very hard) - I know you know this, I just wanted to clarify for the other readers here.
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akwater: do you ship to APO/FPO's? if not ill just buy the digi version and live without the box ;)

Well, I use the national postal service, so I think there should be no problem - but maybe you know of some particular problem I'm not aware of? I guess shipping to a military post office is no different than shipping to any other kind of address.
Post edited August 24, 2010 by saimo
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saimo: Well, I use the national postal service, so I think there should be no problem - but maybe you know of some particular problem I'm not aware of? I guess shipping to a military post office is no different than shipping to any other kind of address.

some games... ie mw2, and that one about Falajuh (cant spell) would not ship here also cell phones and hard drives sometimes wont ship either not sure if it is a blanket policy or if it was merely the seller...
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akwater: some games... ie mw2, and that one about Falajuh (cant spell) would not ship here also cell phones and hard drives sometimes wont ship either not sure if it is a blanket policy or if it was merely the seller...

I see. Well, personally I have no qualm with shipping to any destination in the world and the postal service I use also officially states that Iraq is a reachable destination (see "ZONA 2 -> ALTRI PAESI DELL'ASIA" = "ZONE 2 -> OTHER COUNTRIES IN ASIA" here). Who buys the box receives a tracking code, so theorethically, you should be able to follow the package - I say "theorethically" because the Italian postal service keeps track of it only until it leaves Italy: from that point on, it should be possible to check the status by passing the very same code to the postal service in the destination country.
Post edited August 24, 2010 by saimo
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saimo: - I say "theorethically" because the Italian postal service keeps track of it only until it leaves Italy: from that point on, it should be possible to check the status by passing the very same code to the postal service in the destination country.

Yep APO system tracks till it hits the main hub after that it becomes untraceable, After it hits Baghdad all i know is ill have a few days,
Thanks, gonna have to snag a copy after work.
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akwater: Yep APO system tracks till it hits the main hub after that it becomes untraceable, After it hits Baghdad all i know is ill have a few days,

Ah, fine then.
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akwater: Thanks, gonna have to snag a copy after work.

Thanks a lot, your tangible interest is much appreciated :)
I hope you'll have lots of fun!
Post edited August 24, 2010 by saimo
HI all,

I just wanted to tell you that today is BOH's 3rd birthday and that I decided to celebrate it by releasing the 15th and final update ;)