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General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 24, 2014
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kalirion: Oh, I believe in evolution and not God, so I guess I'll go rape some girls, right? So the only reason you don't go on a raping spree is because God says it's bad. Got it.

No, seriously, what are you talking about? I have morality because I have a brain that understands the concept. Not because of some book. Not because of a science class.

Why do you need to externalize morality to some higher power, whether to God or to evolution? Take some responsibility for yourself.
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ThoRn: Sure. I'll bite. God says it's bad and therefore I won't rape. Take away civilization and all the modern day conveniences and I'm not sure what I'd be capable of and neither can you know for sure. It's easy to sit and say you'd never rape or murder. You've been tainted by this evil religion you speak of after all. Let's take away religion and see just how savage this world gets. Ever seen a zombie flick? When the shit hits the fan and life is like that again, you will rape, kill, and pillage to survive.
http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-and-must-agree-on.html

I think this is the point where you should really read this out.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: I read an article awhile ago that stated that something like 1/3 of Asian people share common genes linked to Genghis Khan. If evolution is the right way to go then theoretically isn't rape as well? I mean, in the evolutionary scheme of things and all, shouldn't males be trying to impregnate all the females they can to spread their genes far and wide? Of course I'm not advocating this because I'm religious but it almost sounds like evolutionary minded people are making that the case. I mean who wins in the end? The man who has a few kids or no kids and his bloodline dies off completely or the rapist who's sired kids on every continent to the place that almost every single person in the world is related to him in some way and has to claim he was so great because they wouldn't be alive without his contribution to evolution.
Evolution isn't "the right way to go". It's simply an aspect of the natural world which has nothing to do with morality and how we as humans should behave. It is a blind natural process that doesn't know any purpose, direction or values. Evolution doesn't care whether we like it or whether we believe in it. Understanding the reality of evolution doesn't mean that one has to approve of the way it works. Personally, I think that evolution is a cold, brutal, terrifying process and I'm glad that we were able to stop natural selection for humans, for the most part. Nevertheless, evolution is simply a feature of reality without which we wouldn't be here and I have to accept that.
Posted January 24, 2014
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kalirion: Oh, I believe in evolution and not God, so I guess I'll go rape some girls, right? So the only reason you don't go on a raping spree is because God says it's bad. Got it.

No, seriously, what are you talking about? I have morality because I have a brain that understands the concept. Not because of some book. Not because of a science class.

Why do you need to externalize morality to some higher power, whether to God or to evolution? Take some responsibility for yourself.
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ThoRn: Sure. I'll bite. God says it's bad and therefore I won't rape. Take away civilization and all the modern day conveniences and I'm not sure what I'd be capable of and neither can you know for sure. It's easy to sit and say you'd never rape or murder. You've been tainted by this evil religion you speak of after all. Let's take away religion and see just how savage this world gets. Ever seen a zombie flick? When the shit hits the fan and life is like that again, you will rape, kill, and pillage to survive.
Religion has nothing to do with civilization. Take away religion, and society will be the better for it, unless there is a substantive number of psychopaths like you who only avoid raping and murdering because you are "God fearing".
Post edited January 24, 2014 by kalirion
Posted January 24, 2014
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kalirion: Religion has nothing to do with civilization. Take away religion, and society will be the better for it, unless there is a substantive number of psychopaths like you who only avoid raping and murdering because you are "God fearing".
I wouldn't say that. It's actually the opposite it seems, since every civilization has developed some kind of religion.

I also read a study (don't no where anymore, I'm sorry) that said that religion is beneficial for people, letting them live longer. I guess that's the least you can get when believing there's someone out there, (maybe) watching over you.

I myself am an agnostic and I do think that religion was used (if not made?) to manipulate people, but whatever happened, I cannot (or don't want) to say with certainty that there isn't anything like a God, be it an entity, presence, whatever.

And I'd also prefer if people on both sides of the spectrum wouldn't be so blinded to opinions from the other side (and so hateful, sometimes).
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: Sure. I'll bite. God says it's bad and therefore I won't rape. Take away civilization and all the modern day conveniences and I'm not sure what I'd be capable of and neither can you know for sure. It's easy to sit and say you'd never rape or murder. You've been tainted by this evil religion you speak of after all. Let's take away religion and see just how savage this world gets. Ever seen a zombie flick? When the shit hits the fan and life is like that again, you will rape, kill, and pillage to survive.
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kalirion: Religion has nothing to do with civilization. Take away religion, and society will be the better for it, unless there is a substantive number of psychopaths like you who only avoid raping and murdering because you are "God fearing".
The only thing that would stop me from wanting this is the sick shit he'd do to his family and neighbours for us to find out. On the other hand he may be doing that already and simply considering it his godly duty.
Posted January 24, 2014
low rated
I read an interesting book awhile back. Wish I could remember the name of it but my memory kinda sucks. The book wasn't about rape or anything. It was about WWII and there was an interesting story about a Russian solider who, during the invasion of Berlin, towards the end of the war, found a German woman hiding out in the rubble of a bombed out building and she was shaking and very frightened of him as he approached her. When she saw him she got up to attack him at he's got close. He then easily over-powered her and started to kiss her and then he took her to the ground and raped her. When he was finished he left her there and came back after being gone for a short while. The woman was weak and scared when he returned and she didn't resist the Russian soldier a second time. But this time he didn't rape her. He had found some medical supplies and nursed her back to health and gave her some chocolates he had found. He even brought her a single red rose he'd found in a bombed out flower shop in the city. They couldn't understand each other that well. Then some more Russian soldiers came in and tried to rape the woman. The Russian soldier killed them all and fled the city with the woman. After the war they ended up getting married and had children together.

My point - War is as close to our roots as a primitive savage species as it gets. It shows what would happen if an apocalypse were to ever happen. Men would rape women and then protect them from other men. Women would look for the most alpha male with the protective abilities as she could to protect her from being savagely raped, offering herself to one man for his protection instead. I'm sure the Russian solider was against rape most of his life. But after many years of living in constant fear and longing for female companionship and desperate for sexual release I'm sure he lost control of his mortality and gave into the beast within himself. I don't believe males want to rape. I believe certain social and economical and even political obstructions and failures can cause a male to lose his self-control and act out savagely. This is no way condones rape but explains how and why it can happen. I don't believe the feminist rhetoric that rape is about power. Maybe in some cases but not all. It's too complex an issue to blame it all on one reason. But it most certainly is in the genes of all species on this planet, including our own.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: I read an interesting book awhile back. [snip]
And what does that have to do with Religion? Or do you believe that only the "godless commies" ever rape people? But then why did the Russian soldier suddenly become a good guy? Did he discover God shortly after raping the woman? Or are you just saying the woman became his possession and he was only protecting her for that reason?

Basically, what does that story have to do with anything in this topic?
Post edited January 24, 2014 by kalirion
Posted January 24, 2014
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Reever: I also read a study (don't no where anymore, I'm sorry) that said that religion is beneficial for people, letting them live longer. I guess that's the least you can get when believing there's someone out there, (maybe) watching over you.
That would be utterly personal.

Deeply religious person may recover from hard times because he/she will perhaps have support from community, has the possibility to think stuff like "its God's plan" or whatever and sort of accept whatever comes etc..

But really, its nothing magical. The person does not live longer because God gives him or her superhuman powers - rather the person gets support from extended social network and may have various guidelines to rely on.

However, one might have these same supports from hobby, work community, neighbours and so on.

But yes, i do agree that religions may have beneficial effect on people in this sense - but ofcourse there are many flipsides as well. Then again, religions are, or atleast should be rather personal matters in the first place, so everyone should use their own heads and hearts instead of following any group or say-so person to find out if they are any good or not.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: I don't believe males want to rape. I believe certain social and economical and even political obstructions and failures can cause a male to lose his self-control and act out savagely. This is no way condones rape but explains how and why it can happen.
I hope you're not trying to justify it?
Posted January 24, 2014
I go to nap, wake up to some of thorn's most ignorant ramblings.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: My point - War is as close to our roots as a primitive savage species as it gets.
please elaborate.
Posted January 24, 2014
low rated
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kalirion: Religion has nothing to do with civilization. Take away religion, and society will be the better for it, unless there is a substantive number of psychopaths like you who only avoid raping and murdering because you are "God fearing".
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Cormoran: The only thing that would stop me from wanting this is the sick shit he'd do to his family and neighbours for us to find out. On the other hand he may be doing that already and simply considering it his godly duty.
I have to wonder about some of you atheists myself. I certainly don't believe a true Christian goes around raping and murdering anyone. But an atheist wolf dressed in Christian sheep wool might. How can you have morality without religion? Where does your morality come from? And furthermore how come your morality is so much like mine? We both agree that rape and murder is wrong. But how can that be? I choose not to rape because it's sin and I've got enough self-control to not give into that sin. I do lust however but not so much that's I'd be willing to rape and hurt a woman over it. I prefer it when the woman consents as that makes me feel loved and desired in return. I can't say I'd get any thrill out of raping a woman. Then again, I've never tried it and don't plan on it. If the world were to suddenly fall apart and become completely chaotic I don't know what I'd do or be capable of? I'd still have my religious morals at first but I'm sure brutality of such a savage environment can take a toll on anyone's views in life and force them to change. The old military saying is, "Adapt, improvise, and overcome".

Ever watch "The Walking Dead"? I think that show does a good job of showing how people can change radically in their views on certain issues and before long people learn real quick that it's kill or be killed. Rape or be raped. Eat or starve. Shelter or freeze. Is that the type of world I want? Hell no. I'm comfy with modern day living and all the willing women in short skirts that WANT sex for cheap. I do admit feminism HAS given men some nice benefits.
Posted January 24, 2014
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Cormoran: The only thing that would stop me from wanting this is the sick shit he'd do to his family and neighbours for us to find out. On the other hand he may be doing that already and simply considering it his godly duty.
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ThoRn: snip
No, athiest posing as christians wouldn't, we don't need to do anything more to make your religion look foolish and you owe us an apology.
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: The topic was evolution. Not morality. I do not condone rape. But if we're going to argue in favor of evolution and not religious morality then it does sound a lot like evolutionary minds are advocating that rape would be the way to go. After all, why let your bloodline die off? You have no morality if you're into evolution because evolution doesn't require morality.
Dude, it is a scientific theory that explains why rape exists, not a moral compass. It also explains many other behaviours, like love or racism, that does not mean an atheist or the catholic church (who accepts evolution now) is into rape, racism or love.

But if the bible is your moral compass, and not the golden rule, shouldn't you be into rape, murdering whole tribes and killing your brother if some magic being tells you to?
Post edited January 24, 2014 by jamotide
Posted January 24, 2014
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ThoRn: War is as close to our roots as a primitive savage species as it gets.
You should also make a distinction between "society" and "religion" (not to mention "civilisation" because that word means nothing). Desocialised contexts are brutal. All societies regulate behaviours through norms and values. These norms and values, as well as the whole collective representations of the world that are shared in that sociaty, are generally communicated and reaffirmed through (amongst other things) myths and cautionary tales. These enduring-yet-evolving tales and myths form a mythology. When they are solidified by rituals, by social functions dedicated to them and upheld by some individuals, you can talk of a religion (though it's a very blurry and reductive term, improperly used to name many different systems). It's just one way of collectively expressing, teaching, and displaying, local norms and values.

But you can't reduce societies to it, especially as societies have other normative systems (secular education, law, cautionary tales that don't involve any "belief" in them having actually taken place, etc). Religion is not central. You can have societies without religion, that keep their cohesion through other types of discourses and rituals. The point is :

When society breaks down, yeah, you can expect a dangerous mess. But religion is not society. It is a distinct element. All social rules of behaviour are not religious in nature, sometimes none are. If you discuss behaviours outside of society, it is a whole other subject.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
(2370 posts)