Posted January 24, 2014
This 'eye of a needle' is not literal. Jesus meant a narrow rock formation, not a real needle. It's hard to pass a camel through it, but not impossible.
kalirion
Future HFIL King
Registered: Apr 2009
From United States
This 'eye of a needle' is not literal. Jesus meant a narrow rock formation, not a real needle. It's hard to pass a camel through it, but not impossible.
Novotnus
Gray Zombie Cat
Registered: Dec 2009
From Poland
Posted January 24, 2014
My old religion class teacher back at school :)
Here are some different non-literal interpretations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle#Christianity
It was a catholic teacher, and catholic priests around here aren't known for their living in poverty... so maybe she just picked interpretation that fits her best :)
Here are some different non-literal interpretations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle#Christianity
It was a catholic teacher, and catholic priests around here aren't known for their living in poverty... so maybe she just picked interpretation that fits her best :)
Post edited January 24, 2014 by Novotnus
Tallima
TreasureHunting!
Registered: Apr 2010
From United States
Posted January 24, 2014
Ahhh, what the heck. I'll have a little fun.
Premeditated Murderer: David, Saul/Paul
Child Molester: St. Augustine
Eye of the Needle items: It's hyperbole no matter what the eye of the needle might mean. The response to the eye of the needle is that it's impossible, but not for God. "And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.""
As for who is a "True Christian," only God knows. But 1 John (the whole book) talks about it. Essentially, someone who loves the true* God and asks to be forgiven. (there's more to it, debated over the ages -- read 1 John and the whole Bible to get a good feel of it, of course)
(*note: The "true" God is argued over and over over the centuries, but if there is a true God, then there is one.)
Can a child molester be a Christian? Yes. A murderer? Yes.
There is one sin that is not forgivable. It is often misrepresented as swearing or saying something naughty. The sin is believing God to be evil and evil as good. It's not so much that it's unforgivable (in my opinion -- this is admittedly a some interpretation and not 100% spelled out) as it is that a person will not be capable of forgiveness. They have decided to flip-flop good and evil. They bask in evil, so good won't be any good for them.
Turning the other cheek is a great thing. So is not living by the sword. But they are not requirements. Being rich can be difficult, but not an impossible hurdle. People sin. And sometimes people are led to do the right thing which does not incorporate "turn the other cheek" or "not living by the sword" (Joshua's army and flipping over tables come to mind immediately).
The Bible is not a rule book or a magic book. It's a book that has led billions to help find a living God who is more rational and alive than those who do not know him give him credit for.
I hope that helps with some understanding.
P.S. If I'm coming off arrogant, rude or crude, please allow my apologies. I'm typing in haste so I can get to meeting. :D Love you all!
Premeditated Murderer: David, Saul/Paul
Child Molester: St. Augustine
Eye of the Needle items: It's hyperbole no matter what the eye of the needle might mean. The response to the eye of the needle is that it's impossible, but not for God. "And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.""
As for who is a "True Christian," only God knows. But 1 John (the whole book) talks about it. Essentially, someone who loves the true* God and asks to be forgiven. (there's more to it, debated over the ages -- read 1 John and the whole Bible to get a good feel of it, of course)
(*note: The "true" God is argued over and over over the centuries, but if there is a true God, then there is one.)
Can a child molester be a Christian? Yes. A murderer? Yes.
There is one sin that is not forgivable. It is often misrepresented as swearing or saying something naughty. The sin is believing God to be evil and evil as good. It's not so much that it's unforgivable (in my opinion -- this is admittedly a some interpretation and not 100% spelled out) as it is that a person will not be capable of forgiveness. They have decided to flip-flop good and evil. They bask in evil, so good won't be any good for them.
Turning the other cheek is a great thing. So is not living by the sword. But they are not requirements. Being rich can be difficult, but not an impossible hurdle. People sin. And sometimes people are led to do the right thing which does not incorporate "turn the other cheek" or "not living by the sword" (Joshua's army and flipping over tables come to mind immediately).
The Bible is not a rule book or a magic book. It's a book that has led billions to help find a living God who is more rational and alive than those who do not know him give him credit for.
I hope that helps with some understanding.
P.S. If I'm coming off arrogant, rude or crude, please allow my apologies. I'm typing in haste so I can get to meeting. :D Love you all!
Post edited January 24, 2014 by Tallima
kalirion
Future HFIL King
Registered: Apr 2009
From United States
Posted January 24, 2014
^Nah, too complicated.
I personally think "The Other Cheek" was what Jesus named his crossbow.
I personally think "The Other Cheek" was what Jesus named his crossbow.
Bad Hair Day
Find me in STEAM OT
Registered: Dec 2012
From Other
Posted January 24, 2014
This 'eye of a needle' is not literal. Jesus meant a narrow rock formation, not a real needle. It's hard to pass a camel through it, but not impossible.
BTW I saw a thing (and yes this is going to get some crap thrown at me) on NatGeo the other day about the increasing evidence that during the approximate time of Moses' escape from Egypt the Red Sea was undergoing a severe drop in water level and thus made several parts of it crossable by foot. Then again I still prefer the Mel Brooks' version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2SUJ_l69GY
Telika
Registered: Apr 2012
From Switzerland
Posted January 24, 2014
Yeah, I assumed so (my question was mostly rhetorical).
My point is that, then, if you trust God's fairness and sense of justice, you shouldn't feel like "playing russian roulette" when it comes to grasping modern biology. There is no afterdeath stake here, nor is there in believing or not, because it would be unfair to have such things matter more (or as much as) people's atual behaviour to each others, and people's actual evil - such as deliberate harming of others, indifference to suffering (rationalised or not), and all these actual very real consequence on inhumanity, selfishness, selective lack of empathy...
In my opinion, the least undeserving of a paradise in heavens are the ones who fight for a paradise on earth - and a paradise for all, as, in general, the least deserving of any paradise are the ones who want to keep it the most exclusive.
That being said, I am not blessed by the belief in an afterlife, so I have more pragmatic reasons to fight for us all to spend (and to allow each others to spend) an okay time on earth... :-/
My point is that, then, if you trust God's fairness and sense of justice, you shouldn't feel like "playing russian roulette" when it comes to grasping modern biology. There is no afterdeath stake here, nor is there in believing or not, because it would be unfair to have such things matter more (or as much as) people's atual behaviour to each others, and people's actual evil - such as deliberate harming of others, indifference to suffering (rationalised or not), and all these actual very real consequence on inhumanity, selfishness, selective lack of empathy...
In my opinion, the least undeserving of a paradise in heavens are the ones who fight for a paradise on earth - and a paradise for all, as, in general, the least deserving of any paradise are the ones who want to keep it the most exclusive.
That being said, I am not blessed by the belief in an afterlife, so I have more pragmatic reasons to fight for us all to spend (and to allow each others to spend) an okay time on earth... :-/
kalirion
Future HFIL King
Registered: Apr 2009
From United States
Posted January 24, 2014
My point is that, then, if you trust God's fairness and sense of justice, you shouldn't feel like "playing russian roulette" when it comes to grasping modern biology. There is no afterdeath stake here, nor is there in believing or not, because it would be unfair to have such things matter more (or as much as) people's atual behaviour to each others, and people's actual evil - such as deliberate harming of others, indifference to suffering (rationalised or not), and all these actual very real consequence on inhumanity, selfishness, selective lack of empathy...
In my opinion, the least undeserving of a paradise in heavens are the ones who fight for a paradise on earth - and a paradise for all, as, in general, the least deserving of any paradise are the ones who want to keep it the most exclusive.
That being said, I am not blessed by the belief in an afterlife, so I have more pragmatic reasons to fight for us all to spend (and to allow each others to spend) an okay time on earth... :-/
QC
X-Mas Triforce!!
Registered: Jun 2010
From United States
Telika
Registered: Apr 2012
From Switzerland
Posted January 24, 2014
So, people filter all that accordingly to their own morals (aka, cultural values). And if a line seems to imply that God demands injustice (that is, something that clashes too much with current social values), the reaction is generally not "oh that must be okay then", but "ah, but that must have been misread or misinterpreted, because God is Good".
Once again, the only difference between secular moral debates and religious moral debate is the grammar. "This is moral, this is immoral, because this or that", versus "God meant this, God meant not this, because this or that".
And these questions are as difficult, delicate, and vulnerable to arbitrary contemporary cultural values in both grammars.
Lionel212008
Hedonistic pig
Registered: Jan 2011
From Other
Posted January 24, 2014
(Let's go by creationist reasoning for a second)
Well, if we were to go by actions alone then the vengeful old testament god has committed genocide innumerable times. In contrast, how many people is satan known to have killed?...zero.
Okay, let's imagine for some asinine, inconceivable reason there were a god then take a good friggin' look at the world around you. If art is a reflection of the artist then this world too is a reflection of its creator. The world is filled with greed, poverty, suffering and injustice. Consider for a moment the notion that this god you believe in is more likely to be 'evil' than good. I recall that there was a scripture somewhere which the councial of nicea were nice enough to ban. It mentioned that 'satan' was the anger of God. That would make more sense now, wouldn't it?... why the heck would an omnipotent, all powerful god not be able to stop or prevent evil or the countless atrocities that happen everyday then?"
This is totally dismissing the fact that the idea of god isn't a tenable one. It is but a fanciful pre-concieved notion put forth by zealots who fail to reconcile with precarious nature of life and existence.Also, the notion of morality is an entirely human concept. In the scheme of things we are far less relevant than that of specs of dust.
In essence, people lead their lives believing what they think is right and true. That is what they call their reality. However that what is right and true are merely vague concepts or ideas if you will. Thus, the reality that you are live in might very well turn out to be an illusion.
In the words of the Joker ""Ladies and Gentlemen! You've read about it in the papers! Now witness, before your very eyes, that most rare and tragic of nature's mistakes! I give you: the average man. Physically unremarkable, it instead possesses a deformed set of values. Notice the hideously bloated sense of humanity's importance. Also note the club-footed social conscience and the withered optimism. It's certainly not for the squeamish, is it? Most repulsive of all, are its frail and useless notions of order and sanity. If too much weight is placed upon them... they snap. How does it live, I hear you ask? How does this poor pathetic specimen survive in today's harsh and irrational environment? I'm afraid the sad answer is, "Not very well." Faced with the inescapable fact that human existence is mad, random, and pointless, one in eight of them crack up and go stark slavering buggo! Who can blame them? In a world as psychotic as this... any other response would be crazy!"
Well, if we were to go by actions alone then the vengeful old testament god has committed genocide innumerable times. In contrast, how many people is satan known to have killed?...zero.
Okay, let's imagine for some asinine, inconceivable reason there were a god then take a good friggin' look at the world around you. If art is a reflection of the artist then this world too is a reflection of its creator. The world is filled with greed, poverty, suffering and injustice. Consider for a moment the notion that this god you believe in is more likely to be 'evil' than good. I recall that there was a scripture somewhere which the councial of nicea were nice enough to ban. It mentioned that 'satan' was the anger of God. That would make more sense now, wouldn't it?... why the heck would an omnipotent, all powerful god not be able to stop or prevent evil or the countless atrocities that happen everyday then?"
This is totally dismissing the fact that the idea of god isn't a tenable one. It is but a fanciful pre-concieved notion put forth by zealots who fail to reconcile with precarious nature of life and existence.Also, the notion of morality is an entirely human concept. In the scheme of things we are far less relevant than that of specs of dust.
In essence, people lead their lives believing what they think is right and true. That is what they call their reality. However that what is right and true are merely vague concepts or ideas if you will. Thus, the reality that you are live in might very well turn out to be an illusion.
In the words of the Joker ""Ladies and Gentlemen! You've read about it in the papers! Now witness, before your very eyes, that most rare and tragic of nature's mistakes! I give you: the average man. Physically unremarkable, it instead possesses a deformed set of values. Notice the hideously bloated sense of humanity's importance. Also note the club-footed social conscience and the withered optimism. It's certainly not for the squeamish, is it? Most repulsive of all, are its frail and useless notions of order and sanity. If too much weight is placed upon them... they snap. How does it live, I hear you ask? How does this poor pathetic specimen survive in today's harsh and irrational environment? I'm afraid the sad answer is, "Not very well." Faced with the inescapable fact that human existence is mad, random, and pointless, one in eight of them crack up and go stark slavering buggo! Who can blame them? In a world as psychotic as this... any other response would be crazy!"
Post edited January 24, 2014 by Lionel212008
pimpmonkey2382.313
You are obsolete. Delete!
Registered: Jan 2011
From United States
Posted January 24, 2014
It's not my call anyways from my understanding and I'm just a sinner as well. If it was my decision to make, I would not let you or anyone else suffer hell and damnation, especially for disbelieving and having doubts. I'd find more justice in bringing you into heaven so you could see how wrong in life you were and allow you to tell God you were sorry for ever doubting him and/or losing your faith in him.
And I doubt God will punish for it and will judge you based on how you chose to live your life overall. I've always been a believer that "actions speak louder than words". It's easy to call oneself a Christian. It's another thing entirely to act like one. As someone said before, many so-called Christians have raped, murdered, pillaged, etc. To me these are not real Christians. They were deviants who infiltrated the church and used religion as a mask to get away with their deviancy.
Is being an atheists a deviancy? According to the Bible it is. But even I have not been a perfect follower of the Bible myself. We're all sinners and it's impossible to not give into temptation as a mortal human being. Christ understood this when he lived. I'm sure if you're an all-around good person, you will be granted a place in heaven, even if you chose not to believe. The Bible was written by other men (Christ's followers), not Christ himself. And it's very probable that "additions" were added to the Bible after Christ died to create fear in the hearts and minds of men to convert to Christianity or else. I'm sure whoever added these "additions" meant nothing wrong and were just looking to get as many people following the path of Christ as possible in an effort to save their souls. But since it was done with fear mongering, it has only driven a lot of people away instead. This is why I wish the Bible only contained the true words of Christ and no other "additions" from mortal men as even just one mortal man's words have shown to taint the entire book.
But I do believe most of what's in the Bible is truly the words of Christ. The "turn the other cheek" and the "live by the sword and die by the sword" can only be the words of a man of extreme peace and love. There's no fear mongering in those words. So I think people should read the Bible and follow those passages that only come across as love, peace, and harmony. They are good words to follow even if you're an atheist. "Turn the other cheek" when you're struck upon. Put down your sword as those who "live by the sword, die by the sword". Live positively and be peaceful. If people all around the world would simply do this, "what a wonderful world" it would be. <--- Good song now that I'm thinking about it btw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5TwT69i1lU
God bless you friend and I wish nothing but the best for you and everyone else!
Tallima
TreasureHunting!
Registered: Apr 2010
From United States
Posted January 24, 2014
This 'eye of a needle' is not literal. Jesus meant a narrow rock formation, not a real needle. It's hard to pass a camel through it, but not impossible.
BTW I saw a thing (and yes this is going to get some crap thrown at me) on NatGeo the other day about the increasing evidence that during the approximate time of Moses' escape from Egypt the Red Sea was undergoing a severe drop in water level and thus made several parts of it crossable by foot. Then again I still prefer the Mel Brooks' version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2SUJ_l69GY
kalirion
Future HFIL King
Registered: Apr 2009
From United States
Posted January 24, 2014
Well, if we were to go by actions alone then the vengeful old testament god has committed genocide innumerable times. In contrast, how many people is satan known to have killed?...zero.
Plus he's responsible for the eternal torture of the vast majority of human beings that ever lived, so that kinda trumps genocide. Of course he's pretty much doing it with God's blessing, perhaps even on God's orders, so ....
pimpmonkey2382.313
You are obsolete. Delete!
Registered: Jan 2011
From United States
Posted January 24, 2014
Well, if we were to go by actions alone then the vengeful old testament god has committed genocide innumerable times. In contrast, how many people is satan known to have killed?...zero.
Plus he's responsible for the eternal torture of the vast majority of human beings that ever lived, so that kinda trumps genocide. Of course he's pretty much doing it with God's blessing, perhaps even on God's orders, so ....
hedwards
buy Evil Genius
Registered: Nov 2008
From United States
Posted January 24, 2014
Well, if we were to go by actions alone then the vengeful old testament god has committed genocide innumerable times. In contrast, how many people is satan known to have killed?...zero.
Plus he's responsible for the eternal torture of the vast majority of human beings that ever lived, so that kinda trumps genocide. Of course he's pretty much doing it with God's blessing, perhaps even on God's orders, so ....