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QC: The thing you're looking for is the link from Amoebae to Human. That's basically what you're asking for at this moment. Well, we may never prove it. Fossil records are made by mineral deposits taking the place of calcium in bone and shells, for the most part, so you won't see any evidence of that. What humans are looking for currently is the capacity of humans towards older fossil records that are humanoid. This means Neanderthal for example.

The way we do this is by examining bone structure and DNA. When you look at DNA, what you're trying to find is patterns in the code. These patterns are shared by all common creatures, yet all unique to the individual in some way. In the case of these primitive bone structures, ape-like humanoids, we share a very heavy common amount of it, 99.9% or there about is patterned with our own. Modern apes meanwhile share 98% of our pattern. This could mean nothing, a very big coincidence, or it could mean correlation, that there is somehow a common ancestry between our two species. We can trace many species backwards towards fossil records during the Jurassic era and prior and point out that elephants are actually quite related to spiders, somehow more the horses. The missing link that people look for, that always gets talked about, is this ancestor that links Homo Sapiens to Neanderthal, and we've found a number of varied skeletal remains that do so, but not the one that's missing. Maybe there isn't a link at all, but evidence says that there has to be, missing somewhere in the world. It may be only one fragment of one shoulder sitting in the calcium deposits of a cave in Africa, but that's the hope that it can be found.

As for the early idea, single-celled to human, can't be found. Won't be found. The best you can do is try to re-create the circumstances that caused life to be born. Humans have managed to artificially create proteins and amino acids, last time I'm aware of, the two required substances of any life based organism, but where that went has been so long I couldn't tell you, and all we can ask is that you look at evolution as a very convincing theory, a very plausible and thorough theory, that so far does not have any evidence against it. You just need to find it, and an evidence that doesn't come from simply "Because that's what I was told."
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mystikmind2000: Thanks for that very considered post.

It doesn't seem very likely or logical to me that any Ape shares anything in the range of 98% of our DNA

I have a way of understanding DNA as if it were computer software and if i was to imagine what it would take to program an ape to function as an ape and then tell the programmer "ok now program a human but your only allowed to change the software by 2%, can you do it?" And i cannot imagine any circumstance where that would be at all possible.

Remember years ago when scientists would say we only use 2% of our brain capacity? As the years go by, with more knowledge, that percentage keeps increasing - i would bet a similar process with that Ape DNA percentage with human will keep increasing as the years go by.
The programming method doesn't work too terribly well considering again, Elephant/Spider/Horse relationship. DNA is a common structure, but it doesn't have a lot of bearing on how something is shaped. Rather it's more like a hodgepodge soup of genetic traits from defections, color, size, intellect, so forth. If you wanted to do the programming method, it'd be more like saying "Okay, we've taken a program, and we've scrambled this many aspects about it, now put it back into the program and make it work." Sometimes you get someone like Michael Jordon, he's Athletic, determined, so forth, sometimes you get a brilliant but severely handicapped Steven Hawkings, depending on the programmer.

Rather, it's something a little closer I suppose to doing something like version number and ASCII writing or DOS code. Every Microsoft program in existence runs off of DOS code software. In those programs you'll see similarity of lines, run-programs and directories, folders, open this, close that, run this, make that noise, make that spin, so forth. The variation comes from building what exists. Someone took code and created Pong. Another person took code and created Windows. From Windows came newer versions of windows, came programs like Word, Calculator, Office. From Pong game Castle Wolfenstein, which led to 3D Wolfenstein, then Doom, then all of the sudden you've got Halo 3, Grand Theft Auto, you've got Legend of Zelda and Mario and Metroid and Saint's Row and The Sims, Bejewled, so forth.

Evolution is looked at with that aspect, that you're building off of old genetic material, and the shifts are gradual, changing between versions and models. Sometimes you cross that code with something new that just so happens to work so perfectly that they cross together and work. If you need an example, Zebras, Horses, Donkeys can all interbreed with one another despite vastly different locations and genetics. Humans are looking for the offspring of two such potential parents that lead up to us basically that combine the genetics of both parents.
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QC: The thing you're looking for is the link from Amoebae to Human. That's basically what you're asking for at this moment.
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MaximumBunny: That's Abiogenesis. Evolution doesn't cover how life arose and is independent of any origin theories. Whether we came from basic cells, aliens or deities is anyone's guess, but we do have the resources to deduce which versions of these have more or less validity to them.

There isn't any conflict between science and religion, there's only conflict between people's versions of their religions and their lack of understanding of science. There are many atheists and agnostics who also don't understand science too. It's an education problem.

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tinyE: I'm pretty sure despite all we've learned Licurg still only uses 2%.
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MaximumBunny: You made me think of a guy holding a sign saying "I am the 2%!" :p
That's why I'm in engineering instead of biology. I sucked at my Biology classes.
Post edited January 23, 2014 by QC
Sorry, i got cut off during my previous reply, did not get to asses or finish many points. have to work!, but i will finish and get back here soon.
You might not imagine that it is possible, but it is, and its a fact.

Even if the percentage was to change in the future due to better tech, I doubt the change would be significant.

I agree though, that its pretty mind blowing when you think about it. If you have a problem imagining it, just think about how our organism works. Our brain, blood vessels, all of these internal organs, respiratory system etc etc - it truly is a wonder. Our basic functions are complicated as hell. Even when you fart, its a result of a shitload of various processes.

And add to that our intelligence - no one has come even close so far to create a true AI. Yet, we somehow posess this intelligence, so it should be possible to make a model that functions in the same way.

Knowing all that, this marginal difference in DNA starts looking very reasonably.
Post edited January 23, 2014 by DrYaboll
I don't hate religion. Truth be told, I get my girl to dress up like a catholic schoolgirl every now and then.
Post edited January 23, 2014 by Lionel212008
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Lionel212008: I don't hate religion. I get my girl to dress up like a catholic schoolgirl every now and then.
I was hoping it wasn't going to end with "catholic schoolboy". I was gonna ask what you dress as. :P
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ThoRn: snip
Quick reply at 04:00 (why am I still up?)

1) I never said I'm an atheist. I was raised as a Christian (Orthodox if it matters), from a very religious family (great grandfather a priest, grandfather, grandmother and uncle all church chanters, cousin a nun), so I didn't study the bible as an atheist, I studied it as a Christian. Yet you assume I'm an atheist. I may no longer identify myself as an Orthodox Christian, but that doesn't mean I don't believe in religion.

2) The Inquisition and the Crusaders were not people claiming to be Christians and not behaving properly. They were people that Christianity (the religious order) claimed they were acting properly, even though they were murdering and pillaging. So it's not individuals that behaved contrary to their religion, but a religion that urged its followers to act in an immoral (for us) manner, though that manner was perfectly moral for the religion (and society) at that point.

3) You say that religion brings morality, I say that morality brings religion. It's much simpler to justify the rules of the society as "Divine Rights" than to explain why the society will benefit from having those morals. First thing a society needs to do to survive is to ensure that the members of the society put the good of the society above their personal benefit. Think of the mother that dies defending her children, of the soldier that prevents the invaders from burning the village, or the childless parent that adopts an orphan. All of those examples are also encountered in animals, so if the previous behavior is deemed moral, animals do act morally, even though they don't have religion (or at least none that we can understand as such).

4) I do not claim that believing in religion is meaningless. But I don't believe it's the fear of God that prevents you from acting your base desires. I believe it's fear of man, and how the human society will treat you once you are caught. If you deem yourself outside of the human society, then it's when you act in an evil way. Some people do first split the human society in "us" and "them", with the deciding factor varying depending on individual. It may be family, so you act in an almost holy way towards members of your own family, but every stranger is fair game. It may be race, so you treat your own race with decency while torturing any member of another race without guilt. It may be creed, so you are treating the infidels no better than vermin. It may even be height ("Hah, let's go kick the midget"). All the above examples may be religious individuals, and may be following their religion to the letter, with the only exception that their definition of humans is different than yours and mine. So religion has little to do with morality. Society has more to do with morality.

Damn it, this was supposed to be a quick reply. Oh well, off to sleep.
Human beings are still a primitive species, we know little and we understand little. Even if we are to put the sum of all of human knowledge together then we would deemed as being 'ignorant'. God is like an 'x' in a given equation and and is owing to an inability of human beings to comprehend natural phenomena. It is the apotheosis of human ignorance..

We must draw inferences from observation and thus arrive at a logical conclusion. The idea of a god isn't a tenable one and is a but pre-conceived notion. It is a merely a meek attempt to find solace in the precarious nature of human existence.Thus religion in essence robs man of rational thought and trenchant imagination.

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DrYaboll: snip
Post edited January 23, 2014 by Lionel212008
low rated
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pimpmonkey2382: If you need religion to feel better about your life and to do good, then you aren't really good to begin with.
We're all sinners. And you're judging here. Who's to say what's right or wrong or who's good or evil other than God?

Another mortal man who doesn't believe in God or the idea of good and evil such as yourself? (Laughs) No thanks.

You're living by somebody else's beliefs either way - much of what you believe and how you live your life revolves around religion no matter how you try to slice it. Otherwise you'd be out killing and raping and stealing without guilt or fear of hell and damnation just like all the lesser creatures than ourselves on this planet do. Not a single one of them has religion. They just have their nature and act on their primitive impulses. They are the true atheists in this world.

Humans used to act this way too long before religion. Caveman clonked cavewoman over the head and raped her. He didn't have an ounce of guilt for it either. And soon after she gave birth to his child and he attempted to kill the child because he assumed babies were meant to be snacks, I'm sure the mother of his child probably drove a long spear through his chest before he could harm their child. And I'm sure she slept a little better knowing that he was not a threat to her and their child anymore and she and the child had a good helping of roasted daddy digesting away in their bellies as well.

After religion, things changed for the better for everyone. It allowed civilizations to grow and prosper and people didn't have to live in as much fear of one another as they did without religion. It's easy for atheists to sit here today and judge the last 5000+ years or more and say it was all wrong and we've all been lied too. But not a single one of you would be here today if not for religion paving the way to this very moment where you sit in judgment.

But again I make things simple for myself. Do I want to believe in God or not? It's a personal choice and I choose to believe because I figure "why not"? I've got nothing to lose by believing and everything to gain from it. If it turns out I'm wrong it won't matter in the end. I'll get the same as you atheists and that's an eternity of nothingness and won't know or care. I'll admit there's some peace in that but there's also peace in the idea of a heaven and seeing family and friends again you loved and lost in life in a better place without all the negatives this world has.

Either way is peaceful to me. But if religion turns out to be true then I fear that death may not be as peaceful for you atheists as you're hoping it will be. Seems like you're playing with fire to me. I never had to personally put my hand on the stove to learn it was hot. I trusted in my father and believed him when he told me. But I guess many of you just have to see for yourselves and can't trust anyone or anything until you've experience it for yourselves. But just know, that if you end up in hell for eternity you can't get out of it. You're there for eternity and really be regretting your foolishness in life when the choice of having faith wasn't that hard to begin with. The risks are just too great in my opinion. Christ made things very easy. Just having some faith in something more than yourselves is not that hard to do really.

Seems like it takes more energy and causes more headaches to be an atheists always having to argue against religion. Well, if that's fun for you then suit yourselves. I'm going to bed and will say my prayers tonight and ask God to bless you all regardless. Goodnight!
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pimpmonkey2382: If you need religion to feel better about your life and to do good, then you aren't really good to begin with.
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ThoRn: We're all sinners. And you're judging here. Who's to say what's right or wrong or who's good or evil other than God?
My equally imaginary friend Claude thinks that nothing I do is a sin. Why does this "God" have any more say than my dear pal Claude?

Sin is a religious construct and nobody really knows what is and isn't a sin. Even Christians can't agree with each other on anything other than the most egregious examples. And those are by and large things that people don't need religion to say are wrong.
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ThoRn: Seems like it takes more energy and causes more headaches to be an atheists always having to argue against religion. Well, if that's fun for you then suit yourselves. I'm going to bed and will say my prayers tonight and ask God to bless you all regardless. Goodnight!
Mostly because it's the religious folks that are the ones trying to fore their beliefs on other people. The burden of proof has always been on the people who believe in things that can't be seen. You can't prove a negative, but you can prove a positive.
Post edited January 23, 2014 by hedwards
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ThoRn: We're all sinners. And you're judging here. Who's to say what's right or wrong or who's good or evil other than God?
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hedwards: My equally imaginary friend Claude thinks that nothing I do is a sin. Why does this "God" have any more say than my dear pal Claude?

Sin is a religious construct and nobody really knows what is and isn't a sin. Even Christians can't agree with each other on anything other than the most egregious examples. And those are by and large things that people don't need religion to say are wrong.
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ThoRn: Seems like it takes more energy and causes more headaches to be an atheists always having to argue against religion. Well, if that's fun for you then suit yourselves. I'm going to bed and will say my prayers tonight and ask God to bless you all regardless. Goodnight!
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hedwards: Mostly because it's the religious folks that are the ones trying to fore their beliefs on other people. The burden of proof has always been on the people who believe in things that can't be seen. You can't prove a negative, but you can prove a positive.
And also acting like their bible should be taught in schools. I don't want my kid, nor does my brother want his force fed this because the school happens to believe it.
Post edited January 23, 2014 by pimpmonkey2382
This thread has moved on too much from my conversation earlier, but thanks to all those trying to answer my questions. I still haven't found the answers i am looking for, but perhaps one day i will.

Personally i believe that DNA will be the area which will reveal many big secrets into the future .... although it is a bit scary to imagine how the world would react to conclusive evidence in favor of Evolution or God!?? In view of that, perhaps we are better off not knowing?

Huh, who am i kidding....

If tomorrow world science announced the discovery of proof that God exists-
Honestly, probably not many would choose to believe it.

If tomorrow world science announced the discovery of conclusive proof that Evolution is correct-
Honestly, probably not many would choose to believe it.

Net result - same old same old.
I highly doubt anything will show evidence of "god".
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pimpmonkey2382: I highly doubt anything will show evidence of "god".
Your probably right - because why would God allow himself to be discovered after doing so well at hiding from world science up to this point and the reasons for said hiding will not have changed??

But have you ever asked yourself what you would do if it did?
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pimpmonkey2382: I highly doubt anything will show evidence of "god".
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mystikmind2000: Your probably right - because why would God allow himself to be discovered after doing so well at hiding from world science up to this point and the reasons for said hiding will not have changed??

But have you ever asked yourself what you would do if it did?
If he was real, he'd just let everyone know he was there anyway.
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pimpmonkey2382: I highly doubt anything will show evidence of "god".
anything is possible

But nothing can prove the existence of god.

If I see a guy who looks like the common image of Jesus Christ, walking on water, healing the sick, turning water to wine and multiplying fish and loaves of bread.... there are any number of explanations that would pop into my head as being no less likely than "this is the son of God".