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I'm agnostic and as long as nobody bothers me they can be catholics, Mormons, atheist or what ever they want, is fine with me but again as long as they dont break my balls with anything, I dont go in my life trying to convince others in anything so do the same are we are going to get along :)
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hedwards: If you're skeptical of what the mainstream scientific community has to say after having weighed the evidence. Then it's your responsibility to dig into it and find some actual evidence that falsifies those theories. The fact that no creationist has managed to do that, is a reliable indication that evolution is true and creationism isn't.
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wpegg: I don't like this science. You've taken a stance of "true until proven false". Failure to disprove is not proof of the alternative, nor (in itself) a reliable indication. I assume there was a level of irony in your post, as I think you and I both appreciate that the point that it really is just a proof that we haven't proved it.
That's how science works. The theory has sufficient evidence backing it from research and will stand until such a time as it's disproved. Hypotheses need a ton of support and replication before they're allowed to become a theory. Once it becomes a theory, the onus shifts to the people that don't believe in it to disprove the theory.

A failure to disprove a theory is an indication that it's reliable. There's a ton of scientists that would love to make a name for themselves disproving the theory of evolution. If somebody manages to disprove the theory, then the theory will either be tossed completely, or reformulated to take into account the new information.

It's a common misconception that because something is a "theory" that it's somehow unreliable or not well supported by the research. There's an incredibly high barrier to being declared a law, and most of what we do in life is still based upon theory.

This isn't any more based upon assumption than the fact that I assume I'm still wearing underwear because I put them on this morning. Who knows, maybe I fell asleep at some point and somebody stole them. I haven't specifically checked since I last used the rest room.

You see what I'm getting at here? All of the available evidence points in the direction of some form of evolution. The debates have been over for quite some time and nobody has managed to come up with an alternative that's supported by evidence and more reasonable.
Post edited January 23, 2014 by hedwards
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I've noticed most of the comments here are from atheists who are pushing their religion of non-belief onto those who choose to still believe and they're using insults and personal attacks by taking some sort of "holier-than-thou" approach thinking they (the atheists) are more evolved and/or more intelligent or more knowing than those of us who choose to be faithful to our religion.

But let's just see who's smart and who's not shall we? ...

So I'll ask, which restaurant do you wish to eat at?

1. The one promising to serve you absolutely nothing at a potentially exorbitant cost to yourself via your soul (atheism).

2. Or the one promising to serve you steak and lobster and a fine wine at the very affordable cost of having had some faith in God (religion).

???

Note - Taking a "logical" approach to this question, I believe ANY religion is better than none when looking at these odds and the potential costs involved.

If atheists are all about logic and intelligence they certainly don't show it in their arguments as they foolishly choose restaurant number 1. The one without any food or wine and the highest cost to themselves.

But let's say they are right and it turns out there is nothing after life and none of us are getting any food or wine no matter which restaurant we chose, then having had faith in a creator in life did not matter. We're all going to be hungry and be soulless nothings anyways - if THEY (the atheists) are right. However, if turns out that there is a God, and you were supposed to have faith in him during your life, then you stand to lose your soul for eternity for having been so cheap as to pick restaurant number 1.

I wouldn't call that "smart" or "logical" exactly. And no, it's not cool either no matter how much of an Internet "tough guy" you try to be online. I bet most of these supposed atheists scream out for Jesus or God when they're in pain or see a loved one dying and when life suddenly gets a little too real for them. I bet most will ask for God's forgiveness before they die. And I'm not going to say that it's too late then because I have no idea. I'm not the creator and it's not my place to judge. I think the Lord will forgive those who truly mean it and want to be saved.

But if you really want to not-eat as restaurant number one, then you can there with that fat scruffy looking guy who always covers his eyes with sunglasses from Texas that looks like he's going to a funeral every day, Aaron Ra, or whatever his name is who claims to be some know-it-all atheists and tries to get others to lose their faith in God, just as the Bible stated would happen btw. Or you can put some faith into a religion and believe in something more than just yourselves and stop trying to be hip and put down others who choose to believe.

All I know is I'd really like some steak and lobster and some fine wine. Who's with me?!
Post edited January 23, 2014 by ThoRn
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ThoRn: I've noticed most of the comments here are from atheists who are pushing their religion of non-belief onto those who choose to still believe and they're using insults and personal attacks by taking some sort of "holier-than-thou" approach thinking they (the atheists) are more evolved and/or more intelligent or more knowing than those of us who choose to be faithful to our religion.

But let's just see who's smart and who's not...

So again I ask, which restaurant do you wish to eat at?

1. The one promising to serve you absolutely nothing at a potentially exorbitant cost to yourself via your soul (atheism).

2. Or the one promising to serve you steak and lobster and a fine wine at the very affordable cost of having some faith in God (religion).

???

Note - Taking "logical" approach, I believe ANY religion is better than none when looking at these odds and the potential costs involved.

If atheists are all about logic and intelligence they certainly don't show it in their arguments as they foolishly choose restaurant number 1. The one without any food or wine and the highest cost.

But let's say they are right and it turns out there is nothing after life and none of us getting any food or wine then having had faith in a creator in life will not matter. We're all going to be hungry and be soulless nothings anyways - if THEY (the atheists) are right. However, if turns out that there is a God, and you were supposed to have faith in him during your life, then you stand to lose your soul for eternity for having been so cheap as to pick restaurant number 1.

I wouldn't call that "smart" or "logical" exactly. And no, it's not cool either no matter how much of an Internet "tough guy" you try to be online. I bet most of these supposed atheists scream out for Jesus or God when they're in pain or see a loved one dying and when life suddenly gets a little too real for them. I bet most will ask for God's forgiveness before they die. And I'm not going to say that it's too late then because I have no idea. I'm not the creator and it's not my place to judge. I think the Lord will forgive those who truly mean it and want to be saved.

But if you really want to not-eat as restaurant number one, then you can there with that fat scruffy looking guy who always covers his eyes with sunglasses from Texas that looks like he's going to a funeral every day, Aaron Ra, or whatever his name is who claims to be some know-it-all atheists and tries to get others to lose their faith in God, just as the Bible stated would happen btw. Or you can put some faith into a religion and believe in something more than just yourselves and stop trying to be hip and put down others who choose to believe.

All I know is I'd really like some steak and lobster and some fine wine. Who's with me?!
That's an odd perspective to have. I've been on death's door in the past, and it only made me more convinced that there was no God out there. And that's normal, most people don't start believing in God just because they're about to die or bad things are happening. The ones that "convert" usually already had some beliefs that became stronger.

As for the intelligence bit, are you fucking kidding me? You've got some idiots in here that claim creationism is real and are demanding proof that evolution is real, because there's fewer "assumptions" involved with that. If that doesn't represent idiocy of the highest order, I'm really curious what exactly makes that any less moronic than it appears.

As for your comment about the menu items. That's just a variant of Pascal's Wager, and it's always had serious issues. It ignores the very real cost of being a religious person in this lifetime on the off chance that there's an after life where you've managed to choose the correct religion.

What's more, it's rather arrogant to suggest that living in reality is somehow a bad thing. Religion is a bit of a crutch that some people need, but the reality is that anybody can have a meaningful life without having some sort of religion involved. I know my life hasn't been any less meaningful during periods where I've completely avoided religion.
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mystikmind2000: The evidence only explains what it is 'assumed' to explain - this is the whole point of my question! Just once, i would like to see something that has no human assumption attached to it.
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pimpmonkey2382: And there's absolutely zero, zilch, 0, nada evidence for religion. Troll.
Don't get me started on the problems with religion! I may be Christian but i am not afraid to use my own mind and see and admit all the problems.

When it comes to Evolution.... what i am really looking for, I am trying to understand how so many intelligent people can believe so strongly in Evolution when it is so lacking,, I really do want to have my faith in humanity restored, so i would love to see Evolution properly proven, and it would be such a relief, then i would not have to feel so alone on this island of doubt against Evolution and question my own intelligence because why are all those intelligent people all over there and i am over here and my own intelligence is telling me one thing and they all believe the other.
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ThoRn: I bet most of these supposed atheists scream out for Jesus or God when they're in pain or see a loved one dying and when life suddenly gets a little too real for them.
Had cancer; almost died.

Didn't call out their name once.
If you need religion to feel better about your life and to do good, then you aren't really good to begin with.
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ThoRn: Pascal's bet
It's not a decision of the most convenient or pleasant. it's not a "rational choice" in terms of game theories and probabilities of rewards. It's just about knowledge and understanding of the world, as it is, regardless of wishes. Afterlife is nicer than oblivion, and post-mortem objective justice is nicer than injustice never set right. But we don't make things exist as we want. We're not discussing about choosing a menu.

You don't bribe worldviews.
Post edited January 23, 2014 by Telika
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pimpmonkey2382: And there's absolutely zero, zilch, 0, nada evidence for religion. Troll.
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mystikmind2000: Don't get me started on the problems with religion! I may be Christian but i am not afraid to use my own mind and see and admit all the problems.

When it comes to Evolution.... what i am really looking for, I am trying to understand how so many intelligent people can believe so strongly in Evolution when it is so lacking,, I really do want to have my faith in humanity restored, so i would love to see Evolution properly proven, and it would be such a relief, then i would not have to feel so alone on this island of doubt against Evolution and question my own intelligence because why are all those intelligent people all over there and i am over here and my own intelligence is telling me one thing and they all believe the other.
Because it's not lacking. There's always parts of these things that haven't yet been completely established. But, when you look at the broader picture, the evidence doesn't really point to anything else. We've got families of organisms sorted by DNA that inhabit the planet. Some of them have evolved in different ways due to changing climate conditions. And we have a fossil record that documents that this has been going on for a very long period of time.

To date, nobody has been able to find any shred of evidence that supports the creationist beliefs. Not one piece of evidence.

Hence why scientists don't even bother looking anymore. After nearly 2 centuries, nobody has been able to come up with a viable theory that involves creationism that could stand up to efforts to disprove it.

Most of the problems people have with the theory are relatively minor. We know that evolution goes on on both the macro and micro scale, but establishing evolution as a law means that we would need more support. We would need to show that it happens on other planets as well. And we would need to know all of the details about how it works.

Needless to say that's a very high burden to meet, which is why it's still just a theory. but it's rather ridiculous to suggest that evolution is lacking when creationism lacks everything except a name and definition.
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mystikmind2000: Don't get me started on the problems with religion! I may be Christian but i am not afraid to use my own mind and see and admit all the problems.

When it comes to Evolution.... what i am really looking for, I am trying to understand how so many intelligent people can believe so strongly in Evolution when it is so lacking,, I really do want to have my faith in humanity restored, so i would love to see Evolution properly proven, and it would be such a relief, then i would not have to feel so alone on this island of doubt against Evolution and question my own intelligence because why are all those intelligent people all over there and i am over here and my own intelligence is telling me one thing and they all believe the other.
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hedwards: Because it's not lacking. There's always parts of these things that haven't yet been completely established. But, when you look at the broader picture, the evidence doesn't really point to anything else. We've got families of organisms sorted by DNA that inhabit the planet. Some of them have evolved in different ways due to changing climate conditions. And we have a fossil record that documents that this has been going on for a very long period of time.

To date, nobody has been able to find any shred of evidence that supports the creationist beliefs. Not one piece of evidence.

Hence why scientists don't even bother looking anymore. After nearly 2 centuries, nobody has been able to come up with a viable theory that involves creationism that could stand up to efforts to disprove it.

Most of the problems people have with the theory are relatively minor. We know that evolution goes on on both the macro and micro scale, but establishing evolution as a law means that we would need more support. We would need to show that it happens on other planets as well. And we would need to know all of the details about how it works.

Needless to say that's a very high burden to meet, which is why it's still just a theory. but it's rather ridiculous to suggest that evolution is lacking when creationism lacks everything except a name and definition.
Everything i have ever seen or heard about evolution is lacking. But one day i hope that will change, and i continue to keep an open mind.

Evolution is nonetheless a fascinating topic, and some of the science behind it is ingenious but whenever the scientists start making their assumptions i can see how what they say is surrounded by boundless possibilities why other things could be happening but they are guided by Evolution to draw Evolutions conclusions.... it is a self for filling theory.
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pimpmonkey2382: And there's absolutely zero, zilch, 0, nada evidence for religion. Troll.
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mystikmind2000: Don't get me started on the problems with religion! I may be Christian but i am not afraid to use my own mind and see and admit all the problems.

When it comes to Evolution.... what i am really looking for, I am trying to understand how so many intelligent people can believe so strongly in Evolution when it is so lacking,, I really do want to have my faith in humanity restored, so i would love to see Evolution properly proven, and it would be such a relief, then i would not have to feel so alone on this island of doubt against Evolution and question my own intelligence because why are all those intelligent people all over there and i am over here and my own intelligence is telling me one thing and they all believe the other.
The thing you're looking for is the link from Amoebae to Human. That's basically what you're asking for at this moment. Well, we may never prove it. Fossil records are made by mineral deposits taking the place of calcium in bone and shells, for the most part, so you won't see any evidence of that. What humans are looking for currently is the capacity of humans towards older fossil records that are humanoid. This means Neanderthal for example.

The way we do this is by examining bone structure and DNA. When you look at DNA, what you're trying to find is patterns in the code. These patterns are shared by all common creatures, yet all unique to the individual in some way. In the case of these primitive bone structures, ape-like humanoids, we share a very heavy common amount of it, 99.9% or there about is patterned with our own. Modern apes meanwhile share 98% of our pattern. This could mean nothing, a very big coincidence, or it could mean correlation, that there is somehow a common ancestry between our two species. We can trace many species backwards towards fossil records during the Jurassic era and prior and point out that elephants are actually quite related to spiders, somehow more the horses. The missing link that people look for, that always gets talked about, is this ancestor that links Homo Sapiens to Neanderthal, and we've found a number of varied skeletal remains that do so, but not the one that's missing. Maybe there isn't a link at all, but evidence says that there has to be, missing somewhere in the world. It may be only one fragment of one shoulder sitting in the calcium deposits of a cave in Africa, but that's the hope that it can be found.

As for the early idea, single-celled to human, can't be found. Won't be found. The best you can do is try to re-create the circumstances that caused life to be born. Humans have managed to artificially create proteins and amino acids, last time I'm aware of, the two required substances of any life based organism, but where that went has been so long I couldn't tell you, and all we can ask is that you look at evolution as a very convincing theory, a very plausible and thorough theory, that so far does not have any evidence against it. You just need to find it, and an evidence that doesn't come from simply "Because that's what I was told."
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mystikmind2000: Don't get me started on the problems with religion! I may be Christian but i am not afraid to use my own mind and see and admit all the problems.

When it comes to Evolution.... what i am really looking for, I am trying to understand how so many intelligent people can believe so strongly in Evolution when it is so lacking,, I really do want to have my faith in humanity restored, so i would love to see Evolution properly proven, and it would be such a relief, then i would not have to feel so alone on this island of doubt against Evolution and question my own intelligence because why are all those intelligent people all over there and i am over here and my own intelligence is telling me one thing and they all believe the other.
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QC: The thing you're looking for is the link from Amoebae to Human. That's basically what you're asking for at this moment. Well, we may never prove it. Fossil records are made by mineral deposits taking the place of calcium in bone and shells, for the most part, so you won't see any evidence of that. What humans are looking for currently is the capacity of humans towards older fossil records that are humanoid. This means Neanderthal for example.

The way we do this is by examining bone structure and DNA. When you look at DNA, what you're trying to find is patterns in the code. These patterns are shared by all common creatures, yet all unique to the individual in some way. In the case of these primitive bone structures, ape-like humanoids, we share a very heavy common amount of it, 99.9% or there about is patterned with our own. Modern apes meanwhile share 98% of our pattern. This could mean nothing, a very big coincidence, or it could mean correlation, that there is somehow a common ancestry between our two species. We can trace many species backwards towards fossil records during the Jurassic era and prior and point out that elephants are actually quite related to spiders, somehow more the horses. The missing link that people look for, that always gets talked about, is this ancestor that links Homo Sapiens to Neanderthal, and we've found a number of varied skeletal remains that do so, but not the one that's missing. Maybe there isn't a link at all, but evidence says that there has to be, missing somewhere in the world. It may be only one fragment of one shoulder sitting in the calcium deposits of a cave in Africa, but that's the hope that it can be found.

As for the early idea, single-celled to human, can't be found. Won't be found. The best you can do is try to re-create the circumstances that caused life to be born. Humans have managed to artificially create proteins and amino acids, last time I'm aware of, the two required substances of any life based organism, but where that went has been so long I couldn't tell you, and all we can ask is that you look at evolution as a very convincing theory, a very plausible and thorough theory, that so far does not have any evidence against it. You just need to find it, and an evidence that doesn't come from simply "Because that's what I was told."
Thanks for that very considered post.

It doesn't seem very likely or logical to me that any Ape shares anything in the range of 98% of our DNA

I have a way of understanding DNA as if it were computer software and if i was to imagine what it would take to program an ape to function as an ape and then tell the programmer "ok now program a human but your only allowed to change the software by 2%, can you do it?" And i cannot imagine any circumstance where that would be at all possible.

Remember years ago when scientists would say we only use 2% of our brain capacity? As the years go by, with more knowledge, that percentage keeps increasing - i would bet a similar process with that Ape DNA percentage with human will keep increasing as the years go by.

Edit: I'm at work and did not get time to finish replying sorry
Post edited January 23, 2014 by mystikmind2000
I'm pretty sure despite all we've learned Licurg still only uses 2%.
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QC: The thing you're looking for is the link from Amoebae to Human. That's basically what you're asking for at this moment.
That's Abiogenesis. Evolution doesn't cover how life arose and is independent of any origin theories. Whether we came from basic cells, aliens or deities is anyone's guess, but we do have the resources to deduce which versions of these have more or less validity to them.

There isn't any conflict between science and religion, there's only conflict between people's versions of their religions and their lack of understanding of science. There are many atheists and agnostics who also don't understand science too. It's an education problem.

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tinyE: I'm pretty sure despite all we've learned Licurg still only uses 2%.
You made me think of a guy holding a sign saying "I am the 2%!" :p
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mystikmind2000: It doesn't seem very likely or logical to me that any Ape shares anything in the range of 98% of our DNA
The Chimpanzee does and whether or not you consider it likely doesn't change much.
edit:Forgot to mention that bonobos do as well.
http://news.sciencemag.org/plants-animals/2012/06/bonobos-join-chimps-closest-human-relatives
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mystikmind2000: I have a way of understanding DNA as if it were computer software and if i was to imagine what it would take to program an ape to function as an ape and then tell the programmer "ok now program a human but your only allowed to change the software by 2%, can you do it?" And i cannot imagine any circumstance where that would be at all possible.
Well good news! you don't have to imagine! You can study all about evolution right here on this computerized doo-hickey you're communicating with right now.

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mystikmind2000: Remember years ago when scientists would say we only use 2% of our brain capacity?
Except that scientists never said that, a bunch of "psychic" nutjobs and self-help gurus kept using that line to market their products and the general populace just ran with it.

http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp
Post edited January 23, 2014 by Shaolin_sKunk