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General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
(2370 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted June 24, 2014
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grimwerk: Any vehicle-related properties that they feel they've had to give up or reduce for the sake of inserting or extracting children without bending.
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Coelocanth: Fair enough. I just didn't really see what was compromised and was curious if people had said anything about it (I own a minivan, but don't go around telling other people that have kids that they need to buy one).
I knew I should have qualified with 'many' or 'some'!

I just bought a car yesterday, and during the process, I had some surprisingly aggressive input from friends and family.

edit:
And I should clarify that several members of my family would describe 600 horsepower as "enough".
Post edited June 24, 2014 by grimwerk
Posted June 24, 2014
My hats off to whoever managed to get this topic from theology to automotive; at least now I might learn something. :D
Posted June 24, 2014
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IAmSinistar: EDIT: Also, there is the fact that some people are wired such that conformity triggers the reward circuit in the brain. They see others whom they perceive as social peers doing the same things they do, and this gives them a hit of positive reinforcement. Conversely, when they see such peers not doing as they do, this is a negative hit. This kind of wiring has some benefits towards group cohesion, but it is also a detriment towards individuality and innovation. At its extreme it leads to people who cannot conceive of others thinking differently from themselves and still being valid humans.
This is something I'd like to read about. Perhaps it'd lead me to make more sensible decisions in the future!
Posted June 24, 2014
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IAmSinistar: Good example. We like to placate the demons of our doubts and reinforce that our poor decisions were in fact good ones by getting others to accompany us in our folly.
But there's also the other type of folly of constantly doubting one's own decisions and living in regret for every single choice made, because it could have been better if I only... and then looking for consolation and guidance with other people (priests, gurus, führers) and religion - to get rid of the responsibility to make one's own decisions and thus of the self-doubting.
Posted June 24, 2014
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grimwerk: I knew I should have qualified with 'many' or 'some'!
Naw, I generally read things that way (I been around the intrawebs long enough for that). I just find it amusing sometimes when people tell other people how wrong their decisions are because of reasons, when those reasons may not actually apply to the other person. :)

@tinyE: I'm not into arguing the whole religion thing anymore (been there, done that too many times to not know by now that it's futile), so the automotive comment is the only reason I even jumped in.
Posted June 24, 2014
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IAmSinistar: Good example. We like to placate the demons of our doubts and reinforce that our poor decisions were in fact good ones by getting others to accompany us in our folly.

EDIT: Also, there is the fact that some people are wired such that conformity triggers the reward circuit in the brain. They see others whom they perceive as social peers doing the same things they do, and this gives them a hit of positive reinforcement. Conversely, when they see such peers not doing as they do, this is a negative hit. This kind of wiring has some benefits towards group cohesion, but it is also a detriment towards individuality and innovation. At its extreme it leads to people who cannot conceive of others thinking differently from themselves and still being valid humans.
That reminds me of me whenever I try to say that "Independence Day" and 1998's Godzilla are good films :P
Post edited June 24, 2014 by Matewis
Posted June 24, 2014
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IAmSinistar: EDIT: Also, there is the fact that some people are wired such that conformity triggers the reward circuit in the brain. They see others whom they perceive as social peers doing the same things they do, and this gives them a hit of positive reinforcement. Conversely, when they see such peers not doing as they do, this is a negative hit. This kind of wiring has some benefits towards group cohesion, but it is also a detriment towards individuality and innovation. At its extreme it leads to people who cannot conceive of others thinking differently from themselves and still being valid humans.
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grimwerk: This is something I'd like to read about. Perhaps it'd lead me to make more sensible decisions in the future!
Behavioural neurobiology is fascinating, and it can indeed help you understand your own thought processes better, as well as those of others. I don't take a completely reductionist view that we are just chemical machinery, but nonetheless our wiring exerts a powerful influence over our natures, and it behooves us to comprehend it if we want to transcend it.


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toxicTom: But there's also the other type of folly of constantly doubting one's own decisions and living in regret for every single choice made, because it could have been better if I only... and then looking for consolation and guidance with other people (priests, gurus, führers) and religion - to get rid of the responsibility to make one's own decisions and thus of the self-doubting.
Many of us desire greatly to be shriven of our sins, perhaps in part due to a notion that if any part of the self is imperfect, the whole of the self is worthless. Others of us accept the human condition for what it is, and carry the weight of our vices, which (if we deign to be a good person) we try to counterbalance by a greater measure of virtue.
Post edited June 24, 2014 by IAmSinistar
Posted June 24, 2014
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grimwerk: I knew I should have qualified with 'many' or 'some'!
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Coelocanth: Naw, I generally read things that way (I been around the intrawebs long enough for that). I just find it amusing sometimes when people tell other people how wrong their decisions are because of reasons, when those reasons may not actually apply to the other person. :)
Funnily enough, I did meet a fella whose dream car was a Ford Windstar.

I was waiting for a bus in London very late one night years ago, and got to chatting with a Polish kid at the stop. He was waiting tables for the summer in Notting Hill. I don't remember how we came to the subject, but he loved the idea of cruising along a U.S. highway in a Windstar with his bare feet sticking out the window. I hope he's managed to do it since.
Posted June 24, 2014
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grimwerk: Funnily enough, I did meet a fella whose dream car was a Ford Windstar.

I was waiting for a bus in London very late one night years ago, and got to chatting with a Polish kid at the stop. He was waiting tables for the summer in Notting Hill. I don't remember how we came to the subject, but he loved the idea of cruising along a U.S. highway in a Windstar with his bare feet sticking out the window. I hope he's managed to do it since.
lol - that's awesome!
Posted June 25, 2014
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mojoman69: atheist means you don't believe in fantasy. J/K
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Elmofongo: JK as in JK Rowling?

I am an atheist I don't believe Fantasy things exist, but I enjoy them.
JK or J/K = Just Kidding. Yeah I'm atheist as well. I believe in science, not science fiction/Fantasy.
Post edited June 25, 2014 by mojoman69
Posted June 25, 2014
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IAmSinistar: Many of us desire greatly to be shriven of our sins, perhaps in part due to a notion that if any part of the self is imperfect, the whole of the self is worthless. Others of us accept the human condition for what it is, and carry the weight of our vices, which (if we deign to be a good person) we try to counterbalance by a greater measure of virtue.
if someone believes in sin, they cant be "worthless" - i mean isnt sin then more like negative balance -__-
Anyways, i feel that many people thinking about sin are just looking for some kind of meaning to their life. "Sin" (ie divine "do not's") are ofcourse quite obvious route for many.

I cant say ive met alot of people who were true nihilists, but certainly alot of general pessimists who dont even want to try doing anything because they know "it will fail". Funnily enough, one could suspect that there were more nihilists and pessimists among atheists than theists (divine meaning vs no meaning whatsoever > making one by yourself isnt easy) - but ive got no idea if there are any statistics on that :)
Posted June 25, 2014
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iippo: if someone believes in sin, they cant be "worthless" - i mean isnt sin then more like negative balance -__-
Worthless as in without worth, either to their fellow humans or to their god. Specifically I'm talking about people who have very binary notions of right and wrong, proper and improper, and they can't abide any "greyness" in their makeup. These can be dangerous people, since every human has greyness and denying it in oneself leads to some extremely unhealthy mental and social issues.

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iippo: I cant say ive met alot of people who were true nihilists, but certainly alot of general pessimists who dont even want to try doing anything because they know "it will fail". Funnily enough, one could suspect that there were more nihilists and pessimists among atheists than theists (divine meaning vs no meaning whatsoever > making one by yourself isnt easy) - but ive got no idea if there are any statistics on that :)
Genuine nihilism is exceedingly rare, though it is affected by many people who are jaded to the world. This affectation points to a lack in their selves, rather than any deficit in the world itself. As for whether having belief versus not makes one more motivated, I could argue that believers are less like to strive and work for change because they believe faith is enough, and that someone higher power will take care of the hard parts for them. This supposition is just as anecdotal as yours though, and I don't have any figures as to whether it is accurate.
Posted June 25, 2014
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iippo: if someone believes in sin, they cant be "worthless" - i mean isnt sin then more like negative balance -__-
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IAmSinistar: Worthless as in without worth, either to their fellow humans or to their god. Specifically I'm talking about people who have very binary notions of right and wrong, proper and improper, and they can't abide any "greyness" in their makeup. These can be dangerous people, since every human has greyness and denying it in oneself leads to some extremely unhealthy mental and social issues.
this is certainly true.

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iippo: I cant say ive met alot of people who were true nihilists, but certainly alot of general pessimists who dont even want to try doing anything because they know "it will fail". Funnily enough, one could suspect that there were more nihilists and pessimists among atheists than theists (divine meaning vs no meaning whatsoever > making one by yourself isnt easy) - but ive got no idea if there are any statistics on that :)
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IAmSinistar: Genuine nihilism is exceedingly rare, though it is affected by many people who are jaded to the world. This affectation points to a lack in their selves, rather than any deficit in the world itself. As for whether having belief versus not makes one more motivated, I could argue that believers are less like to strive and work for change because they believe faith is enough, and that someone higher power will take care of the hard parts for them. This supposition is just as anecdotal as yours though, and I don't have any figures as to whether it is accurate.
This sort of "passive-fatalism" or whatever it should be called is pretty much the pinnacle of selfimportance. I mean in extreme you pretty much just sit on your ass, dont do anything at all about the truck heading towards you and demand god to do something about it instead.
.....right.

In Thailand ive seen alot of this kind of "if it happens its karma" attitude, where people are taking some unnecessary risks and not using safety equipment - because supposedly helmet doesnt protect against karma. But also ive seen people accept bad things that have happened faster and move forward without dwelling on it for too long. You cant affect gods/karma so better to just learn to accept their/its whims. Makes sense i suppose.

Anyways gods or no, i personally think the ancient greek had proper attitude: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helps_those_who_help_themselves
Posted June 25, 2014
Odin promised an end to Frost Giants.Jesus promised an end to wicked people.














I don't see too many Frost Giants around...
Posted June 25, 2014
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Ragnarblackmane: Odin promised an end to Frost Giants.Jesus promised an end to wicked people.

I don't see too many Frost Giants around...
He actually promised this to all the Heat Midgets that we have succesfully eradicated (I don't see anyone left).
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
(2370 posts)