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TrollumThinks: My point - people, even if they don't go to school, learn to understand their own language and the way it is used. To a people whose culture and language involved the use of metaphors, those metaphors wouldn't be tricky things to figure out. They'd just be a phrase with a meaning. Equally, saying '40 days and nights' might be taken by us to mean just that, but to the people of the time it meant 'a long time'
So why believe in anything the bible says? It could mean anything you want.

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TrollumThinks: Depends on whether our souls are eternal or just infinite in the future, I guess. Probably the latter due to God's grace of granting it to us.
Eternity in Hell is not a given though - there's a period of punishment in hell before the final day of judgement, when those unworthy will be cast, along with hell itself, into the lake of fire (which I believe means 'oblivion')
Maybe think about what you said in the previous paragraph?

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TrollumThinks: Oh I see - that's not the same thing. Making the dead come to life is a change in state, not a self-contradictory state. A circle can become a square by moving and shaping its sides. It won't ever be simultaneously a square and a circle. Same for something from nothing (and as I was trying to say before it ate my post - God created the universe from His power, so not strictly from 'nothing')
And how did he create his power? Right, THAT was always there of course...does this mean if we find out that the universe was always there (as in eternal), god ideas will be unnecessary? Why can gods create something from nothing by using their power, but not create more eternal beings using their power? It both seems to be equally nonsensical.
And why is dead and alive a change of state but eternal and not eternal isn't? You can't be more dead and alive at the same time than being a square and circle at the same time.

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TrollumThinks: I see, and I know the atheist view. You can't decide something is an elaborate hoax just by not liking it or not believing it.
That is not what we do. We look at evidence. We have evidence that conmen use religion to scam people. We have no evidence for religions really being true. So it is rational to assume they aren't. Doesn't matter how much we like them, that is YOUR specialty, you like christianity better than other religions.

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TrollumThinks: My point, as for many others, is that some things can be obviously dismissed by looking at their more obvious failings. Christianity doesn't have those.
lol lol lol

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TrollumThinks: I can't dismiss Buddhism out of hand (that doesn't mean I must believe it - faith is a separate issue).
I haven't looked into Mormonism enough, only heard 2nd hand that it contains more historical inaccuracies than can be accounted for. Still, I'm sure they have their explanations for that.
Really and christianity hasn't? Oh that's right, anything that doesn't fit will be declared a metaphore. Why doesn't that work for mormonism?

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TrollumThinks: Comparing Christianity to Scientology is like comparing Science to Harry Potter. The one was admitted by one of its creators to have been made up. The other not.
Oh please, I can make up any number of religions right now and not tell you that I made them up, does that really make a difference? How do you even know the guy who told you that he made it up isn't lying, by command of his god to not tell anyone that its for real? Maybe Darth Vader is really out there and Goerge Lucas just lied when he says it's just a story?
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toxicTom: For a long my "overarching agenda" was to try to understand what the hell is going on. When I was young it was incredibly hard for me to cope with things that I couldn't comprehend rationally. I've always been a very logical, rational person with an insatiable hunger for knowledge and understanding "hat makes the world tick". I read up on astronomy, relativity and quantum physics when I was in my teens. When I encountered... things, that didn't make any sense in this "scientific" view on the world it nearly ripped me apart mentally.
I can relate to this, to the degree that you could just as easily be writing part of my biography as well as your own. I have always wanted to understand more about thing, and for a long time struggled to create a cogent framework to explain everything around me. But then things would occur that punched holes in that, and I would be faced with a "crisis of faith", of sorts. Over time this has evolved into an acceptance that the universe is too complex and unknowable for me to ever glimpse more than a fragment of the truth. Whether this is entirely a philosophy or also a reason-self-preservation response is up for debate.

I was raised nominally Christian but that proved insufficient for my intellectual appetites. I am not content with "just because" explanations, and I understand far too much about history, sociology, mythology, and the nature of language to believe that any aged tale of gods walking the Earth are the unquestionable truth of the matter. Religion does not allow me to escape the flaws in my logical system, it merely replaces that system with one that is closed and unbounded to reality. That is not a solution, that is an evasion.
Relevant.

I have long been aware of the insular nature of religion. Which makes sense, since religion originally was designed to bind small groups or clans together against others, in order to more effectively survive and compete for resources. Now this global span of knowledge threatens that insularity.

I am less optimistic than the author that this alone will be enough to bring humanity forward. The internet also excels at letting people find only what they want to find. So while it is bringing knowledge and freedom to some, it also continues to reinforce and self-isolate others.
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IAmSinistar: Relevant.

I have long been aware of the insular nature of religion. Which makes sense, since religion originally was designed to bind small groups or clans together against others, in order to more effectively survive and compete for resources. Now this global span of knowledge threatens that insularity.

I am less optimistic than the author that this alone will be enough to bring humanity forward. The internet also excels at letting people find only what they want to find. So while it is bringing knowledge and freedom to some, it also continues to reinforce and self-isolate others.
Thanks for the link. And well written comment, especially the second paragraph.
Do do not wholly agree on the insular nature of ALL religions, but this is a specialty of the "book-religions".

I think animistic or natural religions are not insular since they touch something very basic and don't claim truth the way the book-religions do. I think older polytheistic religions also were less definite about "the truth". The Germanic/Nordic pantheon is very obviously a mix of multiple former pantheons that mixed in relatively friendly way (Vanir and Aesir and a this and that). The Greek pantheon is said to have been expanded several times to incorporate neigbouring deities which lead to a strong specialization of the responsibilities.

I think that polytheistic religions, where the deities are practically abstracted and anthropomorphous aspects of human life (war, love, fertility, nature's forces...) are inherently a lot less walled off. I could imagine an old german in Rome or Greece wanting to sacrifice to Freya simply going to Venus or Aphrodite. Or sailor wanting to thank Aegir, bringing his gift to Neptune.

I always loved the following lines from Conan:

Conan: What gods do you pray to?
Subotai: I pray to the four winds... and you?
Conan: To Crom... but I seldom pray to him, he doesn't listen.
Subotai: [chuckles] What good is he then? Ah, it's just as I've always said.
Conan: He is strong! If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, "What is the riddle of steel?" If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me. That's Crom, strong on his mountain!
Subotai: Ah, my god is greater.
Conan: [chuckles] Crom laughs at your four winds. He laughs from his mountain.
Subotai: My god is stronger. He is the everlasting sky! Your god lives underneath him.
[Conan shoots Subotai a skeptical look. Subotai laughs]
Post edited March 06, 2014 by toxicTom
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toxicTom: I think animistic or natural religions are not insular since they touch something very basic and don't claim truth the way the book-religions do. I think older polytheistic religions also were less definite about "the truth". The Germanic/Nordic pantheon is very obviously a mix of multiple former pantheons that mixed in relatively friendly way (Vanir and Aesir and a this and that). The Greek pantheon is said to have been expanded several times to incorporate neigbouring deities which lead to a strong specialization of the responsibilities.
I agree, and should have been more accurate in my terminology. When I said religion earlier, I meant organised religion in the modern sense. I distinguish this from pagan, animist, tribalist, naturalist, and syncretic faiths, which very much draw on the outer world and are inclusive of multiple viewpoints and beliefs. Those kinds of beliefs are enjoying something of a sub rosa renaissance at the moment. I include myself among those adherents, being of a syncretic and animist bent myself.

It is the enclave (or cathedralic) religions which are insular and which inculcate a siege mentality in their followers. And so it is, appropriately, they who find themselves now besieged by a large world grown close.
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IAmSinistar: ...
I totally agree. I just meant to clarify it a little, since very often, when people say "religion" they only mean either "Christian" or "Christian-Islamic-Judaic".

A: Are you religious?
B: Kind of.
A: Super! Let's read the Bible together sometime!
B: I'd rather not.
A: ???

But you put into words a lot nicer than I could. Have to work on my active vocabulary here ;-)
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pH7: I see. No eternal life in heaven or hell then.
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TrollumThinks: Depends on whether our souls are eternal or just infinite in the future, I guess. Probably the latter due to God's grace of granting it to us.
Eternity in Hell is not a given though - there's a period of punishment in hell before the final day of judgement, when those unworthy will be cast, along with hell itself, into the lake of fire (which I believe means 'oblivion')
Does that mean you disagree with soyeong's assertion that something eternal can't have had a beginning? If you do, do you then grant that an eternal god may not have existed until after a specific time/event?

How do you define a soul, what properties does it have, and what do you base it on?

On what do you base the assumption that the lake of fire is oblivion? What makes the soul flamable? Would it even react to an exothermic reaction like fire?
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Soyeong: If something is eternal, then it can't coherently be said to have a beginning or a cause.
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pH7: I see. No eternal life in heaven or hell then.
To be more specific, things with an eternal past can't coherently be said to have a beginning.
On what do you base the assumption that the lake of fire is oblivion? What makes the soul flamable? Would it even react to an exothermic reaction like fire?
Hell is described both as fire and as darkness - both are metaphors.
Post edited March 06, 2014 by Soyeong
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toxicTom: I think there maybe very intelligent people around, but the most vocal (and some of those you linked) often have an intolerable holier-than-though attitude of rightousness and an unhealthy obsession with "debunking the bible debunkers" (I admit that the latter also often suffer from unhealthy obessesion).
I'll admit to having an unhealthy obsession of debunking the Bible debunkers, which keeps me away from my unhealthy obsession with beating the games in my backlog (So many good bundles are hard to pass up, I can't help myself *sob*).

So far I've linked one person who is quick to insult people who use poor arguments and/or use poor research, but he's usually pretty good at keeping that out of his articles. Sometimes people suffer from a severe case of the Dunning–Kruger effect and the only way to get through to them is to shame them, but usually people in this culture are more likely to return the insult than to pause to consider when they need to change, so it's generally better to avoid trying to do that.
They are pretty good at presenting their case and hide the circular reasoning (maybe even from themselves). But in the end, taken apart, it's most of the time the good old "proving the bible by the bible" and (to me) strange reasoning.
Many people think the Bible teaches that it is inerrant, but usually the Bible has been shown reliable through other means first. Other Christians disagree with that interpretation. However, there can still be an historical resurrection even if it turns out that the Bible has an error in a secondary detail.
Well, if the universe was small and Earth at the center - I think this would be considered strong evidence for a purposeful creator to every sane person. But to see the exact opposite, the antithesis, also presented as evidence pro God is remarkably insane.
There was one person who used the vastness of the universe as evidence against God. I linked someone who argued that the size is necessary for the formation of stars and solar systems, which is necessary for the formation of life. This of course does not prove the existence of God, but it does give a reason that God could have for creating a universe of this size if God did exist, so that counters the claim that the vastness of the universe is evidence against God.
As for recommendations for historical studies: Well the easiest recommendation is - read everything ;-).
But for an overview I actually recommend Wikipedia. Now that site has a very careful and sceptical approach to both religion and "alternate" history.
Anonymous authors with unknown credentials writing articles that anyone can edit make Wikipedia one of the first places I would recommend avoiding if you’re interested in serious scholarship.
Also read the books of those "alien visitors" and "alternate history" people. If nothing else, they are highly entertaining. The "gurus" (Butler, von Däniken) of those people are most of the time pretty good storytellers.
Do you mean Erich von Däniken? Searching for "Butler, von Däniken" doesn't come up with much.
I further, with all my heart, recommend reading as many legends, epics, fairytales, sagas, creation myths, religious stories from all around the world as you can get your hands on.
You advised me to read some books about the initial formation of Christianity by non-Christian scholars. I will try looking more into these, but it doesn't answer my question.
Well the Romans usually were pretty pedantic in documenting things. Much of this is lost in time (things like burning down Rome surely didn't help). I beg to differ in that if there was an actual miracle like a resurrection took place, the Romans would have had looked into it and at least written a report.
Jesus never traveled in his adult life outside of Judea, he never held political office, he did not fight in any major battles, and he died the death of a criminal by crucifixion. He was very much a dead nobody who was not worth mentioning as for as the Romans were concerned. Why would someone who was concerned with the political and economic situation of the Roman Empire bother to investigate a bunch of hearsay? He would dismiss it just like most people dismiss the claims of Benny Hinn without investigating him.
You believe, because other people believe too. You're by far not the only one.
The vast majority of things that we think are true have been taught to us by someone else who we consider to be an authority. *shrug*
You believe in a creator, because you can't image another reason for the universe to exist.
I think the Kalam and Aquinas's Five Ways show that the classical God of theism is a logically necessary being that can't not exist. This has nothing to do with what I can or can't imagine.
You believe in the authentic resurrection of Jesus. You believe this because you believe that the bible is a reliable source (reason?),
There are good reasons to think that the Gospels are eyewitness, such as the depth of knowledge about the land that is consistently accurate, which means that we have generally reliable testimonies from people who participated in the events narrated. However, even if we only use those facts that the vast majority of both Christian and non-Christians scholars agree on and apply historical methodology used by professional historians to the various hypotheses, the resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation for those facts.

A resurrection is next to impossible, so I still find it very difficult to believe, but I also find it very difficult to believe that Christianity would have survived its first decade if Jesus had not risen from the dead. So regardless of whether you believe that Jesus rose or not, you believe something that is next to impossible happened. Again, the resurrection of Jesus is the best explanation when evaluated against other hypotheses.
and because your belief in the creator gives you the ground on such a thing is possible.
Huh?
What else?
My own personal experience and the countless testimonies of others who lives were radically changed for the better after converting to Christianity. For instance, there was a Jewish girl who was taken to a concentration, where the rest of her family was killed. She survived, but the most of the rest of her life was consumed by bitterness to the point that it was making her sick. After she converted to Christianity, her health was restored and she was eventually able to visit her old concentration camp with one of her former guards, and forgive him.
Ahem. Do live in the country or city? I grew up in a village (with quite a few sheep). Actually sheep nearly always keep together, because this offers the best protection from predators. Of course there are "lost sheep" like there are lost cows, lost gazelles, lost deers.
Interesting, but I think it still works with the analogy that sheep without a shepherd are prone to wander.
And 1000 years ago, when most people in the world had never ever heard of Jesus, they couldn't be saved? How loving and fair.
Creation itself testifies of a creator and we all are given an innate sense of right and wrong, which indicates a lawgiver that we will be held accountable to. All people know about God, but they suppress the truth. People aren’t condemned for not hearing about Jesus, but because they have rejected the rule of God.
This "I'm a sinner" a concept that totally alien to me. I see myself first and foremost as human. And human means I'm a conscious animal. Consciousness means power and with power comes responsibility. I'm not always living up to this responsibility. In the result be both try to be "better people", you feel by default guilty and always need to repent, while I by default feel innocent and if I do wrong I try to find the reasons that made me fail and make it better next time.
I’m not guilty by default, but because I fail to live up to what I know to be right and wrong.
Good deed? Because they were Christians.
Bad deed? They were no real Christians.
Every Christians fails to life up to what is taught in Christianity, but that does not mean there are no real Christians or that I am any more or less of a Christian than the people who fail more or less than I do. So I didn’t excuse their actions or say they were no real Christians, but I question whether the motivation for their actions comes from a correct understanding of the Bible because you’re not going to find the command to kill your heathen neighbor in the Sermon on the Mount. Christians still have all sorts of influences and motivating factors other than the Bible, so it is wrong to say that everything a Christians does is because of what it teaches. Even good deeds can be done for the wrong reasons.

Furthermore, the things like the Crusades and the Inquisition are often blown of proportion to what actually happened. For instance, only around 5000 people were executed over the 300 years of the Spanish Inquisition. That’s still not a good number, but then you need to look the politics involved and reasons why they were killed, and the fact church courts were more lenient than secular courts.
From my view also pales in comparison, just the other way around.
It like almost every time I see catholic priests mentioned in a secular forum, I get the impression that people think they are a bunch of pedophiles. I’m not excusing it, but it’s ridiculous to focus on that and ignore all of the charity work that priests have done over the centuries. And again, you’re not going to find the Bible encouraging pedophilia anywhere, so their actions were in spite of what the Bible teaches.
Okay then, the bible doesn't encourage pedophilia; what's your excuse for the Crusades.

And the Salem Witch Trials.

And The Inquisition.
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tinyE: Okay then, the bible doesn't encourage pedophilia; what's your excuse for the Crusades.

And the Salem Witch Trials.

And The Inquisition.
No true Scotsma...I mean Christian would ever do such a thing!
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tinyE: Okay then, the bible doesn't encourage pedophilia; what's your excuse for the Crusades.

And the Salem Witch Trials.

And The Inquisition.
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MaximumBunny: No true Scotsma...I mean Christian would ever do such a thing!
True, but I'm still going to get ripped a new one for that post. :D
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tinyE: Okay then, the bible doesn't encourage pedophilia; what's your excuse for the Crusades.

And the Salem Witch Trials.

And The Inquisition.
Are you aware of what started the Crusades or the Inquisition?

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MaximumBunny: No true Scotsma...I mean Christian would ever do such a thing!
I have said a number of times that I'm not denying that they were Christians or that Christians have done bad things
Post edited March 06, 2014 by Soyeong
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IAmSinistar: Can an omnipotent God create a universe where human free will exists, yet which also does not require the existence of evil? In other words, a universe where the physical laws preclude the chances for what we define as evil. An example would be a universe where everyone is an immortal, indestructible energy being, so there is no such thing as murder, violence, physical suffering, deprivation, etc.

I submit that if God cannot create such a universe, then such a being is neither as powerful nor as intelligent as one deserving the appellation of God. If God can create such a universe but did not, then it is likewise not worthy of worship, since it prefers a universe of suffering to one of pure development and exploration and joy.

I am aware that the most likely "out" believers will use are arguments tied to The Fall ("we had this perfect world until we chose to eat of the forbidden fruit", etc). But even that goes back to God's failure to create a universe where this wasn't even an option. And then that same God creates a place of eternal damnation for those who fail in this flawed universe it created.
It Is possible that God could have morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil in the world, and as long as that is possibly true, then it has not been show that there is a contradiction between God and evil. In Christian theism, God's purpose of human history is to bring the maximum number of people freely into His kingdom, to find salvation eternal life. How do we know that that wouldn't require a world that is suffused with natural and moral evil?
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TStael: On your first point, what concrete behavioral examples you might give?
Could you be more specific about what you're asking?
And as to the Finnish fellow - "ask and thou shall be given" - money was what he needed to become more employable and this is what he received.
Money wasn't the subject of that passage.
I think the solidarity of this eventual retired colleague and the generosity of someone who is most likely alike my grandmother, inspired by unassuming but deep Christianity - is this not possibly both Providence and Solidarity?
I think so. There was also a instance where someone had a dream where they were told to sell their house and give the money to people working with street children in Brazil. He did that and took a plane to Brazil where he asked around and was told to go to the base where the couple was staying. The other people there told him about the couple's work, so he left the money with them and left without actually meeting the couple. This happened right at a time where they were they needed to move to a bigger building and had a large financial need.