I think the cross also works well because it's a simple figure. As to what else might have been chosen in different circumstances...feel free to speculate but it's not going to answer any questions.
I didn't choose the symbol - just explaining what it's meant to represent.

I looks like your good idea of how the Bible came about came from something like Zeitgeist or Da Vinci Code that you mistook for credible scholarship. The knowledge about the land in the Gospels concerning agriculture, architecture, botany, culture, economics, geography, language, law, personal names, politics, religion, social stratification, topography, weather, etc., are are types of details that would fall away or be easy to get wrong if we did not have high quality eyewitness accounts. That combined with the incredible quality and number of manuscripts make them the strongest historical accounts in existence.

You sound just like a conspiracy theorist by imagining connections that aren't there. The symbolism has nothing in common.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. Adonis was dated earlier, but the account of his death is dated to the 2nd century. If recurring themes have any significance to Jesus, then you need to show both that they were around before Jesus and that they are more than superficial similarities.

Jesus was beaten, he had a crown of thorns thrust on his head, which caused severe bleeding, and he was scourged beyond recognition. I don't find it difficult to believe in the slightest that he would have had trouble carrying his cross. The breaking of legs happens is they are taking too long to die. Wrapping the body with spices in linen cloths was according the the burial customs of the Jews. The spices were intended to counteract the stench of a decaying corpse, so they would have been unnecessary if Jesus was still alive.

It does not test as well in explanatory power, explanatory scope, plausibility, level of ad hocness, and illumination.

http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.php

One of the main point of that article was that they did a lot of things wrong that they could have easily done right if they were interested in starting a religion, starting with not killing their Messiah. The Jews were expecting a conquering Messiah who would throw off Roman oppression, not one who was subjected to a status degradation ritual and died the death of a criminal. Even if you went with the idea of a king sacrificed for the crops, that would be the end of following them, not the start of a new religion. Furthermore, you're assuming dishonesty on the part of the disciples, which goes against the fact that none of them recanted and many of them were martyred.

Which goes to show that the motivation would have been to align with the emperor cult rather than join a religion that was persecuted by it.

The Romans absorbed many religions as they came into contact with them, but a religion being new to the Romans is not the same as a religion being new. Older religions had a great deal more respect.

The Pax Romana lasted until 180 AD, so that's the earliest you could put the start of the decline, which still around 150 years after Jesus' death.

Theodosius I was over 300 years later. I'm not talking about how Christianity grew once it became well organized; I'm talking about how it survived long enough to get organized in the first place.

Are your trying to get me angry here? I studied five years of ancient history and philosphy. At universities, Dresden and Leipzig, to be precise. You've heard about the library at Leipzig? Where every book ever published in German is available? What are your credentials? (I usually don't ask this, but claim my source was "Da Vinci Code" is a provocation).

You do know that the ancient Egyptians, probably knew about elictricity, that they maybe had light bulbs, that they knew about steam power (but had no steel to make a proper steam engine). That they could perfom brain surgery on living subjects? And all that hundreds or thousands (depending on the dating, that is not that easy with Egypt) of years before the OT was even written down.

You also know that important parts of the OT have been "disproved" to have taken place as stated (i.e. the jewish tribe did this or that). That they probably were just accounts of other people that were incoporated into "official" history?

I'm not saying and have never said, that the Bible is without truth and wisdom. It's an account of how people saw the world when is was narrated (thousands of years(!)) later written down. It's a merit in itself and a great human achievement that this was at all possible. But the people who narrated the stories over this incomprehesible amount of time (think only thousand years back!), and the people who wrote it finally down were just humans and so susceptible to human fallacies, influenced by personal motivations, misunderstandings, pressures from the powers above (leaders, priests) and what not. Stories like the Great Flood have been traced back to the city of Uruk (that's ca. 4000 BCE) and they were old back then. They just involved a different pantheon, but are very similar.

If your want to be blind, so be it. You claim you "want to know", but you really don't.
"The symbolism has nothing in common." I image you sitting there putting your hand to your ears singing "lalala" just because you don't want to hear.

Well. The story of Adonis (including his death) was written down 600 BCE. As I said, take any number of messianic gods. BCE. If you concentrate on the details you can always say "they're not like Jesus". If you don't want to see, keep your eyes shut. "Snow White", "Frau Hulda", "Sleeping Beauty" and "Little Red Riding Hood" also have common themes (Rites of Passage), but are very different fairytales.

Does not cause major blood loss.

Source? The Romans had no intention to kill him.

No. The breaking of legs was done immediately after putting them to the cross. The Romans were no monsters. It was done immediately to the two criminals that were crucified with Jesus. It was not done to Jesus at his request or one of the bystander (gotta check my literature here).

They prepared the body for burial, but then they needed more "spices" than usual. You would presume, that, when they were were dealing with a dead body, they would know what they're doing. (Mk.16:1-2; Lk.24:1.). Myrrh is expicitely stated and served as blood-moving (anti-arthritic) and anti-septic. Perfect for someone who is a) wounded and b) was fixed in a position for a prolonged time.

??
They did things wrong, because they were human. Does that term ring any bells?
Also, the death of the Messiah is part of the ritual. That's the ultimate Symbol. How would you start a religion other than that? (If you mean it).

You don't know a lot about the Roman empire, do you? I won't read the history books to you.

I already answered that. Romans != Roman establishement. You really have a "Us-and-Them" problem. "I'm individual but they're all alike."

The econonmy declined from 50 BCE on. That was being felt by most people. The society declined from the days of Julius Caesar that's even before Christ. The end of the Pax Romana was a symptom of the progressing "fall", not the reason. May I repeat that you know nothing about Roman history?

Post got too long...

Yeah well. Then start reading some books. And by non-Christian scholars. It's not very well documented, but not as bad as one might think. One could think, if there was an actual resurrection, ascension, there should be more material than like a handful of people wrting it down decades or a hundred years later from hearsay...

I'm don't know if it makes sense to takes this any further. You claim you want to know but dismiss other people's work (it's quite an efford to get into all this, you know) easily and without solid ground. Also, when I invited you that I would tell what makes me tick via PM (I won't go public with this), your didn't respond. You "wonder" what may have happened to me, but you don't want to know.

You believe in the resurrection because the was a creator. You believe in the creator, because there was a resurrection.

I believe, on the other hand, that you can be the same good person (I do not doubt you mean good) without all the Jesus/God stuff. I am no sheep, and neither should you be.

You've been patient and reasonable for most of the discussion. Thanks for that. Your last post was an insult. I hope you can see that.

What's your problem? Trying to prove "ancient cultures" must have been primitive, because "we are better"?

The light bulbs are a mere hypothesis based on inscriptions and images that totally make sense if they mean somthing like that, and require a lot of interpretation if they don't.
If they used gas or could create a vacuum is not known. We only have pictures. The biggests problem stems from if they could have created a wire that was thin enough to glow.

As for the current, there is archeological evidence of batteries (that even held 0.4V Volts when found) based on chemical reactions, not much unlike the ones you can buy today. Also the missing grime (from torches etc) in the pyramids and tombs predating the grave robbers is kind of a miracle. Elecric light could explain this but there's no hard proof for that.

As for "trepanation" I have no idea what that is. I only know that there's proof for people (probably Pharao family members among them) having their head opened and living afterwards. Mummification has certain advantages.

I can ask a friend who is into ancient egypt studies, if you have any more questions.

According to Tomb Raider they also had mechanical wind-up beetles that could set off booby traps.

That adds absolutely nothing to this conversation but this is a game forum after all and I felt the need to mention a game at least once in this thread was appropriate.

You are absoluty right, that's why this

[Code redeemed]

I kinda find it fitting.

That was actually on my wishlist. XD Not anymore. Thank you Tom.

I wouldn't have guessed ;-)

What's my problem? I have no problem. I find the prospect of ancient technology far more interesting than the present subject, so I chimed in.

But of course ancient cultures were more primitive in terms of technology than we are. Generally, once we gain useful knowledge, we tend to keep it. And so technology typically steadily advances. That said, I'm not biased against ancient civilizations. I expect they were clever enough, just lacking the amassed knowledge that we have today.

Trepanation is carving holes in the skull as some form of surgery. It has been happening for thousands of years.

Anyway, even if you have a thin wire and current enough to make it glow, it will burn away almost immediately in the air. S'why I asked about the gas. Sorry if I've cheesed you off. I actually admire your patience.

edit:
Alone, that 0.4V rating isn't too meaningful. Consider that I can generate a few thousand volts by shuffling my feet on the carpet in dry weather. Connect me to any kind of load, though, and that charge is instantly gone!

There has been no actual light-bulb been found. So it's all just speculation, that would explain a few things, not more.

That 0.4V is meaningful, if you bury a Duracell, and thousands of years later there's still "juice". I know that voltage alone means nothing. Cattle wire also has abount 14,000V, but almost no current. Otherwise the cows were fried ;-) (the thought kinda make sme hungry).

Sorry for not being clear. If you're willing to grant that there is a plane of reality that science can't look into, then it is possible that the things we label as supernatural could belong to this plane.
Again, there are many instances of women who held important positions of leadership in Christianity. That's not to say there has never been abuse, but was that because of what the Bible teaches or in spite of it?
There are several patriarchal cultures that have evolved independently over long periods of time, so I'm not sure that there's an easy answer for that.
Theodosius I banned pagan worship in general.
No Roman women lost the right to divorce from their husbands. It was acceptable for married pagan men to visit brothels, but it was not acceptable for Jewish married men.
Witches could be involved in those things, but that's not what makes someone a witch.
Only Jews are required to follow ritual purity laws, but yes, a women that menstruates was one of the many things that could make someone unclean. However, it was not a sin to be made unclean, it just means that they had to ritually cleanse themselves.
In my experience bills often contain multiple things, such as helping poor old grandmothers and something someone opposes. They reject the bill because it contains something they are opposed to or because they think there is a better way to help grandmothers and their opponent inevitably uses their rejection of the bill as proof that they hate grandmothers. I don't know if that's the case because I have no background knowledge, but even it it's not the case, adding politics to Christianity doesn't always still equal Christianity.
I didn't say there was no reward system; I said there was no reward system for having bad things happen to you. Trollum is correct that there is a heaven and I think he's clarified what the cross symbolizes.
God is sovereign and has the right to give and take life as he pleases. God being just and loving does not mean that nothing bad will happen to anyone.
Again, if you know what someone is guilty of and you know what punishment someone who has done that deserves, then your wrath does not prevent justice.
Your life essentially counts as your trial, where you were given plenty of opportunity to confess and repent.

It doesn't work like that in Germany. Someone proposes a law or a change of law, the parliaments either agree or disagree. If one of them agrees and the other doesn't there's a round of negotiations. (put to put it very simple). If they didn't like the wording, they could have come up with another proposition. But to block it for 24 years is just excessive.

Well people die young or old, suddenly or slowly, and this is either by "God's plan" or chance. Some people die before having the chance to sin (where's free will there?), some are given "extra time" to repent. Some sin and get hit by a car the next moment. Even if you leave out God's own doing from the scripts (maybe metaphoric) and even if you leave out what people do to each other (free will), life just isn't fair for many people, starting where they're born.
I do not know how you are able to bridge the gap between this and having an all-powerful, just and loving god in your head. In German we call this "geistiger Spagat" ("doing the mental splits").
I know I can't do this.

Also, if you look at history, the deeds done by Christians, the persecution of pagans, witchhunts, crusades, the colonization and conquest of the world including the destruction of whole cultures and all the wars between Christians themselves over matters of who is the "true" Christian, I don't know how you can want to belong to this group. "Thou shalt not kill" and "And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field" are laws that are supposed to be "set in stone", but they're constantly broken.
Now you may answer, those were not "true christians", they were "misguided". They would certainly not agree. Now you either have to claim to be "better" than them, being a "true christian" and they're not. Or you have to agree with them that the ten commandments are invalid when dealing with "heathens", and being born and raised in the wrong culture justifies making one fair game. How do you "do the mental splits" of "I'm good person" and "I belong to group of people with a history of violence and bloodshed"?

Genuinely, I do think we simply have a different way to feel and think about spirituality, which is fine by me.

Though, surely, grace given and received may not be equal, shortchanging the Grace we have been given as in being mean, cruel or bigoted to our fellow men in my view is low. Shall not God love all that has been created? If you wish, pray qualify behavioral examples you find to be so.

I have a similar story from Finland I read about today, where a person unemployed in northern Finland was unable to afford a training course quite some distance away from home town - and two private individuals came to his aid for a total of 1,500 Euros reading his story in papers.

Possibly they are atheists, possibly they are faithful - but what matters to me most is the human compassion, and the impact it can have to help others. I would not be unproud of these persons if they were allowing their left hand be unaware what the right was doing, though.