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iippo: after i eat my sandwiches the plate will have nothing on it - but does the sandwiches existence cease?
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jamotide: I'm sure Seyong could tell you how your sandwich is eternal and is therefor god, but I can't manage it.
I can imagine he would say that.
Post edited February 06, 2014 by pimpmonkey2382
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TrollumThinks: You said "proving their god actually said these things," (emphasis mine).
Anyone can say "I am God made flesh" - doesn't make them our God. Our God is the creator of all things. Ergo, if we can prove that our God said those things, if simultaneously proves He exists.
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jamotide: Err that is the exact opposite of "ergo", more like nogo. Don't you realise the problems there? You can only prove that someone said those things. Proving that he is a god is a different proof.
I'll try one more time: He didn't say "Proving that someone said "I am God"" He said "Proving that their God said those things" -> now do you see? If we prove that Our God said those things we must prove that He said them.
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TrollumThinks: Now stop dodging the question and give a straightforward reply to my previous simple points.
I replied to them, it didn't seem to interest you. What does pimpmonkey have, that I don't have? *whine*
I know you did, and thank you. Sorry for not acknowledging it directly. You gave a nice straightforward answer, which is refreshing and at least you're also engaging in a debate. I just wanted to see if pimpmonkey could do so too.
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TrollumThinks: such as?
Not eating swine, not getting tattoos, not shaving, you know things even christians can laugh at.
Yep - except that's hardly quoting what was written. In fact, that's exactly the kind of 'summary' that I'm arguing against. You give the 'conclusion' without showing where you got it from. My point was about understanding the meaning from the text.
Not eating swine was probably sensible at the time - diseases can more easily spread from one carnivore/omnivore to another (I'm told, please correct me if I've misunderstood), and pigs are genetically closer to humans than cows. Considering the hot climate, pork can quickly go off. (Just my theory on why it was forbidden) Eating pork was later made 'clean' by Jesus in a vision to Peter.
The quote about tattoos, I believe, is the one dealing with marking your flesh to remember the dead, not tattoos in general. Again, an exact quote would be nice so I can look at the original text.
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jamotide: Err that is the exact opposite of "ergo", more like nogo. Don't you realise the problems there? You can only prove that someone said those things. Proving that he is a god is a different proof.
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TrollumThinks: I'll try one more time: He didn't say "Proving that someone said "I am God"" He said "Proving that their God said those things" -> now do you see? If we prove that Our God said those things we must prove that He said them.

I replied to them, it didn't seem to interest you. What does pimpmonkey have, that I don't have? *whine*
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TrollumThinks: I know you did, and thank you. Sorry for not acknowledging it directly. You gave a nice straightforward answer, which is refreshing and at least you're also engaging in a debate. I just wanted to see if pimpmonkey could do so too.

Not eating swine, not getting tattoos, not shaving, you know things even christians can laugh at.
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TrollumThinks: Yep - except that's hardly quoting what was written. In fact, that's exactly the kind of 'summary' that I'm arguing against. You give the 'conclusion' without showing where you got it from. My point was about understanding the meaning from the text.
Not eating swine was probably sensible at the time - diseases can more easily spread from one carnivore/omnivore to another (I'm told, please correct me if I've misunderstood), and pigs are genetically closer to humans than cows. Considering the hot climate, pork can quickly go off. (Just my theory on why it was forbidden) Eating pork was later made 'clean' by Jesus in a vision to Peter.
The quote about tattoos, I believe, is the one dealing with marking your flesh to remember the dead, not tattoos in general. Again, an exact quote would be nice so I can look at the original text.
They would have known nothing about the genetics of well...anything at that time. So I highly doubt that was part of the problem.
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pimpmonkey2382: Well then I'll let lawrence krauss speak for me. :)

Next, if one is going to frame the argument scientifically, as I argued is essential when discussing empirical evidence, which Craig later took great pains to disavow, one must point out that in science when one is trying to explain and predict data, one tries to explore all possible physical causes for some effect before resorting to the supernatural. Happily it is precisely this progress in our natural philosophy that ended such religious atrocities as the burning of witches. In each and every case the actual syllogism that one ended up with was:

1. Craig either doesn’t understand how something could happen, or instead believes that events happened that confirmed his pre-existing belief system.
2. In the absence of understanding physical causes or exploring alternatives, this implies evidence for the existence of God.
3. Therefore there is evidence that God exists.

This is what I framed as the “God of the Gaps” argument and I continue to view, upon reflection, most of the claims of Craig as falling in this well-known theological trap.
Great - sounds logical enough for me. If those are indeed Craig's arguments, then they suggest a logical leap. Of course, I asked you to quote a specific argument from Craig, not Krauss' rebuttal of a general idea of his argument.
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pimpmonkey2382: They would have known nothing about the genetics of well...anything at that time. So I highly doubt that was part of the problem.
No, but God would have - hence telling them not to eat it ;)
Post edited February 06, 2014 by TrollumThinks
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pimpmonkey2382: Well then I'll let lawrence krauss speak for me. :)

Next, if one is going to frame the argument scientifically, as I argued is essential when discussing empirical evidence, which Craig later took great pains to disavow, one must point out that in science when one is trying to explain and predict data, one tries to explore all possible physical causes for some effect before resorting to the supernatural. Happily it is precisely this progress in our natural philosophy that ended such religious atrocities as the burning of witches. In each and every case the actual syllogism that one ended up with was:

1. Craig either doesn’t understand how something could happen, or instead believes that events happened that confirmed his pre-existing belief system.
2. In the absence of understanding physical causes or exploring alternatives, this implies evidence for the existence of God.
3. Therefore there is evidence that God exists.

This is what I framed as the “God of the Gaps” argument and I continue to view, upon reflection, most of the claims of Craig as falling in this well-known theological trap.
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TrollumThinks: Great - sounds logical enough for me. If those are indeed Craig's arguments, then they suggest a logical leap. Of course, I asked you to quote a specific argument from Craig, not Krauss' rebuttal of a general idea of his argument.
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pimpmonkey2382: They would have known nothing about the genetics of well...anything at that time. So I highly doubt that was part of the problem.
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TrollumThinks: No, but God would have - hence telling them not to eat it ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Me8Y-HmRo

Automatically assuming there's a "beginning", thus "god" had to do it. Yet claiming he's not using god of the gaps.
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Tallima: <stuff>
I'd like to thank you for the last couple of posts - made interesting reading and helped settle something in me. And I agree with all that you said.
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pimpmonkey2382: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9Me8Y-HmRo

Automatically assuming there's a "beginning", thus "god" had to do it. Yet claiming he's not using god of the gaps.
sadly youtube is blocked here in China (I can sometimes get it to work via a proxy, I'll give it a try later - off to work now).
Post edited February 06, 2014 by TrollumThinks
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SweatyGremlins: Yes, also in theology (scientists hate this lol) but that wasn't my point. You can trace the roots of science to various disciplines but it does not operate on them. Science is observational. For example, gravity will not change in behavior regardless of the philosophical or religious views of the observer.
It's true that gravity will not change behavior, but that is a philosophical truth rather than a scientific one. Science tells us about things that are observable, measurable, and repeatable, but it does not tell us about whether the future will be like the present.
Again this is misleading. The multiverse just solves a mathematical quirk and is based on a simple observation, our universe (we assume) exists. If one universe exists are there any limits regarding other universes existing? (not as a rhetorical question) Our universe is evidence that a universe can exist.
That's like asking if matter exists, are there any limits to the forms that matter can take? Of course it's possible for matter to take the form of a shark riding a unicorn, but contrary to memes, that doesn't invalidate anyone's argument.
As to the issue of "logical necessity." It is actually because of logical necessity that theories such as the mutliverse are being proposed. Again, it solves a mathematical quirk relating to the laws that govern our universe.
Logical necessity does not mean possible solution. If an argument has true premises and a valid form, then the conclusion follows through logical necessity.
As I understand it, cosmologists are not pushing multiverse theory as fact, it is just one potential solution. However, that one idea seems to be misrepresented by theologians quite often, at times to imply hipocracy.
http://www.reasonablefaith.org/multiverse-and-the-design-argument

The article explains the problems better than I can, but one problem he has is if our universe is but one member of an infinite collection of randomly varying universes, then it’s overwhelmingly more probable that we should be observing a much different universe than that which we in fact observe.
On one level, of course faith would seem rational thousands of years ago, this was the period where faith explained existence. In modern times science fills that need so faith seems unrational. My point however wasn't on the use of the word or even if faith is rational or not. Simply, it honestly doesn't matter. Religious people are quite capable of accepting scientific findings regardless of the implications since God exists outside of our experience. The recent revival of apologetics is ultimately unnecessary, they don't need to explain their faith.
Science and faith have never been in conflict with each other. Many of the prominent scientists throughout history were theists who saw studying Creation as as something that confirmed their religious views rather than something that opposed them. The Bible takes God's existence as granted, so the faith it talks about has never been about believing whether or not God exists, but about trusting God. Trust is rational because it relies on using reason to interpret evidence. Science tells us much about things that are observable, measurable, and repeatable, but it tells us nothing about whether or not we should trust God. Faith always needs an explanation, otherwise there would be no reason why anyone had faith, so apologetics in this area are there to combat this recent illogical misconception of it.
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Fenixp: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'
Maxim 24. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a big gun.
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TrollumThinks: Great - sounds logical enough for me. If those are indeed Craig's arguments, then they suggest a logical leap. Of course, I asked you to quote a specific argument from Craig, not Krauss' rebuttal of a general idea of his argument.
He's blatantly misrepresenting Craig's arguments. For instance, in the video that he linked, Craig doesn't assume that the universe had a beginning, but gives scientific evidence for it.

"All I'm using scientific evidence for is empirical support for the second premise that the universe began to exist."
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TrollumThinks: Great - sounds logical enough for me. If those are indeed Craig's arguments, then they suggest a logical leap. Of course, I asked you to quote a specific argument from Craig, not Krauss' rebuttal of a general idea of his argument.
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Soyeong: He's blatantly misrepresenting Craig's arguments. For instance, in the video that he linked, Craig doesn't assume that the universe had a beginning, but gives scientific evidence for it.

"All I'm using scientific evidence for is empirical support for the second premise that the universe began to exist."
Then what does he fall back on assuming it's true? God.
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pimpmonkey2382: Then what does he fall back on assuming it's true? God.
Go ahead and quote where he assumes God exist.
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pimpmonkey2382: Then what does he fall back on assuming it's true? God.
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Soyeong: Go ahead and quote where he assumes God exist.
Well he's a christian, so that's a safe assumption.
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Soyeong: Go ahead and quote where he assumes God exist.
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pimpmonkey2382: Well he's a christian, so that's a safe assumption.
/facepalm

The sooner you stop assuming that Christians assume everything, the better.
Post edited February 06, 2014 by Soyeong
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pimpmonkey2382: Well he's a christian, so that's a safe assumption.
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Soyeong: /facepalm
The sooner you stop assuming that Christians assume everything, the better.
A christian who doesn't assume god exists...wouldn't be a christian. :)


I also don't believe he was ever an atheist either, which would also make him a liar.
Post edited February 06, 2014 by pimpmonkey2382
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Soyeong: /facepalm
The sooner you stop assuming that Christians assume everything, the better.
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pimpmonkey2382: A christian who doesn't assume god exists...wouldn't be a christian. :)

I also don't believe he was ever an atheist either, which would also make him a liar.
Case in point, you need to stop making that assumption.