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pimpmonkey2382: How do you produce evidence for nothing? That's like asking me produce evidence for you having no sixth toe.
When you say there is no evidence for a belief, you are saying that belief is uncaused, because the cause of the belief is what makes it clear, indicates, or proves it to be true, and is evidence by definition. All you need to do to back your claim is show an example of how it's possible to form an uncaused belief.
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pimpmonkey2382: How do you produce evidence for nothing? That's like asking me produce evidence for you having no sixth toe.
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Soyeong: When you say there is no evidence for a belief, you are saying that belief is uncaused, because the cause of the belief is what makes it clear, indicates, or proves it to be true, and is evidence by definition. All you need to do to back your claim is show an example of how it's possible to form an uncaused belief.
It doesn't need evidence. It just needs to be believed.
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Brasas: The dilemma is whether existence is accidental or intended.
I assume you believe the universe is not eternal. If so, do you consider its origin to have been accidental or intended?
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Soyeong: snip... either the universe has a finite past, or something caused the present state of the universe to be something other than heat death. If the universe has a finite past, then it had a beginning, and something caused it. ...
Ok. Thanks for confirming. I will assume your hypothetical to be a categorical: for you the universe had a beginning and was intended.

Now to confirm your tolerance as regards the atheist options.
Do you admit it is possible, even if you believe it to be false, for the universe to have spontaneously and accidentaly become?

PS: Please avoid using the word caused unqualified, it is confusing - both accidents and intentions cause happenings through whatever causal mechanisms (physical, biological, etc).
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pimpmonkey2382: How do you produce evidence for nothing? That's like asking me produce evidence for you having no sixth toe.
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Soyeong: When you say there is no evidence for a belief, you are saying that belief is uncaused, because the cause of the belief is what makes it clear, indicates, or proves it to be true, and is evidence by definition. All you need to do to back your claim is show an example of how it's possible to form an uncaused belief.
Are you Korean? Because that would explain why you so strongly believe in the bible. The Korean community in the USA is very very Christian. If you weren't Christian, you'd be an outcast. I imagine the thought of being an outcast is horrible for you so maybe you simply don't want to believe in anything else other than what you believe now?
Post edited February 03, 2014 by monkeydelarge
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s23021536: (JUMPS UP AND DOWN) Oi I have a question:

It seems to me that there are a fair number of atheists, or at least irreligious, people on the forum. Now, of course it depends on where you are in the world, but I think it is perhaps rather likely (or not very unlikely) that you might form part of a minority in your extended circle of friends and family. So my question is this: How do you your religious family members and friends feel about your absence of faith and having you around? Do they know? Are you a closeted atheist as it were? I wouldn't blame anyone if they were. I once read a study (forgot the name: something along the line of "Do you trust in atheists?") in which the study presented evidence towards the statement that atheists are the least trusted group in America, and I don't think it is restricted to America. Its not an absolutely damning study though : the sample sizes were quite small - most studies were with groups of 150ish people.
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Rohan15: They think I am an asshole.
Sorry to hear that dude :( That is my single greatest criticism of religion and the church : intolerance. Thankfully it is not universal from what I've seen. There are a fair number of religious people who are completely tolerant towards views that are different from their own.
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Rohan15: They think I am an asshole.
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s23021536: Sorry to hear that dude :( That is my single greatest criticism of religion and the church : intolerance. Thankfully it is not universal from what I've seen. There are a fair number of religious people who are completely tolerant towards views that are different from their own.
It's great being almost 20 and told most of your life as an atheist you are wrong and it makes you a bad person. It's also great I can choose to not talk to these people at all.
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Soyeong: Verification is not a perfect process because it never removes the possibility of being wrong; it only reduces the probability of that. As such, all we're doing by verification is increasing the probability or our confidence that it is true. If we can't have knowledge of things that are probably true, then you're throwing out huge chunks of scientific knowledge. We can have a very high degree of confidence that the bridge will be safe, but we can't ever know that with 100% certainty, so when we choose to cross the bridge, we are trusting or having faith that it is safe.
So what is your point, knowledge is irrelevant? Are we going epistomological now?

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Soyeong: See this is the non-religious people's problem, incorrectly assuming that we think scientists getting something wrong means that that anything else is true.
Uhmm yes very snappy but stupid, religious people really say that! It is not my assumption. Tide goes in, tide goes out, can't explain it! Remember that?

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Soyeong: I'm not sure why you're still confusing lawful capital punishment for someone's actions with murder. A dictatorship is an absolute overbearing power where the people have no freedom. You've been given freedom to accept or reject God and heaven and hell are essentially God giving you want you asked for. If God were a dictator, then he would force people to believe what He wanted them to believe.
Oh we have a choice now? Ten commandments out of the window? Btw who makes those capital punishment laws again which mean that it is not murder? The penalty in many religions for not accepting gods is usually death, some choice!


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Soyeong: I've already explain to you that a scientist doing experiments and then you trusting what they say to be factual is not in any way circular reasoning. It's part of the normal process of learning. Your second example is little more than your fanciful imagination of how religious people think. It's so easy to poke holes in straw man arguments, isn't it?
Yes very easy and amusing, keep em coming. I have already explained to you that scientists don;t trust each other, they try to disprove each others claims. That is why you are using circular reasoning when you don't examine the bridge for yourself, and that is why I am not because I don't have to trust scientists. I am not sure why this is so hard for you to understand.


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DrYaboll: So you, as a religious person, dont believe in science? If you do, please restrain from making such statements, as it is absurd, doesnt make any sense, and is contradictory.
Well he claims to be agnostic, but I'm starting to get doubts about that.

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Soyeong: If you're given an infinite past, then it makes no sense to say that something is possible, but that it wouldn't happen. The heat death of the universe is possible, therefore it happened sometime in the infinite past.
How the fuck do you know?

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Soyeong: So either the universe has a finite past, or something caused the present state of the universe to be something other than heat death. If the universe has a finite past, then it had a beginning, and something caused it. Either way, there is something that is responsible for causing the present state of the universe. I do not see how this could be an accidental cause.
Why not?



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Soyeong: Could be, though I don't think it's relevant to the question at hand. There are no known physical causes, but that does not mean there is no physical cause, and even if there were no physical cause, there it does not eliminate the possibility of an intelligent non-physical cause that we are unable to use science to detect. If it doesn't eliminate that possibility, then to use it against a proof for an intelligent non-physical cause is begging the question.
Man you really are talentied at using lots of words to say nothing. I mean what are you trying to say here? If you have proof for an intelligent nonphysical cause then wtf is the problem.

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Soyeong: Theists aren't any less interested in seeking the truth and aren't any less willing to admit they are wrong.
lol lol lol best joke of the thread so far


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Soyeong: If Christianity is false, then I want to know. If Christianity is true, then I'm sure you'd want to know.
It is false, get over it. There is no invisible guy who doesn't want you to be a homo.

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Soyeong: Only if the "truth" upholds your non-religious views. Otherwise you look the other way. There are scholarly books about the evidence for Christianity and won't even get your head out of the ground long enough to even admit there is evidence.
Exactly, because there is none.
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monkeydelarge: This level of skepticism is why I'm not wearing a tin foil hat and don't believe the tooth fairy takes the the teeth of children and gives them money in return.
It's perfectly rational to be skeptical of whether Jesus performed miracles, but you don't have to take your skepticism to the level where you refuse to try objectively examine any historical evidence even related to Jesus. A common line among people who think Jesus was a myth is to compare him to other gods, such as Horus, and say that Horus was born of a virgin, had 12 disciples, and had all of these other traits in common, so Jesus was copied. The problem is that if you actually look at what an ancient historian, such as Plutarch, has to say about Horus, it nothing in common with these lists of so-called similarities. The problem is they just unquestioningly accept anything that supports their views and don't bother to take history seriously.

Don't just claim Tacitus could be faked, therefore he's faked. The general consensus among both Christian and non-Christian historians is that Tacitus is authentic, so don't just dismiss him to blindly hold on to your beliefs. If you think Tacitus was altered, then show evidence for that. It's not enough to think Jesus was a myth, you need to show how it's even plausible for Christianity to have taken off within its historical environment if that were the case. Going by the historical evidence, I think it would been next to impossible for Christianity to have survived its inception if Jesus had not risen from the dead, so the idea that Christianity survived its inception while being based on someone who didn't exist is just really absurd.

There is a mountain of historical evidence for the events in the Bible, and no historical evidence around the tooth fairy, so anyone who has studied the history shouldn't find it difficult to figure out why Christians believe in God, but don't believe in the the tooth fairy.
I believe what I've seen, what I've experienced and what is backed up by science. Is that so wrong?
Nothing is wrong with that, but you should also believe what is supported by history.
I do wonder, if other figures from history truly existed.
Your welcome to do that, but I'd advise looking at what expert histories have to say before drawing any conclusions.
You do know, that people are capable of lying or exaggerating, right?
Of course, but that does not mean we should assume a priori that they are.
People also enjoy writing fiction. Two thousand years from now, if they find a capsule with comic books, they might think Batman was real. OR if they found a time capsule with a magazine about celebrities, they might think Justin Bieber is a god, we worshiped.
The genre of the Gospels is historiography. Lots of people today enjoy writing fiction, but that doesn't tell us about whether 1st century Palestinian Jews enjoyed writing fiction. For that, you'd have to look at other works that were written at the time. Furthermore, if they were writing a work of fiction, then there would have been a lot of things they could have easily done differently that would have made it a lot easier to find converts, starting with not have the central figure die a humiliating death generally reserved for criminals.
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Soyeong: When you say there is no evidence for a belief, you are saying that belief is uncaused, because the cause of the belief is what makes it clear, indicates, or proves it to be true, and is evidence by definition. All you need to do to back your claim is show an example of how it's possible to form an uncaused belief.
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pimpmonkey2382: It doesn't need evidence. It just needs to be believed.
It true for any beliefs in general. You don't randomly have beliefs pop into your head uncaused, and neither does anyone else.
Post edited February 03, 2014 by Soyeong
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Soyeong: There is a mountain of historical evidence for the events in the Bible, and no historical evidence around the tooth fairy, so anyone who has studied the history shouldn't find it difficult to figure out why Christians believe in God, but don't believe in the the tooth fairy.
So why don;t they believe in all the other gods for which there are "mountains of historical evidence"? The tooth fairy is just a joke to make you realise how ridiculous your position is. But if you want to nitpick just substitute it for any other manmade god idea.
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Soyeong: When you say there is no evidence for a belief, you are saying that belief is uncaused, because the cause of the belief is what makes it clear, indicates, or proves it to be true, and is evidence by definition. All you need to do to back your claim is show an example of how it's possible to form an uncaused belief.
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monkeydelarge: Are you Korean? Because that would explain why you so strongly believe in the bible. The Korean community in the USA is very very Christian. If you weren't Christian, you'd be an outcast. I imagine the thought of being an outcast is horrible for you so maybe you simply don't want to believe in anything else other than what you believe now?
I used to play a MMO called NexusTK that had an rp based on ancient mythological Korea. The name is Korean, but I am not. I was not aware that Christian belief was so strong among Koreans here. It is a shame that anyone is an outcast for having different religious beliefs.
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Rohan15: It's great being almost 20 and told most of your life as an atheist you are wrong and it makes you a bad person. It's also great I can choose to not talk to these people at all.
It's a shame that you were told that.
Post edited February 03, 2014 by Soyeong
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Soyeong: It's a shame that you were told that.
Yes it is, but why do you sympathise? It is a strong tenet of christian faith that unbelievers are unworthy of the book of life and will therefor spend eternity in the lake of fire. So don't you think it is beneficial to warn atheists of this, I ( mean if you really believe all these "mountains of historical evidence").
Post edited February 03, 2014 by jamotide
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jamotide: Yes it is, but why do you sympathise? It is a strong tenet of christian faith that unbelievers are unworthy of the book of life and will therefor spend eternity in the lake of fire.
They actually believe that everyone is unworthy and that their (being Christian) only redeeming factor is 'saving grace' - undeserved forgiveness and acceptance.

My problem with that is when certain types turn humility into self deprecation and go into the whole "we're worthless pieces of crap" spiels. They like to take everything to unnecessary extremes, finding the 'fundamental' ideas and amplifying them a million-fold. Very unbecoming.
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Leucius: EDIT: I knew it wouldn't go over that well.
Evidently you don't "get" much at all. Anti-theism is where its at bro.
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Soyeong: It's a shame that you were told that.
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jamotide: Yes it is, but why do you sympathise? It is a strong tenet of christian faith that unbelievers are unworthy of the book of life and will therefor spend eternity in the lake of fire. So don't you think it is beneficial to warn atheists of this, I ( mean if you really believe all these "mountains of historical evidence").
condemning the sin is encouraged, condemning the sinner is not.
Christians are supposed to be kind to sinners and show them a better way...not make them feel like crap.
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iippo: The main problem i have with religions personally, is that people take to take the books, clerics and what nots at face value way to easily.
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Soyeong: I think taking things at face value is a problem that part of the human condition rather than something unique to theists. It's always good for people to be willing to critically examine what they are being told and to be willing to reevaluate what they believe, especially on matters that are most important to them.
It's funny - I have the same problem with (vocally opposing) atheists taking the books at face value. Worse, it's an English translation of the books with no regard for the original languages and cultures in which they were written. Thus they wrongly imply nuances of language and when that doesn't work, they just take it all literally.