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General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 01, 2014
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Krypsyn: An 'a-' before a word means "the total absence thereof". If one has zero belief in something, then they implicitly disbelieve it.
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Alfie3000: Atheism is the default position. You're not born a theist.
Wow really? How can you not believe in something by default without even knowing what that thing is to begin with? Does that mean i am akrakorian by default, without even knowing what/who krakorian is/are to begin with? Won't it be wiser to knowledge my self first about krakorian, then soot for a position - be that positive or negative? When you are born you are without knowledge, you are not in disbelief of what you don't know, makes no sense...
Post edited February 01, 2014 by nadenitza
Posted February 01, 2014
Babies aren't born with a religious belief. Sorry.
Posted February 01, 2014
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Alfie3000: Atheism is the default position. You're not born a theist.
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nadenitza: Wow really? How can you not believe in something by default without even knowing what that thing is to begin with? Does that mean i am akrakorian by default, without even knowing what/who krakorian is/are to begin with? Won't it be wiser to knowledge my self first about krakorian, then soot for a position - be that positive or negative? When you are born you are without knowledge, you are not in disbelief of what you don't know, makes no sense...
Babies are a blank slate, genetic inheritance aside. Religion is a cultural construct and is therefore learned. You could just as easily teach a child that tree sloths are evil dictators who rule the universe, and every time we see one we need to sacrifice a virgin.
Post edited February 01, 2014 by scampywiak
Posted February 01, 2014
To tell a baby they have to be fearful of a non existant god or they won't get into a happy place in the sky is one of the most immoral, prickish, lying things I've ever seen in my life. To make a baby or kid fearful is cruel.
Posted February 01, 2014
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pimpmonkey2382: Babies aren't born with a religious belief. Sorry.
Yes, and they don't know that. Not knowing about religious beliefs does not make you atheist, atheist is a position you make with a knowledge concerning religious beliefs. How can you be considered anything without that knowledge?
Posted February 01, 2014
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pimpmonkey2382: Babies aren't born with a religious belief. Sorry.
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nadenitza: Yes, and they don't know that. Not knowing about religious beliefs does not make you atheist, atheist is a position you make with a knowledge concerning religious beliefs. How can you be considered anything without that knowledge?
Babies aren't born with a theist belief thus they are atheist at birth. It's their parents who then make them a theist.
Posted February 01, 2014
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Soyeong: What's that suppose to mean?
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MaximumBunny: It means that you have no idea what the torah is and you're just Christianizing the whole affair instead of trying to understand it. :P

The Christian understanding of Judaism is not what Judaism is. It's far from it. "They just don't know that Jesus is their messiah yet/missed the boat/are unfulfilled" is the typical, very incorrect view from Christians who never took the time to learn about it. Here is a question that can help you think about it:

Take Jesus out of the equation. The New Testament never existed - *poof* and gone from time and space. None of it ever happened. What is now required of you? What are your religious goals now, and what are the complications that you have without everything you believe that the New Testament provided?

It's not an easy question for a Christian to answer correctly simply because...they don't take the time to learn about it of course. It's always easier for them to assume things with their heads in the clouds or make up personal interpretations. Those types of Christians are unable to answer simple questions like "What is the fear of the LORD?" You probably can't either off of the top of your head. You have to dig deeper to find the answer instead of the 'response'. :)
It really would be great if you would stop presuming to know everything about what I think. There are Jewish believers who have expressed the same thing about Jewish non-believers, so I'm not just expressing just my own thoughts. The purpose Torah gives us freedom by teaching us how to live righteously before God, but at the same time in convicts of us our sin and points to our need for a savior.
Posted February 01, 2014
Wow, is this thread still going strong? I do not know how people can debate about Religion or Politics for so damn long. Even reading one bible thumper post puts me into a catatonic state. Any more than that and I would surely want to put a gun in my mouth.
Posted February 01, 2014
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jamotide: So for you not believing someone elses assumption is an assumption?
Without proof, yes. I am not saying assumptions are bad; we all make them. I only ask that people call it what it is.

Regardless, I think we have long since reached the point int he debate where neither of us will budge and it has devolved into rewording arguments with different semantics.

Telika mentioned in a PM yesterday that he thought it probably revolved around how people interpret the word 'belief'. Perhaps, I should have listened to him and just stopped talking about it at that point. Apologies if I mis-paraphrased what you said, Telika, please correct me if you read this and see that I am wrong.

In any event, I am happy to have continued the debate if only because it did make me understand better how many atheists define their position. I may not agree with how they label themselves (just a difference in interpretation of 'lack of belief', I think), but I do agree with their general position sans labels. It has certainly given me food for thought, and I thank all of those that replied to me with constructive posts.
Posted February 01, 2014
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Soyeong: It really would be great if you would stop presuming to know everything about what I think. There are Jewish believers who have expressed the same thing about Jewish non-believers, so I'm not just expressing just my own thoughts. The purpose Torah gives us freedom by teaching us how to live righteously before God, but at the same time in convicts of us our sin and points to our need for a savior.
I can presume what you think because you're not saying anything other than the usual Christianized crap. But you keep on avoiding the questions and I had thought you were the thinking type...but you're just a protestant/evangelical. Disappointing.

So I'll stop at the wall you've put up. Good luck combating the atheists and whatever simple problems you enjoy turning into mole hills! :)
Posted February 01, 2014
I will post this again, as I think believers need to think about this.


This is going to be a drunken rambling, so don't expect serious debate, this is a thought rather than a debate.

Say those, that think the stories in the bible as true events and actually happened as the bible says them.

The great flood, is a worse genocide than both nazi germany and stalin's russia combined. Yet those who believe the bible glorify it as a good thing. Hitler and Stalin got off way too easy for their crimes, yet the religious glorify "god" when he kills off the entire world in one swoop except for two people. As a person who is relatively peaceful. Never been in even a fist fight in school, I cannot and would not condone the killing of the entire planet because a holy book said that it was needed. Stalin and Hitler got off easy than what I think should have been done to them. Yet god gets a free pass if you believe the flood story and sodom and gamorah. Where do the religious draw the line on genocide, and how can any genocide be good even if their old man in the sky commanded it. Let alone eternal torture in the afterlife.
Posted February 01, 2014
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nadenitza: Yes, and they don't know that. Not knowing about religious beliefs does not make you atheist, atheist is a position you make with a knowledge concerning religious beliefs. How can you be considered anything without that knowledge?
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pimpmonkey2382: Babies aren't born with a theist belief thus they are atheist at birth. It's their parents who then make them a theist.
I dunno, i think they lack the cognitive capacity to be considered anything. Imagine you are baby... nah that won't work, you already have a understanding... hmm... imagine... tsk... hmm, ok, imagine you ask a baby "do you have a theist belief?" What response will you get? Most probably "A-gugu!" :)
Dunno how you can draw a conclusion based around that and how can that be considered yes or no. It's simply neither couse it does not understand what you ask. Or we don't understand what it says, haha

I don't think not knowing about something makes you disbelieve it by default... but that's just me.

Also. on a separate note - nice analysis on "lack of belief", good read.

http://carm.org/lack-belief-analysis-outline
Post edited February 01, 2014 by nadenitza
Posted February 01, 2014
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pimpmonkey2382: Babies aren't born with a theist belief thus they are atheist at birth. It's their parents who then make them a theist.
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nadenitza: I dunno, i think they lack the cognitive capacity to be considered anything. Imagine you are baby... nah that won't work, you already have a understanding... hmm... imagine... tsk... hmm, ok, imagine you ask a baby "do you have a theist belief?" What response will you get? Most probably "A-gugu!" :)
Dunno how you can draw a conclusion based around that and how can that be considered yes or no. It's simply neither couse it does not understand what you ask. Or we don't understand what it says, haha

I don't think not knowing about something makes you disbelieve it by default... but that's just me.
babies are atheist by default, just like they wouldn't believe in santa unless told about him.
Posted February 01, 2014
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pimpmonkey2382: Babies aren't born with a religious belief. Sorry.
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nadenitza: Yes, and they don't know that. Not knowing about religious beliefs does not make you atheist, atheist is a position you make with a knowledge concerning religious beliefs. How can you be considered anything without that knowledge?
Atheism is non belief. Of course a child can't come to this conclusion until they posses rudimentary logic skills, just like the basics of grammar and math. But once their brains are ready, it's the job of parents not to inject hatred, bigotry, homophobia, sexism, racism, tribalism - all the core tenets of the Abrahamic religions. Instead, we tell them the tyrannical desert gods aren't real and they should have no effect on our morality, on how we treat our fellow man. Atheism is the best way to altruism. Religion is the fastest way to injustice and cruelty.
Post edited February 01, 2014 by scampywiak
Posted February 01, 2014
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nadenitza: Also. on a separate note - nice analysis on "lack of belief", good read.

http://carm.org/lack-belief-analysis-outline
Nice link. Given the source it is hardly unbiased, and I do take issue with a few of the points, but that is to be expected. Thanks.
Post edited February 01, 2014 by Krypsyn
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)A Message to Atheists and Agnostics - I get you(2370 posts)(2370 posts)
(2370 posts)