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Tormentfan: It would be very worth it to you to foster a friendship with someone in another country with a less restricted internet... keep buying your games, but give them access to your account in order to dl them and send you a disk of it over.

If you get really stumped I'm positive someone here would do you the favour. That's a horrible 'surcharge' you have to pay on already bought games, dude.

EDIT.. sry, screwed up the quoting format.
I'm pretty sure the cost of broadband will start to decrease dramatically within the year as there's no reason for the costs to be so high other than them trying to make as much profit as they can whilst the going is good.

In the meantime, I try to look for specials that pop up every now and then. Not so long ago there was an incredible deal of 20GB for something like $45.

But you bring up a good point - I wish GOG had a add-on service where they could burn your purchses to DVD and ship it to you - but I realise that it would be far too time consuming for them to offer this, and as broadband prices are going down over time, the service would have a short lifespan in any event.
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agogfan: It essentially means that since it costs so much to download a game, I'm only going to buy games that I can hopefully download just once and then archive to hard disk drive, and install them to PC when I'm ready to play them. My gaming PC isn't connected permanently to the net, so having mostly DRM free games allows me to be very flexible as to when I want to play a given game.
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Pheace: But then, in essence this isn't really an argument against DRM like I said. (which you seem to recognize with the 'mostly' DRM). Because even games linked to Steam can be backed up to save yourself the download later. (although it may have to reverify for some type of external DRM online once installed but that's not a bandwidth issue).

That said, if the game was forced to redownload completely every time due to the included DRM I can see your point.
I don't think I did a good job of explaining it well. I generally don't like DRM. Yes, I have a few DRM games from the past, but I avoid them entirely now except for a couple, e.g. Divinity 2, The Dragon Knight Saga. I bought the retail version before the DRM was removed, but the game developer had promised to remove the DRM and I decided to take him at his word... and he was true to his word.

My point is that it's costly for me to download games so I have to be very picky - no game is really disposable unless I buy it as a cheap retail copy, e.g. Bioshock. And since I don't like DRM, I won't pay very much for a DRM game. However, from what I've seen on these forums, a lot of Steam games that are available now on DVD tend to ignore what's on the DVD and still require a download. So buying a cheap retail copy is pointless if you have a costly download waiting for you.

I steer away from always online or excessive types of DRM games as a) I don't have a fast or reliable connection, b) I don't have to have antivirus software running on my gaming PC - which means that it thus runs really fast, c) I don't like to be dependent on someone else controlling when I can play my game, or even if I can play my game in the future, d) I tend to reinstall my gaming PC at least once a year as this keeps it running lean and mean - and I don't want to have to have a hassle trying to reactivate my games every time I do so - although it seems a lot of gaming companies are dropping their limited number of activations stance - that's a positive trend at least.

So because I don't like DRM, I don't want to spend money downloading a game with DRM, even if the game is going on sale for $2.99.

But you are right, bandwidth definitely plays a role in my DRM stance. If my bandwidth was really cheap and really reliable, I might go and buy a separate gaming PC for e.g. Steam games, and buy them when they are really cheap. But is that good for the gaming industry? I'd rather pay them what their game is worth rather than shortchanging them because of the DRM they've added to the game.
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agogfan: My point is that it's costly for me to download games so I have to be very picky - no game is really disposable unless I buy it as a cheap retail copy, e.g. Bioshock. And since I don't like DRM, I won't pay very much for a DRM game. However, from what I've seen on these forums, a lot of Steam games that are available now on DVD tend to ignore what's on the DVD and still require a download. So buying a cheap retail copy is pointless if you have a costly download waiting for you.

I steer away from always online or excessive types of DRM games as a) I don't have a fast or reliable connection, b) I don't have to have antivirus software running on my gaming PC - which means that it thus runs really fast, c) I don't like to be dependent on someone else controlling when I can play my game, or even if I can play my game in the future, d) I tend to reinstall my gaming PC at least once a year as this keeps it running lean and mean - and I don't want to have to have a hassle trying to reactivate my games every time I do so - although it seems a lot of gaming companies are dropping their limited number of activations stance - that's a positive trend at least.

So because I don't like DRM, I don't want to spend money downloading a game with DRM, even if the game is going on sale for $2.99.

But you are right, bandwidth definitely plays a role in my DRM stance. If my bandwidth was really cheap and really reliable, I might go and buy a separate gaming PC for e.g. Steam games, and buy them when they are really cheap. But is that good for the gaming industry? I'd rather pay them what their game is worth rather than shortchanging them because of the DRM they've added to the game.
I can understand not liking DRM and thus not wanting to spend much on it, fair argument there. In relation to Steam games I do believe there's often a way to install most games from the Disk however, at least the base game that was released on the disk. Any extra patches etc, which these days are even commonly present on release would still be downloaded after installation however, although the DRM would only be an issue at this point if you consider that the patches are forcibly installed to play the game, which again, is a fair argument, although I think the main point then is still rather that the DRM is forcing you to digitally use your copy, rather than the DRM in itself being an issue.

@Always online DRM, I have a rocksolid internet line, and I still don't feel like participating in that, for the simple fact that a simple hickup would toss you out of the game just like a blue-screen would. And I would not buy a game that'd bluescreen on me randomly.

@anti-virus. To be honest, I still think that a lot of the risk with virii is down to user control. I have been in the online world since dialup and I think I've barely ever had a virus in that time. I install some scanners every now and then and most they tend to find are those cookies or the occasional false hit on no-CD cracks and the like. In my opinion, as long as a person isn't foolishly opening the wrong emails and browses decent websites, preferably with things like Adblock/Noscript, then chances of catching a virus are minimal, certainly not worth running Anti-Virus programs on your computer at all times.

@reinstalls. I can imagine the re-activation or programs being a hassle though, although in a lot of cases it really is not much different from the normal install. I do agree on limited installs though, that's a pain and I have no interest in keeping up which games are installed that have limited installs and thus need proper uninstalling rather than simply wiping my windows and not caring, so in that sense I agree. I try to limit myself to install limits that refresh/add monthly at the very minimum.

@Shortchanging them. I'm not quite sure what you mean. By buying them on Steam you mean? Steam takes a decent share but in all it tends to be better for the industry than what you seem to imply is a better solution, which I assume you meant was the Brick and Mortar Store.

For one, adding Steamworks does not cost the developer anything, and in fact saves development costs since it's an already done Achievement/matchmaking framework (as showcased by Stardock recently with having opted to use Steamworks for their next Sins of a Solar Empire expansion). And if someone around here is to be believe Steam supposedly takes a smaller cut if the developer decides to opt for using Steamworks (I'm skeptical about this though).

Apart from that, mortar stores don't necessarily rake in more money for the publisher compared to digital retail as highlighted by the publisher 1C who mentions that they get more money per copy from a digital sale, *and* they get that money quicker than the retail copies:
VG's interview shed some light on the difference between selling games via retail and digital outfits from a publisher's perspective. According to Still, if 1C sold a £20 game via retail, the company would make £7 per unit, whereas that figure doubles to £14 when peddled through stores like Steam. What's more, 1C would receive that money three or fourth months faster.

Along with raking in twice as much cash per copy, Still noted that the digital medium has other lucrative advantages over retail stores. For instance, you know those mega-discounts that seduce us every Christmas with $5 AAA titles? Cheap games obviously boost sales throughout the promotion, but they also stimulate full price digital and physical sales after the deal ends.

When the game returns to its normal price, "it does so with an uplift in full price sales both on Steam and at the retail stores…because there is usually a whole new base of consumers playing and enthusing about the game on the forums. This phenomenon contrasts completely with retail, where once a game is discounted, it is heading to the dump bins and then out the door."
Post edited February 26, 2012 by Pheace
Honestly, and I know several people will tell me I am weak and have no principles when I say this, but... honestly if you can skip a game like Skyrim or Mass Effect 3 because of DRM it just tells me you didn't really want to play it that much to begin with.
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StingingVelvet: Honestly, and I know several people will tell me I am weak and have no principles when I say this, but... honestly if you can skip a game like Skyrim or Mass Effect 3 because of DRM it just tells me you didn't really want to play it that much to begin with.
On the contrary, I would like to play those games. But my desire to play those games is offset by the thought that the game developers would think that I'd be so hooked on those games that I wouldn't care what DRM they throw in.

I do have Mass Effect. It was a cheap retail copy, so that compensated for the activation story. I have Mass Effect 2 which I paid a bit more for and was also a retail copy. It has copy protection but activation is only required for DLC. I haven't looked at Mass Effect 3's DRM scheme yet. But I'd be sad if they've regressed to making it worse than the original Mass Effect. In which case, regardless of whether it finishes the story or not, I'll give it a pass for now.
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Pheace: @Shortchanging them. I'm not quite sure what you mean. By buying them on Steam you mean? Steam takes a decent share but in all it tends to be better for the industry than what you seem to imply is a better solution, which I assume you meant was the Brick and Mortar Store.
I mean paying the game developers less money for a game because it has DRM, regardless of whether it is a retail or downloadable game. I like games. I'd like the industry to keep making games. But right now I feel that I'm not contributing very much money to it. So in a way, I'm probably harming my own goals as the developers are probably thinking "We're not making enough money selling games... let's put more DRM on them".

Case in point, I often use Bioshock as an example. Why? Because it is a really polished game. The one and only reason I cannot recommend it is because of its DRM. I enjoyed playing it especially since I wasn't expecting it to be System Shock 3. It gave me a good fright in the one spot with the stairwell and the safe. It was very stable as well. And most importantly, it was stable without requiring a massive patch. Will i go out and buy Bioshock 2 even at a bargain bin price? Not a chance, as it has online saves.

I understand that developers like platforms like Steam because it simplifies the sales channel for them. But I suspect that those developers who go for Steam-only distribution do so partly because they know that their games have been released in an incomplete state and they need it to be autopatched after release and it's easier to have those patches distributed from Steam's servers than having to put bandwidth aside on their own servers to host those patches.
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StingingVelvet: Honestly, and I know several people will tell me I am weak and have no principles when I say this, but...
You, sir, are weak and have no principles! (sorry, I really couldn't resist :-) )

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agogfan: On the contrary, I would like to play those games. But my desire to play those games is offset by the thought that the game developers would think that I'd be so hooked on those games that I wouldn't care what DRM they throw in.
Also, this.
First of all, I want to say that this community is simply amazing. I never thought I would find a place like this, where I can actually interact with people so passionate about gaming as I am. Thank you so much guys!

Now to the topic.
jamyskis and NachoBoyDX - my best wishes to you. When I was reading your posts I knew exactly what you're talking about. And I guess, I feel the same way as you do. Gaming is something much more than just a simple hobby for me. This is passion and not all can understand this. Therefore it's really breaking my heart (as you put it, NachoBoyDX) to see where PC (and console) gaming industry is going nowadays. I hate DRM models they are imposing, I am worried about lack of innovation and all this Hollywood-isation of gaming. And for the last months I also considered quitting. From my perspective, companies like Valve or EA are really ruining and destroying something with which I identified myself so much! I can't collect games anymore and it's not possible to play them in a sane, healthy way any longer (thanks to you Steam!).
But now I am starting to see it in a different way. Yes, I think I've got a bit tired of constant discussions on DRM, Steam and how EA turns out be fucking Antichrist of PC/Console gaming. But now I discovered that many of you are right - why the hell bother? And this is becoming more and more clear for me. They are ruining PC gaming - Ok, but why do I care? I shouldn't quit. Yes, some jerks think that gaming now can be treated only as a way to make more money and releasing new game is like shooting Transformers 3 or X-Men 4. So they ruined C&C, CoD, Unreal and now they are going to screw Mass Effect or whatever else. But you know what? That's fine, just move along! Not all new games are like that, support the good stuff! And well, if you don't like DRM then either don't buy it or even better, buy the game, download the crack and just don't care about their bullshit. You don't want to do that? Then play some classics, or create some awesome maps for Disciples or new dungeons for Oblivion. Or get a pack of beers, launch Fuel and try to grip those 14,000 km2! Just decide what you want to do and how you want to enjoy your games. But don't be that serious! This is only gaming. Yes, at the same time it happens to be my life's passion, but why to be serious about life anyway? I might not be able to survive to another month or even week. Why would I waste time to think about DRM, IP and other stuff? Seriously, don't be that serious! ;-)
Read some wisdom on GOG forums, make up your mind and do it your own way. But if you are really in love with gaming, you won't quit, you'll find a way - as I did :)
I hope I won't be hated much for my views here. Respect opinions of others and do your own thing, fellow gamers!
Post edited February 26, 2012 by inc09nito
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agogfan: On the contrary, I would like to play those games. But my desire to play those games is offset by the thought that the game developers would think that I'd be so hooked on those games that I wouldn't care what DRM they throw in.
The point is your dislike of the DRM is more important to you than your desire to play the game, which is pretty off-kilter when compared to most gamers. It tells me you're not that excited to play it.

You can disagree, I am just giving my own theory.
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StingingVelvet: The point is your dislike of the DRM is more important to you than your desire to play the game, which is pretty off-kilter when compared to most gamers. It tells me you're not that excited to play it.

You can disagree, I am just giving my own theory.
One of the reasons I was drawn to computers in the first place is their flexibilty and their ability to create something and store it digitally forever. My conflict with DRM is that it is trying to negate the very advantage of the medium.

But as much as I target the DRM industry, I should target the the pirates too. But I've decided to take myself out of the battle. Let the DRM guys and pirates battle it out. I'm not prepared to be affected by the collateral damage. I'm tired of always having to compromise.

DRM will eventually die out. It's inevitable. And I believe sites like GOG.com are a forerunner of things to come.
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agogfan: One of the reasons I was drawn to computers in the first place is their flexibilty and their ability to create something and store it digitally forever. My conflict with DRM is that it is trying to negate the very advantage of the medium.
And I agree with that, I just don't punish myself by not playing awesome games.

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agogfan: DRM will eventually die out. It's inevitable. And I believe sites like GOG.com are a forerunner of things to come.
I doubt it, we're heading to a streaming future where no one owns any media.
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StingingVelvet: I doubt it, we're heading to a streaming future where no one owns any media.
Except for the pirates ...
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agogfan: DRM will eventually die out. It's inevitable. And I believe sites like GOG.com are a forerunner of things to come.
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StingingVelvet: I doubt it, we're heading to a streaming future where no one owns any media.
In the short run, yes. But after a while there will be a backlash as people realise how much control they've been relinqishing over time.

I'm surprised the always-online types of games haven't taken things to the point of little in-game pop-ups:

"I see you're a fan of mowing down hordes of undead with that flamethrower. Since you like burning things how about buying our super-griller for getting those burgers seared just right".

or

"We see you enjoy playing as a thief character. Worried that others might be doing the same to you. Buy this Mark IV home security kit on special now".

EDIT: Fixed up the formatting a little.
Post edited February 26, 2012 by agogfan
I can sympathize with the OP on this. I started gaming back in the days of the 8" floppy discs. I first learned about programming because of games. It has become on of my biggest pastimes as it is cheaper than most of the other I pursue. I am a PC gamer because of the freedom of the platform, DRM schemes such as Steam are the antithesis of this.

I have setup my PCs in a way that is optimized for my family. All the important stuff that I care about goes onto a 100% offline box, my always online machine is very basic and can be completely rebuilt in an afternoon, there is also a specialty machine that is connected only to upload specific personal data. This has been my setup, more or less, for years and has caused no problems until now.

There are many games that I have looked at and thought "Oh, that looks good I think I'll try that out" only to find that you are required to be online when installing/staring/playing the game so I pass up on the title. There are also new installments to game series that I have enjoyed and want to continue enjoying, but again they require an internet connection on my gaming machine. So I have passed on these as well, the hardest for me was Fallout: New Vegas. I have been a huge Fallout fan since Wasteland but I am now physically unable to play the latest installment without completely retooling my entire PC setup. And I am not going to go through all that trouble for the privilege of being vendor locked to a vendor I never patronized to begin with.

I understand that this is the digital age there are market forces and blah blah blah, okay I get that. It's similar to how I much prefer to drive a car with a manual transmission, there are very few cars sold today that offer a choice of manual or automatic. However there is nothing but an extra cost to prevent me from choosing the exact car I want and swapping out the transmission for my beloved 5-Speed. With older cars I can do it my self but for newer models I would go to an actual mechanic. If I buy a game and it comes with "features" I don't like I can (and have) removed some of those features my self but for newer titles I would have to rely on someone else to do this for me, but this is illegal.

So while I have not quit gaming completely I have limited the games I do play. It's getting harder and harder to find newer games that don't have some form of online requirement, and of those there are many that I don't really have any interest in playing.
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agogfan: In the short run, yes. But after a while there will be a backlash as people realise how much control they've been relinqishing over time.
That's a lot of faith you're putting into people agreeing with you in the future when they don't at all now.