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IAmSinistar: So it's a straw man as to whether one service is more convenient than the other, because the definition of convenience varies by user.
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synfresh: It's not a straw man argument, it's a fact because sales numbers bear it out. 2 million users visit GoG per month vs. 7.66 million users being on the Steam platform today. So by that comparision, a majority of digital service buyers prefer convenience. And that's just not Steam but every other distributor where people buy games from but only if it provides Steam keys. Thus my original point stands and that's convenience trumps everything else. This isn't limited to digital games, it's everything. Even GoG recognizes this, why do you think they announced Galaxy?
You certainly don't know what the definition of a straw man is then. The numbers are fact, yes, but there is no possible way that you can attribute Steam's higher numbers to a preference for convenience. There are so many other factors at play, and as I and others have stated, a person's definition of convenience is not necessarily the same as another's. I find Steam to be vastly more inconvenient than GOG. Most people are just forced to buy through Steam due to there being no alternative for many products. There also is a lack of knowledge of the alternatives that do exist, because in many cases they are very hard to find. Recently, I found out that Titan Quest is only available DRM free from GamersGate. All the other services I've seen were simple Steam key resellers.

I guess I'll take your argument that convenience is a very important deciding factor in purchase, but hardly is it the only one, and it is very debatable whether or not it is the most important. Price plays a larger factor in my opinion. I drive across a river to buy cigarettes instead of going to the gas station down the road from me because I can get a carton for $25 cheaper in North Dakota than in Minnesota.

Fast food is more convenient and cheaper than eating at a healthy, sit down restaurant, and in many cases cheaper even than preparing meals at home. It certainly is more convenient. Then why are fast food restaurants shutting down all over the United States? People are becoming more health conscious through education.

I am aware that I have no rights to own anything that I purchase through Steam or its distributors, so I don't give them money. Even if I did think it was more convenient, that alone wouldn't sway me back there.

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skeletonbow: That really is the crux of it right there boiled right down as plain and simple as it gets, and the most important part of it that really needs to be read 3-5 times on auto-repeat is the part you were nice enough to put in bold as _that_ is what matters the most ultimately and that is what companies ultimately stay in business for when one gets to the meat and potatoes of it.
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synfresh: Agree 100%. Saying simply DRM=BAD means nothing to the average Steam user. And it's not because they don't know what DRM is. It's just accepted when it comes to Steam because the Steam benefits vastly outweighs taking a stand against something which will deprive you of playing newer releases.
Once again, that varies on how much conviction a person has towards an issue. People can only be pushed so far against their will before they will "say enough is enough, I have alternatives." Your opinion does not belong to everyone, so you do not speak for everyone.
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txnca: I haven't read all of this, but I will answer anyway. I would almost bet that more than half of the 7.66 million you say visit Steam a month do so because they HAVE TO. Just like myself, I bought two games, neither of which said a damn thing about Steam or Steam keys and when I went to install, guess where I end up?! STEAM! As far as I am concerned, I have been ripped off! I bought two CDs which should have contained games, instead what they contained was the install to the Steam client which up until THAT point I had avoided. THAT is not choice! THAT is being FORCED into a contract which I did NOT ask for. Steam and any game that forces you to install it via Steam is nothing more than FORCED ENSLAVEMENT to what THEY consider to be convenience but what I consider to be anything but convenient! Steam can suck a fart out of my a$$!
No one forced you to buy those two games. (Well, I would certainly hope not.)

If you were duped into thinking the games were more than a Steam key, then you have every right to be angry - but Steam isn't the one to blame; the publisher or the store is (for a physical game it's always the publisher, for a digital game it depends on the habits of the store).

Games do not become Steam-only by magic; it happens because the developer or publisher decides to make it so. The only time Valve is involved in that decision is when they are the developer or publisher themselves.
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synfresh: It's not a straw man argument, it's a fact because sales numbers bear it out. 2 million users visit GoG per month vs. 7.66 million users being on the Steam platform today. So by that comparision, a majority of digital service buyers prefer convenience. And that's just not Steam but every other distributor where people buy games from but only if it provides Steam keys. Thus my original point stands and that's convenience trumps everything else. This isn't limited to digital games, it's everything. Even GoG recognizes this, why do you think they announced Galaxy?
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vulchor: You certainly don't know what the definition of a straw man is then. The numbers are fact, yes, but there is no possible way that you can attribute Steam's higher numbers to a preference for convenience. There are so many other factors at play, and as I and others have stated, a person's definition of convenience is not necessarily the same as another's. I find Steam to be vastly more inconvenient than GOG. Most people are just forced to buy through Steam due to there being no alternative for many products. There also is a lack of knowledge of the alternatives that do exist, because in many cases they are very hard to find. Recently, I found out that Titan Quest is only available DRM free from GamersGate. All the other services I've seen were simple Steam key resellers.

I guess I'll take your argument that convenience is a very important deciding factor in purchase, but hardly is it the only one, and it is very debatable whether or not it is the most important. Price plays a larger factor in my opinion. I drive across a river to buy cigarettes instead of going to the gas station down the road from me because I can get a carton for $25 cheaper in North Dakota than in Minnesota.

Fast food is more convenient and cheaper than eating at a healthy, sit down restaurant, and in many cases cheaper even than preparing meals at home. It certainly is more convenient. Then why are fast food restaurants shutting down all over the United States? People are becoming more health conscious through education.

I am aware that I have no rights to own anything that I purchase through Steam or its distributors, so I don't give them money. Even if I did think it was more convenient, that alone wouldn't sway me back there.

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synfresh: Agree 100%. Saying simply DRM=BAD means nothing to the average Steam user. And it's not because they don't know what DRM is. It's just accepted when it comes to Steam because the Steam benefits vastly outweighs taking a stand against something which will deprive you of playing newer releases.
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vulchor: Once again, that varies on how much conviction a person has towards an issue. People can only be pushed so far against their will before they will "say enough is enough, I have alternatives." Your opinion does not belong to everyone, so you do not speak for everyone.
What do you mean 'forced'? No one is forcing you to buy anything. No one is forcing you to play Skyrim, that's your choice. If buyers as you say are pushed so far as to say 'enough is enough', where is the evidence that bears this out? Understand, that any protest or movement (the DRM-FREE movement) is only effective if many people are paying attention to you. Who is paying attention outside of GoG? Since GoG has launched, has it affected Steam in any way, either by losing titles or users to the system?

You also say people use Steam because there are no alternatives. I disagree as that completely ignores what Steam brings to the table. The average Steam user buys from there because of what Steam is. As other posts have mentions, simply saying STEAM=BAD means nothing, how is it bad and what are giving me that is going to replace what I'm getting from Steam (not the very least of which is the selection of titles they offer).
Post edited June 26, 2014 by synfresh
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synfresh: It's not a straw man argument, it's a fact because sales numbers bear it out. 2 million users visit GoG per month vs. 7.66 million users being on the Steam platform today. So by that comparision, a majority of digital service buyers prefer convenience. And that's just not Steam but every other distributor where people buy games from but only if it provides Steam keys. Thus my original point stands and that's convenience trumps everything else. This isn't limited to digital games, it's everything. Even GoG recognizes this, why do you think they announced Galaxy?
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txnca: I haven't read all of this, but I will answer anyway. I would almost bet that more than half of the 7.66 million you say visit Steam a month do so because they HAVE TO. Just like myself, I bought two games, neither of which said a damn thing about Steam or Steam keys and when I went to install, guess where I end up?! STEAM! As far as I am concerned, I have been ripped off! I bought two CDs which should have contained games, instead what they contained was the install to the Steam client which up until THAT point I had avoided. THAT is not choice! THAT is being FORCED into a contract which I did NOT ask for. Steam and any game that forces you to install it via Steam is nothing more than FORCED ENSLAVEMENT to what THEY consider to be convenience but what I consider to be anything but convenient! Steam can suck a fart out of my a$$!
How many of the 7.66 million daily Steam customers have even HEARD of GOG.com? I'd wager that in many cases it's got absolutely NOTHING to do with preference or convenience but purely that they are unaware of any alternatives to Steam. Look how many people come here asking "Do I get a steam key when I buy this game?" Even the publishers of Ether One were being asked this question when they were advertising the Ether One flash sale on Facebook.

Steam only has 7.66 million users per day because these people (myself included) have bought games that require them to install the client. Some of them have come to Steam by choice and others like txnca and myself were duped into it by misleading packaging but if we want to actually play the games we've bought we have to log into Steam to gain access to them.

People come to GOG via word of mouth; by personal recommendations or, as in my case, a particular freebie that gets posted around the 'Net that catches their attention. By the very nature of the GOG website, there's never going to be the daily traffic that Steam gets - there is no obligation to visit this site to play a game that's been bought and downloaded from here, so comparing Steam's daily traffic with GOG's monthly visitors isn't really a fair or relevant comparison.
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IAmSinistar: So it's a straw man as to whether one service is more convenient than the other, because the definition of convenience varies by user.
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synfresh: It's not a straw man argument, it's a fact because sales numbers bear it out. 2 million users visit GoG per month vs. 7.66 million users being on the Steam platform today. So by that comparision, a majority of digital service buyers prefer convenience. And that's just not Steam but every other distributor where people buy games from but only if it provides Steam keys. Thus my original point stands and that's convenience trumps everything else. This isn't limited to digital games, it's everything. Even GoG recognizes this, why do you think they announced Galaxy?
Wow, out of all that I posted, you select one sentence to refute, and then do it wrong. vulchor and txnca have already corrected you, so I really don't see a need to try to further teach the unteachable. Especially when they are going to ignore everything I write in the hopes of finding one "gotcha" line to pounce on. And then fail at that.
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synfresh: It's not a straw man argument, it's a fact because sales numbers bear it out. 2 million users visit GoG per month vs. 7.66 million users being on the Steam platform today.
The thing is, that many games nowadays are in the stores which are tied to steam. There is no choice wether to install steam or not if you want to play some specific games. so many people are on steam because the game leaves them no choice and therefor those people are trying to milk out as much as they can out of the given circumstances!
Other than steamed games, gog games are not in the stores, because no game needs gog and you only find gog online! So many people don`t even know that gog exists. Also there are still people who love to have a physical copy of the game so they bite into the sour apple and buy the steam-tied boxed game, cause they have no choice!
So. comparing people visiting steam is just a cheap trick, its like comparing apples and oranges!
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vulchor: You certainly don't know what the definition of a straw man is then. The numbers are fact, yes, but there is no possible way that you can attribute Steam's higher numbers to a preference for convenience. There are so many other factors at play, and as I and others have stated, a person's definition of convenience is not necessarily the same as another's. I find Steam to be vastly more inconvenient than GOG. Most people are just forced to buy through Steam due to there being no alternative for many products. There also is a lack of knowledge of the alternatives that do exist, because in many cases they are very hard to find. Recently, I found out that Titan Quest is only available DRM free from GamersGate. All the other services I've seen were simple Steam key resellers.

I guess I'll take your argument that convenience is a very important deciding factor in purchase, but hardly is it the only one, and it is very debatable whether or not it is the most important. Price plays a larger factor in my opinion. I drive across a river to buy cigarettes instead of going to the gas station down the road from me because I can get a carton for $25 cheaper in North Dakota than in Minnesota.

Fast food is more convenient and cheaper than eating at a healthy, sit down restaurant, and in many cases cheaper even than preparing meals at home. It certainly is more convenient. Then why are fast food restaurants shutting down all over the United States? People are becoming more health conscious through education.

I am aware that I have no rights to own anything that I purchase through Steam or its distributors, so I don't give them money. Even if I did think it was more convenient, that alone wouldn't sway me back there.

Once again, that varies on how much conviction a person has towards an issue. People can only be pushed so far against their will before they will "say enough is enough, I have alternatives." Your opinion does not belong to everyone, so you do not speak for everyone.
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synfresh: What do you mean 'forced'? No one is forcing you to buy anything. No one is forcing you to play Skyrim, that's your choice. If buyers as you say are pushed so far as to say 'enough is enough', where is the evidence that bears this out? Understand, that any protest or movement (the DRM-FREE movement) is only effective if many people are paying attention to you. Who is paying attention outside of GoG? Since GoG has launched, has it affected Steam in any way, either by losing titles or users to the system?

You also say people use Steam because there are no alternatives. I disagree as that completely ignores what Steam brings to the table. The average Steam user buys from there because of what Steam is. As other posts have mentions, simply saying STEAM=BAD means nothing, how is it bad and what are giving me that is going to replace what I'm getting from Steam (not the very least of which is the selection of titles they offer).
Forced was not meant as the extreme that the definition can imply, such as at gun point, but then again you know that, and you know the definition of the word forced. Done against the consumers' will or intentions certainly can labeled as forced. Just because you're a fanboy, doesn't mean even that the majority of Steam users are. The rest has been explained to you already, so you can reread as much as you like until you understand.

To answer one of your final questions, there are a great many of us here on GOG and elsewhere that have stopped using Steam. So they have lost users. Google is your friend for further proof, as presenting myself is enough to prove my statement.

I'll encourage others to ignore any further posts of yours as you have begun to resemble a troll.

[EDIT] At no time during this conversation did anybody say anything as simple as just STEAM=BAD. You just refused to comprehend what is said and reduce it to that in your head.
Post edited June 26, 2014 by vulchor
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vulchor: Forced was not meant as the extreme that the definition can imply, such as at gun point, but then again you know that, and you know the definition of the word forced. Done against the consumers' will or intentions certainly can labeled as forced. Just because you're a fanboy, doesn't mean even that the majority of Steam users are. The rest has been explained to you already, so you can reread as much as you like until you understand.

To answer one of your final questions, there are a great many of us here on GOG and elsewhere that have stopped using Steam. So they have lost users. Google is your friend for further proof, as presenting myself is enough to prove my statement.

I'll encourage others to ignore any further posts of yours as you have begun to resemble a troll.
^ This.

EDIT: Removed the rest of my post as, in cooler moments of reflection, I realised it wasn't productive.
Post edited June 27, 2014 by IAmSinistar
It's always interesting how when someone is set against any other opinion that they will find the smallest mole hill and make it a mountain. Synfresh seems to be a mountain maker. I personally use Steam and GOG both and have no issues with either one. The only game I've ever disliked because of DRM is Spore. I understand the complaints surrounded by DRM, but it has not been a bother to me (spore excluded).

Now I can see down the road where I am going to be thankful for having GOG and it's DRM free games as my only source of games, but for now I still want to dabble in both :)
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j0ekerr: Good arguments, but they are all the way down on the bleak and fatalistic side of things with more than a pinch of cynical.
Yes all of those things could happen, but they haven't, and I don't think that they will necessarily happen. It's not a question of when but of if, and ifs are worth as much as a fart in a cow barn.
And while you're distracted with that delicious mental image I steal your shoelaces and tie your wallet.

There is such a thing as brand-loyalty a naive concept I know, but it exists. And so far as I'm concerned Valve has earned it. Valve has a reputation for being nice, offering good deals and not being abusive. I don't think that the only reason people use Steam is because it's convenient (which it is) but because they feel happy using it. They don't feel swindled, or abused by the company. Valve has cultivated an image opposite to that of other major publishers. They make money to make games, not the other way around, they care about good games and they care about their customers enjoying them. And so far, they have delivered. The many good guy Gaben images and memes out there seem to agree with me.
Am I too fatalistic? Gee, I don't know. If I say I want to be close to my (yet-to-come) kids while I can because I'm eventually going to die is that being realistic or fatalistic? Should I hide my head in the sand and suppose I'm immortal?

Extrapolating your argument, maybe that's a bit too pessimistic because I never died so far. Yes it could happen, but it hasn't, so it is possible that it won't necessarily happen. It's not a question of when but of if, and ifs are worth as much as a fart in a cow barn.

... or we could look back through history and realize that everybody dies someday and, while we're at it, every company eventually changes or falls. That's especially fast for tech-related companies because every so often a new technology comes into play. Some bet all their chips in something doomed to fail. Others don't take risks and once they realize the new tech is bound to be successful their competitors are pulling ahead.
Ten years ago Nokia was the strongest player in the phone market. Today they're sweating to make a dent in the competition.
Ten years ago Microsoft wouldn't bother with Apple's profitable but tiny market share.
Ten years ago Yahoo was king and very few people had ever heard of Google.
If we keep to videogame companies: a bit above 15 years ago Atari was one of the best companies. So were Sega and Eidos.
Would you call their current state ten or fifteen years ago?
Can you vouch for Valve's state in 10 or 15 years?

It's not about tarnishing Valve's image. It's not about ignoring their earned rep. It's about knowing that that rep don't make them immune to the same things that screwed other supposedly solid companies.

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j0ekerr: And if they change that, those same customers will flock away faster than you can say half life 2 episode 3.
EXACTLY THIS! But what you forget is that those customers might flock away but they can't take their games with them. LOST. FOREVER.

BTW, I think you misunderstood what the Walmart's analogy was about but this post is too big as it is.
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BlackThorny: First, If you crack and patch your Steam games to remove steam, why do you buy there in the first place? To support the Publisher?
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vulchor: You don't have to buy a game from Steam to be forced to use Steam to play the game.
@BlackThorny: Find me an official copy of Arkham Asylum/City that doesn't use Steam.

Hmm, you can't. There's no way to buy them DRM-free.
Post edited June 26, 2014 by joppo
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trentonlf: It's always interesting how when someone is set against any other opinion that they will find the smallest mole hill and make it a mountain. Synfresh seems to be a mountain maker. I personally use Steam and GOG both and have no issues with either one. The only game I've ever disliked because of DRM is Spore. I understand the complaints surrounded by DRM, but it has not been a bother to me (spore excluded).

Now I can see down the road where I am going to be thankful for having GOG and it's DRM free games as my only source of games, but for now I still want to dabble in both :)
Now that I have Steam installed, I've bought several other games in addition to Anna, including both Witchers.

I used to prefer to have physical copies of games but since I discovered GOG (which was, incidentally, around the same time as I bought Anna and installed Steam), I've embraced digital downloads but this has not reflected in my Steam purchases. Thanks to Insomnia, the daily/weekly deals and the ongoing Summer Sale I have 130 games on my GOG shelf (not including the games that are permanently free to download and my Witcher backups) compared to 12 on my Steam account.

For the most part Steam has not intruded on my gameplay, but waiting for updates before I can play is annoying and once not being able to play because the client required an update when I had no internet access was extremely frustrating. These are the downsides to the so-called 'convenience' of Steam which is why, where I can, I'll purchase a GOG version over a Steam one any day of the week. :-)
Post edited June 26, 2014 by LynetteC
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LynetteC: Now that I have Steam installed, I've bought several othe rgames in addition to Anna, including both Witchers.

I used to prefer to have physical copies of games but since I discovered GOG (which was, incidentally, around the same time as I bought Anna and installed Steam), I've embraced digital downloads but this has not reflected in my Steam purchases. Thanks to Insomnia, the daily/weekly deals and the ongoing Summer Sale I have 130 games on my GOG shelf (not including the games that are permanently free to download and my Witcher backups) compared to 12 on my Steam account.

For the most part Steam has not intruded on my gameplay, but waiting for updates before I can play is annoying and once not being able to play because the client required an update when I had no internet access was extremely frustrating. These are the downsides to the so-called 'convenience' of Steam which is why, where I can, I'll purchase a GOG version over a Steam one any day of the week. :-)
I do prefer GOG if the game is on both too. The same thing happened with me too, right before I found GOG I bought a 90 game bundle on Steam (Skyrim legendary edition was main game wanted in it, but it had all of Bethesda's games) so I still play on Steam often.
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LynetteC: Now that I have Steam installed, I've bought several othe rgames in addition to Anna, including both Witchers.

I used to prefer to have physical copies of games but since I discovered GOG (which was, incidentally, around the same time as I bought Anna and installed Steam), I've embraced digital downloads but this has not reflected in my Steam purchases. Thanks to Insomnia, the daily/weekly deals and the ongoing Summer Sale I have 130 games on my GOG shelf (not including the games that are permanently free to download and my Witcher backups) compared to 12 on my Steam account.

For the most part Steam has not intruded on my gameplay, but waiting for updates before I can play is annoying and once not being able to play because the client required an update when I had no internet access was extremely frustrating. These are the downsides to the so-called 'convenience' of Steam which is why, where I can, I'll purchase a GOG version over a Steam one any day of the week. :-)
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trentonlf: I do prefer GOG if the game is on both too. The same thing happened with me too, right before I found GOG I bought a 90 game bundle on Steam (Skyrim legendary edition was main game wanted in it, but it had all of Bethesda's games) so I still play on Steam often.
I just bought the Elder Scrolls Anthology from game.co.uk for £18.99. I know I'm going to need Steam for them but I've always wanted to play since Morrowind. :-) But 90 games? Wow, that's one SERIOUS bundle!
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LynetteC: I just bought the Elder Scrolls Anthology from game.co.uk for £18.99. I know I'm going to need Steam for them but I've always wanted to play since Morrowind. :-) But 90 games? Wow, that's one SERIOUS bundle!
Yeah, it was one of Steams sales last year. I missed out on buying Skyrim Legendary edition when it was on sale, but then they put this massive bundle up (Skyrim legendary, Oblivion, Morrowind, Fallout NV, Fallout 3, Fallout 2, Fallout, Dishonored, and so many more. And, the DLC's for all of them), and I had none of them. So I pulled the trigger and bought the 90 game bundle :)
Yea I hate having Skyrim on there though. Mine is VERY modded and sure it makes it a tad unstable, but I know that the "steam updates" CTD me just as often as my own obsession with mods.
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LynetteC: I just bought the Elder Scrolls Anthology from game.co.uk for £18.99. I know I'm going to need Steam for them but I've always wanted to play since Morrowind. :-) But 90 games? Wow, that's one SERIOUS bundle!
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trentonlf: Yeah, it was one of Steams sales last year. I missed out on buying Skyrim Legendary edition when it was on sale, but then they put this massive bundle up (Skyrim legendary, Oblivion, Morrowind, Fallout NV, Fallout 3, Fallout 2, Fallout, Dishonored, and so many more. And, the DLC's for all of them), and I had none of them. So I pulled the trigger and bought the 90 game bundle :)
How much was that in USD so I can cry?

Think I payed $50 for the base game (physical copy, which pisses me off even MORE about having to make a steam acct)
Believe I payed full price for Dawnguard, and got Hearthfire and Dragonborn during a 50% sale
Post edited June 26, 2014 by Cyberevil