No, and they are still not part of the EU. Does that also mean that they are not in Europe (by western standards :p)?

I don't get that anti-monopolistic 'orders'. Why does Microsoft has to get more than 1 internet browser as a default in their system, and Apple or Google or Amazon don't need to give a choice at all in their devices? From them all, Windows was the LEAST closed system.
Ah... Greece. Don't you guys in Germany think that fall of Greece and then while Italy follows is a another great opportunity to restore Great Roman Empire? :D

The EU caused peace in its member states. That worked.

Randall put it rather succinctly the other day.

With dramatic effects ? In France, the european consitution was rejected by popular vote, and not exactly on the guidance of american billionaires. It was still adopted the following year, with some formal rewriting, and no consultation of the people this time. They voted no, therefore they didn't know how to vote, therefore let's skip that part.

Love this usage of democracy. Pretty convenient, for any structure of power, to arbitrarily decide what points have to be submitted to the population, and what points "would not be understood". Democracy as the freedom to nod at pre-decided policies. An argument that can be used by any side in control, to short-circuit democratic processes, even at an international distance (let's let a Merkel define what is "good for the greeks even if they wouldn't understand", given that it's totally her preoccupation). Heck, we've seen quite a few proponents of "enlightened dictatorship" pop out, this last year.

I'm swiss, I live in a country that can administratively afford direct democracy, and I suffer of the power of heavily financed populism (the extreme-right UDC/SVP is the strongest party by far, has more marketing money than the sum of all other parties, in a system that insists on maintaining campaign fundings as occult as possible). But I still prefer this system by far, by very far, to the ideology of "those our laws will impact will not understand that it's for their own good". Because these logics are established by people whose interpretations are themselves very far from being as neutral and objective as they claim. In practice, it's what turned the whole of Europe into this neocapitalist shitfest, entirely dependant on apolitical mechanisms, and driven by a specific, situated, economical philosophy presenting itself as some sort of immanent manifest destiny.

I don't know exactly what path would have been the least devastating for Greece, between the short-term cataclysm of regaining monetary autonomy, and the long term devastation of national misery due to the diktats of foreign politicians who just don't give two shits about the actual humans there, but the question isn't even asked, in a context where one dominant side can impose the policies that would benefit it most, in accordance to the economy dogma it endorses uncritically, and the culturalist demagogy that secures the most votes locally. I just fully appreciate how cosy are those who decide who has or hasn't a word to say in the (pseudo-)political choices which consequences they have to endure directly, what things have to be taken into account or not, and more precisely whose things.

I have a suggestion. Let's put a Merkel at the head of the European Kingdom, as she'll know for the rest. This will even more efficietly preserve democracy from voters. Also, Nobel prize.

Agreed. I think we're good in many ways and I'm proud of our country, but I don't think the habit of putting Norway on top of everything is reasonable. Luck matters. I don't know much about this minefield of a topic, but I think NATO intended to somehow marginalise the UCK during the NATO involvement from the spring of 1999. I doubt NATO wanted to facilitate attacks on any civilians.

Just for the record: far as I know we are still shelling out far more money to EU than the other way around. Of course this cannot continue for long as it's strangling the national economy, I imagine the next government will want to use the EFSF. Until that happens though, feel free to hate someone else.

I don't blame the EU for what's happening in my country, even if a lot of people do (especially Germany, thanks to Merkel's insistence on austerity). If we are in this mess it's mostly because of +30 years of misgovernment and a selfish political class that kept dancing around problems until too late.

And I'm concerned because EU seems to be repeating our own mistakes, i.e. everyone only caring about their own interests and not the bigger picture. So while the north complains their taxes are wasted on the south, and the south complains austerity is killing them, the banks keep doing their shit completely unregulated and backed up by public money, and no one seems to give a fuck about it.

That's so true. The second example is popular vote in Ireland. They said no the first time? Ok, let's vote again. Until they say yes.

EU leans strongly towards oligarchy. Not only by ignoring the people, but also by ignoring the lesser countries.

We all know that EU has been forced down our throat.

Oh boy ...

What has the EU ever done for us ... ?

Yeah, I guess that's why the smaller states, like Luxemburg, Malta, Belgium, or Denmark, are constantly clamoring to break out of this evil institution ...

*bangs head against wall*

One of the _problems_ of the EU is that in one of its key institutions - the European Council - every single member state can throw a wrench into anything, so that the 300,000 Luxemburgians have as much vetoing power as the 65 Million Frenchmen. WHich in turn means that it's excessively hard to get anything done.

Whether EU is good for us or not, that's not the point.

And you're not bothered by the fact Germany France and UK are the only "upkeepers" right now? That poorer countries simply live on expense of yours? That German folks could live much better if they didn't have to 'save Greece'?
By the way, EU was ignoring Poland quite often, e.g. the unified VAT rates that we just can't simply afford, unrealistic limitations on milk that hurt our farmers, I could count many many more.
It's easy to say "Eu is great" while being a citizen of a country that has the most power in EU . But still, I wouldn't be happy I need to pay out the Greek bills while still having tons of my own :P
In general, EU works fine, but there are many areas where it barely works...

I don't know SimonG's answer, but personally I'm not at all bothered by the things you mention, because the argument that Germans could live "better" if they didn't have to "save Greece" is rubbish. It's an incredibly short-sighted way of thinking.

Yes, the current economic situation is stressful. Yes, Germany would have more money for itself if it didn't pump so much into the EU and (currently) specifically Greece. But whatever good that might do, they long-term negative effects would be _much_ worse.

There isn't any alternative to the EU if you want a future in which the people still have power. Lots of people seem to think that they'd have _more_ power if they'd be "on their own", each country for itself, but that's an illusion. In reality, the biggest threat to people's well-being does not originate from political institutions, it originates from unchecked corporations who can render the individual states' legislations meaningless by playing them against each other. A strong EU is the best weapon that citizens could possibly have against that.

Look at it this way: There is the political world, where people actually have power, by voting for their government. Then there is the economical world, where people have very little power - apart from their ability to go on strike, all the power that they _do_ have is due to legislation provided in the political world. Now, during the past few decades, the economical world has become globalized and hyper-mobile, while the political world still stayed mostly fractioned. The result is that global corporations can easily play countries against each other. The countries' administrations are incapable of keeping them in check because even if _one_ country issues some legislation that improves the rights of the people, the biggest corporations will just move on to the next country - so, instead of improving the situation of the workers, the administration has in fact only raised unemployment.

The only viable remedy to this situation is to let the political institutions keep up with the economical ones. A unified EU with a strong, unified legislation can do far more for its citizens than any individual country could. The EU is by far the best chance to secure a good future for our kids, squandering that chance would be inexcusable.