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General discussion (archive)$122,874 Kickstarter down the drain.(110 posts)(110 posts)
(110 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted July 29, 2013
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Roman5: Lawrence "Saker" Collins 3 days ago
Who is Lawrence "Saker" Collins, and why is he assuming a grant is a contract?
Posted July 29, 2013
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Roman5: Lawrence "Saker" Collins 3 days ago
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JMich: Who is Lawrence "Saker" Collins, and why is he assuming a grant is a contract?
Far as I could see he's just a guy who backed a lot of projects.

The Kickstarter terms of use include:

- Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

It's clear from this that there's some form of contract here, however that contract includes the possibility that the project fails to deliver rewards. There's nothing in there about how quickly the money needs to be refunded, so the creator's promise to refund money as it become available seems to satisfy the conditions of the contract.

Edit: Looking at the discussion on that project, it looks like people want to sue the project creator. Given the clause quoted above, I imagine that they most they can get from a trial is a ruling on how long the creator has to refund the money. IMO that would be a waste of time, assuming that the creator does intend to refund the money, since a trial will make it harder for him to do that.

That said, I'm not a lawyer, let alone a US lawyer.

By the way it's not clear how much partial fulfillment affects refunds. If a creator delivered a t-shirt, but the game proper is never finished, how much does the creator need to refund?
Post edited July 29, 2013 by ET3D
Posted July 29, 2013
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Neobr10: Yes, a pledge to Kickstarter is a donation. No doubt about that
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shane-o: Why do people keep saying this? I can't claim it on tax as as donation so really it can't be one...If I'm wrong, someone tell me why
@ Shane-o: Ignoring the aspect of Kickstarter pledges being donations or not, I'll address your question about donations and tax deductions as applies in Australia. Just because you have made a donation doesn't mean it is tax deductible. Only donations made to registered charities (deductible gift recipients) are tax deductible on your Australian tax return.
Posted July 29, 2013
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DRM_free_fan: @ Shane-o: Ignoring the aspect of Kickstarter pledges being donations or not, I'll address your question about donations and tax deductions as applies in Australia. Just because you have made a donation doesn't mean it is tax deductible. Only donations made to registered charities (deductible gift recipients) are tax deductible on your Australian tax return.
Oh yeah, I forgot all about that! LOL Thanks for pointing that out
Posted August 01, 2013
Board and card game publisher Cryptozoic Entertainment has stepped in to publish the game, they promise that all the Kickstarter backers will have their rewards fulfilled.
http://www.cryptozoic.com/articles/cryptozoic-saves-doom-came-atlantic-city-board-game
Posted August 01, 2013
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SCPM: Board and card game publisher Cryptozoic Entertainment has stepped in to publish the game, they promise that all the Kickstarter backers will have their rewards fulfilled.
http://www.cryptozoic.com/articles/cryptozoic-saves-doom-came-atlantic-city-board-game
that's super nice of them. big kudos to them!
Posted August 01, 2013
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SCPM: Board and card game publisher Cryptozoic Entertainment has stepped in to publish the game, they promise that all the Kickstarter backers will have their rewards fulfilled.
http://www.cryptozoic.com/articles/cryptozoic-saves-doom-came-atlantic-city-board-game
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htown1980: that's super nice of them. big kudos to them!
This is great news for the backers and the creators and the artists!!

On the other hand I hope this isn't a buy-out for EC, and he still gets sued.
Post edited August 01, 2013 by dizcology
Posted August 01, 2013
What's even more interesting to me is how much money the owners of Kickstarter are making, particularly from failed projects that don't deliver. They still take their 10 percent and, considering how much some Kickstarters are making, that is a HUGE amount of money ($300,000 on the Broken Age Kickstarter alone). Yet all they do is provide web space for people to post their campaigns and send a weekly email out.

Interestingly too, they have it written in their legal mumbo-jumbo that they're not liable for failed projects or for backers wanting their money back. (And yet they still take their 10 percent).

I'm not so sure which is the bigger scam? The developers who take the money and run or the Kickstarter owners who, wait........also take the money and run.

I've backed two -- one delivered on time, one is almost a year behind deadline (not worried as with the hugely detailed updates they do often, I'm sure it will be released). I won't back any more.

Finally, I put this video on my website from TotalBiscuit -- Kickstarter or wait for pre-order? I don't believe in either Kickstarter or Pre-order in most cases, and was not surprised to see neither does TB. Take a listen if you're interested.

http://bloodygoodgames.com/should-you-back-a-kickstarter-game-or-wait-for-pre-order-video/
Posted August 01, 2013
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Bloodygoodgames: Finally, I put this video on my website from TotalBiscuit -- Kickstarter or wait for pre-order? I don't believe in either Kickstarter or Pre-order in most cases, and was not surprised to see neither does TB. Take a listen if you're interested.
I am not sure I agree that that is an accurate summary of TB's view.

The impression I got was that TB's view was that crowd funding was more desirable than pre-ordering, because the customers can then have a say as to which games may or may not get made (whereas with pre-orders the publishers have already decided what game will get made and are already paying for it to be made) but only if you have the disposable income to burn.

The biggest problem with kickstarter is people going into it thinking they are preordering a game and not appreciating there is a risk the game will not be made.
Posted August 01, 2013
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Bloodygoodgames: Finally, I put this video on my website from TotalBiscuit -- Kickstarter or wait for pre-order? I don't believe in either Kickstarter or Pre-order in most cases, and was not surprised to see neither does TB. Take a listen if you're interested.
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htown1980: I am not sure I agree that that is an accurate summary of TB's view.

The impression I got was that TB's view was that crowd funding was more desirable than pre-ordering, because the customers can then have a say as to which games may or may not get made (whereas with pre-orders the publishers have already decided what game will get made and are already paying for it to be made) but only if you have the disposable income to burn.

The biggest problem with kickstarter is people going into it thinking they are preordering a game and not appreciating there is a risk the game will not be made.
True, but you're missing the "in most cases" part of my sentence :) - as yes, he does say in some circumstances, Kickstarters can be a good thing and, like me, he's adamantly against pre-orders but.......:).

What's he's ultimately saying is "UNLESS you have disposable income that you couldn't care less if you lose", and that is very few people let's face it, you should never fund a Kickstarter, no matter which game it may be attempting to fund that would never be made otherwise. Therefore, in most cases, most people should not be funding Kickstarters as they don't seem to be aware of the risks.

He also goes on to say how many Kickstarters, and there are many, are put up by people who have absolutely NO idea about how much a project is going to cost -- so ask for too little money (usually the case) or too much. So the project is doomed from the beginning. And, when you have rabid fans just throwing money at the screen, with NO clue how much a project is going to cost either -- it's a recipe for disaster.

"Assume that money will disappear, and you'll lead a happier life" is how he ends his video :) That's always been my motto -- I donate to causes that I don't care if the money disappears. That way, I'm happily surprised if it doesn't. Not too bothered if it does :)

Like I said, though, while I think some of the developers are either shady or simply clueless about how to run a successful project, the more I think about it the more I'm convinced the owners of Kickstarter are even shadier. After all, if a project fails and thousands of people are out hundreds of thousands, and in rare cases, millions of dollars, Kickstarter should NOT be taking the 10 percent commission. That's just simply wrong, IMO>
Posted August 01, 2013
Kickstarter may be taking a big percentage, but it doesn't mean they are scamming everyone. Don't underestimate the power of its name. If these people were to try crowd funding elsewhere, they wouldn't get anywhere near as much. Kickstarter is well known, and trusted.
Posted August 02, 2013
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MobiusArcher: Kickstarter may be taking a big percentage, but it doesn't mean they are scamming everyone. Don't underestimate the power of its name. If these people were to try crowd funding elsewhere, they wouldn't get anywhere near as much. Kickstarter is well known, and trusted.
So, they get to keep potentially several million dollars a year made from failed projects, while the people who backed the projects lose their money?

Honestly, from what I've seen recently, even in a recent segment on the BBC, they're a lot less 'trusted' than they seem to think they are and, with the likelihood of more Kickstarters failing in the future, my guess is they'll be even less so.

I personally give them two or three years, and have a feeling the site will fold -- either from more and more failed projects or more and more projects just not getting funded (which is currently around 66 percent of all gaming campaigns, btw), as the 'in thing' will simply become yet another failed way to raise funds for the majority of people needing them.

By the way, I've nothing against Kickstarter per se. I do, however, have a huge problem with Kickstarter owners keeping money from a project that caused thousands of people to lose their money. The losses should also apply to Kickstarter, IMO.

Oh and btw, I'm wrong on the 10 percent that Kickstarter takes. The total fees are 10 percent, but that includes up to 5 percent to Amazon. Kickstarter takes 5 percent. Still.....a lot of money for failed projects.

IMO, that money should be kept in an escrow account until the project is delivered. Only then should Kickstarter owners be allowed to pocket it.
Posted August 02, 2013
If someone wants to start a crowdfunding campaign, Kickstarter isn't their only option. Its worth it for them to pay the premium though. They are much more likely to get funded on kickstarter than elsewhere. Yea, kickstarter gets a big chunk of their money. Thats how business works though. Kickstarter provides a service, and at a rate that people are more than willing to pay. They are not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts.

Anyone who starts a campaign knows the risks involved. If they are not able deliver on their promise its not kickstarters fault. Kickstarter shouldn't have to pay anything. I do think that things could be changed up a bit. When you fund a project, your basically investing in it. If it fails, I don't think you should necessarily be able to get your money back. That's not how investing works. The way things are set up now, if a project fails then everything just goes to hell. They need to have a real plan for that possibility.
Posted August 02, 2013
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Bloodygoodgames: "Assume that money will disappear, and you'll lead a happier life" is how he ends his video :) That's always been my motto -- I donate to causes that I don't care if the money disappears. That way, I'm happily surprised if it doesn't. Not too bothered if it does :)
I entirely agree. I have backed three Kickstarter projects so far, and always for the reason that I wanted to back that project, because I enjoy helping people chase crazy dreams. By backing them, I've already got what I wanted, and if any of these projects failed I would think "Oh well, that's too bad, but it was worth supporting anyway." I would never back a project if I didn't think I would feel that way.
Posted August 02, 2013
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Bloodygoodgames: I personally give them two or three years, and have a feeling the site will fold -- either from more and more failed projects or more and more projects just not getting funded (which is currently around 66 percent of all gaming campaigns, btw), as the 'in thing' will simply become yet another failed way to raise funds for the majority of people needing them.

By the way, I've nothing against Kickstarter per se. I do, however, have a huge problem with Kickstarter owners keeping money from a project that caused thousands of people to lose their money. The losses should also apply to Kickstarter, IMO.
In all honesty, i think your wrong and being harsh on KS. Its a business. They aren't a charity. They don't teach projects how to launch, how to run them. Its the individual projects own fault if they cant run things properly and make it successful at the end. If it fails, so be it, they are still have used KS's services (it is a service no matter which way you look at it) - its not KS's problem whether it succeed or fails. And i think many people have already pointed out - people take a risk while donating to a project regardless of KS's fees etc. 66%? i've backed many games personally and only a handful have failed (last count 5 of mine with 2 more probably failing. at least 20 have succeeded. All games). The 'trend' for big ones might be on the wane while people are more wary of where they put their money - choosing ones which are made by more established dev's, which unfortunately will mean indie dev's unless they put out a great sales pitch, will feel the pinch a bit.
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Bloodygoodgames: "Assume that money will disappear, and you'll lead a happier life" is how he ends his video :) That's always been my motto -- I donate to causes that I don't care if the money disappears. That way, I'm happily surprised if it doesn't. Not too bothered if it does :)
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Azilut: I entirely agree. I have backed three Kickstarter projects so far, and always for the reason that I wanted to back that project, because I enjoy helping people chase crazy dreams. By backing them, I've already got what I wanted, and if any of these projects failed I would think "Oh well, that's too bad, but it was worth supporting anyway." I would never back a project if I didn't think I would feel that way.
TB's video is probably the best balanced argument ive seen so far on the whole KS thing.He makes a lot of valid points...
Post edited August 02, 2013 by nijuu
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General discussion (archive)$122,874 Kickstarter down the drain.(110 posts)(110 posts)
(110 posts)