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Partially a reply and commentary on

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/2k_crying_into_a_pile_of_cash_begs_the_people_of_belgum_to_bring_back_lootboxes/page1

with a different argument.

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First, kudos to Belgium for having the guts to do this. Unfortunately, this will never happen in the (now megacorporation-owned) USA simply because "App Store" (and similar) publishers take a cut of all purchases through their stores. Considering how Google's Play Store and Apple's App Store have massive market dominance, lootboxes alone generate a ton of tax revenue which means Washington DC won't do anything about it. This revenue doesn't even include lootbox purchases outside of mobile platforms, of which there are many in the U.S.

Realistically, the most I can see happening to improve the situation in the U.S. is Trump issuing a generic statement about Asian online games treating us very badly, very unfairly with lootbox odds and slapping a tariff on them.

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How many of you want to live in a country where everyone's vote counts and makes a difference? All in favor, raise your hands? Good job, stand up for freedom and self determination. That's the traditional video game market before Japan started poisoning the industry standard with gacha, which later became popularized across Korean and Chinese games and then made its way over to the West as lootboxes.

Think of the free market as a ballot box. Whenever you buy a product, you support the developers and encourage them to keep producing. That's like voting for them. In practice, games larger than indie production grade will have expansions and DLCs. In that case, consider the economy to be a weighted and tiered ballot, where the magnitude of the vote corresponds to the price, and consumers can decide just how strongly they want to support a developer. In the end, the peoples' voice will be heard through collective purchases.

In a Western-style subscription-based MMO, the same principle applies. Everyone pays a similar monthly fee, therefore every customer is treated as valuable and listened to (or at least most devs will pretend to listen).

Now.... how many of you want to live in a country where the government uses your ballots as toilet paper and the voices of a select few oligarchs matter? All in favor, raise your hands. *sees only a handful of wackos raise their hands* "Get these whales out of here and into the psychiatric evaluation unit."

The biggest reason why lootboxes and gacha are so terrible for the future of video gaming is how they subvert the democratic process of the free market.

In the old days, everyone largely paid the same price for a boxed game, and perhaps then some more with an expansion or two. This means that everyone's a valued customer.

With lootboxes and gacha, keeping the majority of customers happy is no longer relevant. Usually, this happens in "freemium" games (99.99% of which are terrible, don't waste your time with them). If you're an F2Per (don't pay), obviously you don't matter to the devs and expect to be treated like freeloading crap. However, due to the skewed and toxic monetization model that lootbox games rely on, players who want a premium experience must be overcharged many times the reasonable price compared to a top-tier subscription-based MMO. It's commonplace for "dolphins" to spend roughly $50 each month on a lootbox games, while whales typically spend anywhere from $1000-$100K.

Obviously the devs are going to custom-tailor the game for the whales while everyone else has a thoroughly crappy experience. Lootboxes and gacha have become the de facto standard in mobile and the practice is spreading to other platforms - and I don't see any good way to stop it other than regulations and laws.

"Convince the app stores to be socially responsible and ban or restrict lootboxes": Doesn't work, the app stores take a cut of the lootbox purchases and they won't shut off such a promising revenue stream.

"Consumer boycott against lootbox/gacha games or devs who engage in such practices": Again, it doesn't work. The problem is how a lot of lootbox whales have a mental predisposition to habitual gambling - which the toxic lootbox business model feeds on. If the rest of us stop paying for this crap, so what? The devs will always have their whales, and they don't need anyone else. This would be similar to a dictator staying in power against the vote of 99% of the people, just because the oligarchs supporting the regime are more equal than everyone else.

This shows that you can't fix the problem from either end of the free market, simply because the nature of lootboxes and gacha is designed to subvert the process. The only solution is laws and regulations restricting the practice, which will produce a better video game market for everyone.
Seems to me it's more to do with marketing than product. Like movies, their opening weekend sales are based on sales, not satisfaction.

There are plenty of approaches other than laws:
"Friends don't let friends buy lootboxes."
"Just say no to lootboxes."
"This is your brain, this is lootboxes... This is your brain on lootboxes."

I'm sure there are plenty more.
The major problem is that governments are too rife with lobbyists and other such hoohah so it would be difficult to get any such laws passed or hell, they maybe corrupted by said lobbyists, a public effort may reduce or cause a drop in lootboxes, but thats the best we can manage,

then again I hardly trust governments, and really with the way things have been in the last 10 years, can you really blame me?
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DivisionByZero.620: The only solution is laws and regulations restricting the practice, which will produce a better video game market for everyone.
Is this really a solution? Lord_Kane is right mentioning government is too rife with governments and special interest groups. How can government regulation be expected to fix the problem when it's actually part of the problem. In a more serious case, look at the divorce industry and the sham of family court and that crap has been going on for decades. There's a reason it's been going on for decades and there's a reason government hasen't revised the law and there are interest groups that don't want those laws to change.

In regards to loot boxes, consumer discretion is the best way to fight this menace. You can't control others behavior but you can control your own. Don't buy loot boxes and don't play games that have them.
low rated
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DivisionByZero.620: Considering how Google's Play Store and Apple's App Store have massive market dominance, lootboxes alone generate a ton of tax revenue which means Washington DC won't do anything about it.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
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IwubCheeze: In a more serious case, look at the divorce industry
Got dumped, have you?
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DivisionByZero.620: Considering how Google's Play Store and Apple's App Store have massive market dominance, lootboxes alone generate a ton of tax revenue which means Washington DC won't do anything about it.
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Starmaker: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
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IwubCheeze: In a more serious case, look at the divorce industry
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Starmaker: Got dumped, have you?
Not me, but I know people who have and what family law has done to them
Post edited September 06, 2018 by IwubCheeze
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IwubCheeze: Not me, but I know people who have and what family law has done to them
Those messy divorce cases one typically hears about are exceptions rather than the rule.

Most divorce cases are trifling at best, especially if the couple settle their differences or leave on amicable terms. Hypothetically, there's no news if I were to divorce my (nonexistant) SO and the only point of contention was with a set of Mr. Spock collectible plates, that can be settled out of court.

Some leech is getting a divorce from a gold digging witch, of course there's going to be talk. They don't care if it tears apart their house, family, or local rotary club, and seeing two idiots primally squabble over a bunch of worthless goods is fine drama.
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Darvond: Most divorce cases are trifling at best, especially if the couple settle their differences or leave on amicable terms. Hypothetically, there's no news if I were to divorce my (nonexistant) SO and the only point of contention was with a set of Mr. Spock collectible plates, that can be settled out of court.
Even if what you say is true (and yes, I know not every divorce is messy), it doesn't matter, the laws are they way they are and they are abused and there are groups that don't want them changed. If I see a dud artillery shell on the ground, I'm not going to play around with it no matter how low likelihood of it exploding.
Post edited September 06, 2018 by IwubCheeze
According to the marketing firm Swrve half of mobile games revenue comes from 0.19% of players. That may be the future of AAA games. It doesn't make a difference if long-term customers go elsewhere because their value is minuscule compared to customers with compulsive disorders who'll take out a third mortgage to fund their addiction. The industry will become built around preying on people with mental health problems.
From loot boxes to divorce courts. This thread is coming super close to being locked. Keep it on the topic of loot boxes and it's fine if not, it's getting locked.
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DivisionByZero.620: The biggest reason why lootboxes and gacha are so terrible for the future of video gaming is how they subvert the democratic process of the free market.

In the old days, everyone largely paid the same price for a boxed game, and perhaps then some more with an expansion or two. This means that everyone's a valued customer.
You know it amuses me to no end, when people complain how free choice "subverts" free market and democracy. For your complain is just one of many.

Seriously, if you don't want to play games that cater to "whales" who spend hundreds and even thousands bucks, just don't play and find developer who is reasonable in uses of lootboxes, or doesn't use them at all. It's like you said - "who wants to live in a country where everyone's vote counts and who wants to live in one where rich decide what to do?" It's your choice to play game or not. Why do you need special laws against games you don't play?
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markrichardb: According to the marketing firm Swrve half of mobile games revenue comes from 0.19% of players. That may be the future of AAA games. It doesn't make a difference if long-term customers go elsewhere because their value is minuscule compared to customers with compulsive disorders who'll take out a third mortgage to fund their addiction. The industry will become built around preying on people with mental health problems.
But mobile games are a different market than AAA games. There's no reason to assume AAA games would follow the same trends.
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IwubCheeze: But mobile games are a different market than AAA games. There's no reason to assume AAA games would follow the same trends.
Unfortunately AAA's are visibly already following the same trend (deliberately stuffing in more "grind for the sake of grind" and crippling fluidity of gameplay whilst "coincidentally" offering pay2degrind micro-transactions that de-cripple it back to normal levels without giving the "buyer" anything new they wouldn't already have if both the grind & pay2degrind MT's weren't there in the first place and the game were made normally...)

That was obvious years ago when post 2010 mobile gaming started offering "gambling rentals" of "monetizing" Match 3 clones like Candy Crush Saga to the tune of $20-$50 MT's per gamer vs flash-based Match 3 originals (eg, Bejeweled, Chuzzle, Zuma, etc) that could be bought outright for $5-$10 from PopCap during 2000-2005. What's happening now is post 2016 AAA games are starting to be more visible about copying the same model. Hence "time-saver" (pay2win / pay2degrind) MT's to skip completely artificial grind that's only that deliberately grindy in the first place precisely because of the existence of "time-saver" MT's...

The "faith" that modern AAA's aren't slowly turning into the junk-side of the Google Play Store regarding "post-purchase monetization as a primary income source" is already shattered.
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AB2012: Unfortunately AAA's are visibly already following the same trend (deliberately stuffing in more "grind for the sake of grind" and crippling fluidity of gameplay whilst "coincidentally" offering pay2degrind micro-transactions that de-cripple it back to normal levels without giving the "buyer" anything new they wouldn't already have if both the grind & pay2degrind MT's weren't there in the first place and the game were made normally...)

That was obvious years ago when post 2010 mobile gaming started offering "gambling rentals" of "monetizing" Match 3 clones like Candy Crush Saga to the tune of $20-$50 MT's per gamer vs flash-based Match 3 originals (eg, Bejeweled, Chuzzle, Zuma, etc) that could be bought outright for $5-$10 from PopCap during 2000-2005. What's happening now is post 2016 AAA games are starting to be more visible about copying the same model. Hence "time-saver" (pay2win / pay2degrind) MT's to skip completely artificial grind that's only that deliberately grindy in the first place precisely because of the existence of "time-saver" MT's...

The "faith" that modern AAA's aren't slowly turning into the junk-side of the Google Play Store regarding "post-purchase monetization as a primary income source" is already shattered.
I won't deny that some devs are trying to push in that direction, or that some games are pushing the "grind, buy loot box or GTFO" philosophy. My argument was it's unlikely the entire AAA industry would move in that direction. Remember the huge backlash against Diablo 3's auction house and EA Battlefront 2's loot box model? Enough of a stink was raised over those two issues and eventually Bliizard shut down the D3 auction house and EA shutdown (temporarily I think, I'm not sure what the status on loot boxes are now) the loot box system that hammered BF2's reception.

AAA games are games for people invested in PC gaming as a hobby and are more likely to be vocal when there's problems with a game they paid for. BTW, I'm making this argument based on the assumption we are not including FTP MMOs here.
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IwubCheeze: AAA games are games for people invested in PC gaming as a hobby and are more likely to be vocal when there's problems with a game they paid for. BTW, I'm making this argument based on the assumption we are not including FTP MMOs here.
EA & Take Two want MT's in all future games:-
http://uk.ign.com/articles/2017/11/08/gta-publisher-plans-to-have-microtransactions-in-all-future-games
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/microtransactions-will-be-in-every-game-says-ea-exec/1100-6383445/

EA also patents bogus-matchmaking to skew gamers towards MT's:-
https://www.pcgamesn.com/ea-matchmaking-microtransactions-eomm-engagement-patent

Eidos Montreal & Activision dedicates itself to online games:-
https://www.techspot.com/news/72368-eidos-montral-dedicates-itself-producing-online-games-now.html
https://www.pcgamesn.com/activision-microtransaction-matchmaking-patent

Plans for future games include AI to deliberately manipulate your gameplay to guide you towards more micro-transactions:-
https://www.techpowerup.com/240655/leaked-ai-powered-game-revenue-model-paper-foretells-a-dystopian-nightmare

Ubisoft Makes A Lot Of Money From Microtransactions, And It Wants More:-
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ubisoft-makes-a-lot-of-money-from-microtransaction/1100-6456734/

I wish I could feel as optimistic as you, but so far every major AAA publisher openly says they intend to not only fill every future AAA game with this cr*p, but make it even worse. Also given 80% of AAA sales are on consoles not PC's, I wouldn't call modern cross-platform AAA games "dominated by PC hobbiests". I don't think that's been true for well over +15 years since consolization started creeping in early 2000's and PC ports of games like Deus Ex 2 or Thief 3 had to be massively watered down to fit "more important" consoles. It was obvious even by 2003 that PC hobbiests had little control over the quality of PC port sequels to prior 90's PC exclusives.

Public "backlash" is mostly now limited to a minority of older more savvy gamers actually capable of comparing pre-2014 vs modern games. The "game-plan" seems to be to deliberately target young kids who grow up playing only new games bought by parents who understand little of what's going on and condition an entire new generation into "normalizing" the belief that MT's are somehow "required for modern games". That many young gamers are already unfortunately conditioned enough to believe that mindless, repetitive, grind or "farming" itself is acceptable enough to rarely criticise it in existing popular shooters, is precisely what's enabling the pay2degrind MT's to be gradually increasingly slipped into future games with less backlash over time than what Diablo 3 generated. Literally, the only thing publishers fear is national legislation declaring lootboxes as gambling, not just for direct lost sales but the indirect effect that has of waking up parents into become more aware of what they're really buying or why kids / young teens are the primary target in the first place.
Post edited September 06, 2018 by AB2012