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amok: question - if boycotting, then all those who are unhappy with the system will not play the game anymore, but find something else. if the "whales" who then are left are happy and enjoy the game and don't mind spending that monies - who are you to dictate that they should not?
Great (yet flawed) counter argument which totally deserves to be addressed.

The problem is that it -does- affect us. When whales pour massive amounts of money into toxic gacha games, it tells the industry that scummy business practices pay off and encourages more of it. That's why we're seeing these toxic practices creeping slowly into other platforms. If it goes unchecked, expect to lose nearly all of the "AAA" publishers to the gacha business model (spoiler: it's happening already).

If we only ignore the whales, then we end up collectively with a money-grubbing low-quality "AAA" video game market that solely caters to .19% of the population. Is that what you want? Oh well, I guess there's always the B-grades and indies.

Think of the gacha whaling as having a "secondhand smoke" effect on the industry and market. The whales are addicted to wasting their wallets, but the indirect consequences poison the market for everyone else.

----

@Linko90: thanks for enforcing on-topic discussion
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dtgreene: I think lootboxes are OK, but only if 2 conditions are met:
1. There must not be any real-money cost, particularly since enforcing that would require some form of DRM (otherwise one could just hack them in)
2. The "box" part is emphasized rather than the "loot" part; in other words, using the box as, for example, a platform to reach higher areas should be more important than the loot contained within.
Hmm. A box to reach higher platforms, or a set of rocket boots from the box to reach higher platforms? Choices, choices...
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Linko90: From loot boxes to divorce courts. This thread is coming super close to being locked. Keep it on the topic of loot boxes and it's fine if not, it's getting locked.
Isn't that a strange way to deal with off-topic talk? Wouldn't it make more sense to hide/remove off-topic posts? It's all nice and well that you want to encourage people to stay on-topic, but locking the thread for everyone seems counterproductive. Hard to have a discussion, on-topic or otherwise, when the thread suddenly goes poof.
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DivisionByZero.620: Exactly. I'm seeing quite a few posts here that are missing the basic argument.
Or maybe it's because the basic argument has been made several times before and didn't turn out the way it was expected.

Television was supposed to replace radio, but that didn't happen.
I already mentioned in the late 90's, there was talk to multiplayer games replacing single player games, that didn't happen
Desktops were supposed to replace mainframes, but that didn't happen.
Laptops were also supposed to replace desktops but that didn't happen.
People now are saying phones will replace laptops but there's no reason to assume that will happen either.
Then we have people on GOG saying "GOG is pushing the Galaxy client on everyone, they're going to be the next Steam", and look, the Galaxy client is still optional.

Just because AAA devs want to push MCs on the market doesn't mean the entire gaming industry will follow suit.

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DivisionByZero.620: Boycotting the scum who throw lootboxes and gacha into everything doesn't do diddly-squat to stop it, because the developers and publishers can always take the whales for granted. Even better (for the industry, and worse for us), this business model largely absolves the developers of responsibility towards the general video gaming community just because only .19% of the players will matter financially.
Boycotting stopped the D3 auction house and the Battlefront 2 loot boxes, that's more than diddly-squat. Not only that, but while AAA devs are pushing for MCs in games, there are still plenty of devs who do not. Even if AAA games go in this direction, that's no reason to assume the entire industry will. Look at GOG's new releases, how many of them were there and how many of them include MCs?

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DivisionByZero.620: From a business perspective, every customer who needs to be kept happy is a liability, and the easiest way to make enough money while keeping these liabilities to a minimum is to prey on people predisposed to gambling addictions and ignore everyone else.
Does that really sound like a long term business strategy to you? Putting your eggs in one basket and all that. Big companies in other industries diversify their market (Samsung for example) so if one market takes a hit, the company will still survive by relying on other markets. So if a dev relies on MCs, and laws are passed banning the practice, they will be screwed. If consumers start boycotting MCs en mass, they will be screwed. If former customers get over their addiction, they will be screwed. Putting all bets on one number because of short term high pay off yet could change at any time is NOT a sound long term business strategy.

Even if what you say is true, watchdog groups are going to get up in arms about things like this, like they always have done. There's going to be publicity about how some guy robbed a bank to buy new skins for his favorite gun, or how a some guy took out a loan to buy some MMO character, or some kid maxing out his parents credit card on loot boxes. If it doesn't change laws, it will at the very least increase customer awareness and get people talking about it

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DivisionByZero.620: And while the money in lootbox games continues to flow, so will the never-ending supply of games that cater to the lowest common denominator. No matter how much you boycott, the big-budget publishers will ignore you as they have that .19% to get rich off. They've spent 2 generations of mobile games cultivating newer gamers into thinking that lootboxes and crappy freemium experiences are the norm via mobile gaming and now is the time to roll it out on other platforms.
And yet PC and console games with an upfront price tag still exist. I've already mentioned that just because the market has this hot new trend doesn't mean that the market will homogenize and follow suit. Mobile gaming has not replaced PC or console gaming and there's no reason to suggest PC or console gamers will ditch their platform for mobile games.

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DivisionByZero.620: Short of demanding new legal restrictions on lootboxes, the best the consumer can do from the free market end is to "vote against" lootboxes: actively support developers who refuse to engage in scummy behavior, encouraging the free market to produce more games according to the traditional business model where everyone is a valued customer who matters.
May I remind you, you also said the following in your first post?
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DivisionByZero.620: This shows that you can't fix the problem from either end of the free market, simply because the nature of lootboxes and gacha is designed to subvert the process. The only solution is laws and regulations restricting the practice, which will produce a better video game market for everyone.
And I'm going to repeat a quote from your last post

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DivisionByZero.620: Boycotting the scum who throw lootboxes and gacha into everything doesn't do diddly-squat to stop it, because the developers and publishers can always take the whales for granted. Even better (for the industry, and worse for us), this business model largely absolves the developers of responsibility towards the general video gaming community just because only .19% of the players will matter financially.
So which is it? In your first post, you said the only solution is laws and regulations restricting the practice as you can't fix the problem from either end of the market, yet in your last post you mentioned what the consumer can do from THEIR end of the market yet in the same post saying boycotting is useless which is a blatant contradiction. People voting with their wallets DOES WORK and it's one of the reasons GOG exists and competes with Steam. People voting with their wallets has also been putting pressure on Disney after The Last Jedi fiasco. There are other examples I'm sure but I think my point stands. I'm pretty sure MCs are here to stay, but I doubt they'll replace the entire gaming industry.
Post edited September 07, 2018 by IwubCheeze
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IwubCheeze: DivisionByZero.620: Just because AAA devs want to push MCs on the market doesn't mean the entire gaming industry will follow suit.
-It also doesn't mean that they won't and the only reliable logic here is that business will follow the path of least resistance to gaining wealth.

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DivisionByZero.620: Boycotting the scum who throw lootboxes and gacha into everything doesn't do diddly-squat to stop it, because the developers and publishers can always take the whales for granted. Even better (for the industry, and worse for us), this business model largely absolves the developers of responsibility towards the general video gaming community just because only .19% of the players will matter financially.

-I don't find the logic that they will be 'absolved' in their abuse, and public scrutiny is why in Australia we have steps taken to try to deal with gambling addiction. It's just that these steps are usually held with the providers of gambling with an equal weight so that they in their being use to exploitation do not suffer the financial harms & burdens that they place onto the weak.
Or to put simply it's not enough to picket for change you have to have force not to have the movement end up subverted and watered down by Governance that would rather the status quo in societies where placation is the average tool in their arsenal.

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DivisionByZero.620: From a business perspective, every customer who needs to be kept happy is a liability, and the easiest way to make enough money while keeping these liabilities to a minimum is to prey on people predisposed to gambling addictions and ignore everyone else.
Does that really sound like a long term business strategy to you? Putting your eggs in one basket and all that. Big companies in other industries diversify their market (Samsung for example) so if one market takes a hit, the company will still survive by relying on other markets. So if a dev relies on MCs, and laws are passed banning the practice, they will be screwed. If consumers start boycotting MCs en mass, they will be screwed. If former customers get over their addiction, they will be screwed. Putting all bets on one number because of short term high pay off yet could change at any time is NOT a sound long term business strategy.
-Except when that business strategy is the new model strategy, where you generate ongoing revenue from what would otherwise be a static one time sale by ensuring the model 'goes out of date' (a.k.a iphones) with functionality deteriorating, breaking down, features being replaced, forced integrated updating, etc.
There is no reason why lootboxing cannot have 'more than one basket' the pc gaming market is not the console market is not the app market.
It only needs to be status quo for it to be unavoidable; then what's the gamers end game?
Because simply put multiplayer has taken over the majority, there have cropped up niche's (DRM free gamers) that are there because of outcry or lack of support (linux gaming), but business is about money not experiences and has always been about getting the most capital value by leveraging a percieved value over an actual value.

Even if what you say is true, watchdog groups are going to get up in arms about things like this, like they always have done. There's going to be publicity about how some guy robbed a bank to buy new skins for his favorite gun, or how a some guy took out a loan to buy some MMO character, or some kid maxing out his parents credit card on loot boxes. If it doesn't change laws, it will at the very least increase customer awareness and get people talking about it.
-Yes and the answer will be self regulation and an awareness campaign; because you have no follow through or actual strength.
If you hold onto your dollars new people will step into gaming because the need for entertainment won't go away; esports won't go away.
The Government that the cash is flowing to might feel a bit of a tax pinch, but predation is profit seeking and will self balance out to an uncomfortable proficiency in exploitation level.
In fact the best thing you can do is try to get more indie devs on board and feeling supported and thankful to have a community behind them; not wasting effort chasing regulation.

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DivisionByZero.620: And while the money in lootbox games continues to flow, so will the never-ending supply of games that cater to the lowest common denominator. No matter how much you boycott, the big-budget publishers will ignore you as they have that .19% to get rich off. They've spent 2 generations of mobile games cultivating newer gamers into thinking that lootboxes and crappy freemium experiences are the norm via mobile gaming and now is the time to roll it out on other platforms.
And yet PC and console games with an upfront price tag still exist. I've already mentioned that just because the market has this hot new trend doesn't mean that the market will homogenize and follow suit. Mobile gaming has not replaced PC or console gaming and there's no reason to suggest PC or console gamers will ditch their platform for mobile games.

-You can say the same about boxed store bought games... oh wait no you cannot because the business model that steam introduced gobled up the titles and forced people buying from storefronts to instead in essence be purchasing through the digital only retailer. Hence why when you go into a store there are five farming simulator style games, 50 steam code with manual if your lucky games (though now you probably just get a web address to it) and the PC section equating to about 1/3rd if lucky of any other single brand of console section.

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DivisionByZero.620: Short of demanding new legal restrictions...
-Dealt with aleady.

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DivisionByZero.620: Boycotting the scum ...
it's one of the reasons GOG exists and competes with Steam. People voting with their wallets has also been putting pressure on Disney after The Last Jedi fiasco. There are other examples I'm sure but I think my point stands. I'm pretty sure MCs are here to stay, but I doubt they'll replace the entire gaming industry.

-I don't think 'competes with steam' is an accurate statement as there are clear market share differences that belieh the natural inbuilt assumption that GOG is on equal footing.
Developers are building games for steam and cutting out parts like multiplayer on other digital platforms and I shouldn't really have to reference GOG list examples for this (I really couldn't be bothered to dig through the site for them again).
Some developers have openly stated in the not too distant past that most of their revenue comes from steam and that catering to the <15% of sales from GOG isn't feasible.
Though I agree voting with your wallet does create force in the free market; but I do not believe that it is as direct as people assume it to work.
It creates a need, that need tentatively is catered to and if exploitable industry shifts to do so.
I don't believe this kind of shift is anything that you'll want.
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IwubCheeze: Boycotting stopped the D3 auction house and the Battlefront 2 loot boxes, that's more than diddly-squat. Not only that, but while AAA devs are pushing for MCs in games, there are still plenty of devs who do not.
It's important to note that Diablo 3's auction house had already been in operation for 2 years before they pulled the plug, much like Middle Earth: Shadow of War's decision to remove lootboxes after 9 months. These companies drain the well dry and let their fanbase think they've won a great victory, just in time for the next game where they can start the dance all over again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOTe6hvZoUo - YongYea newspiece

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IwubCheeze: Even if AAA games go in this direction, that's no reason to assume the entire industry will. Look at GOG's new releases, how many of them were there and how many of them include MCs?
Division is replying to my post, which specifically targets the AAA games market. I don't think he's saying Indi games are heading that way.

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IwubCheeze: Does that really sound like a long term business strategy to you? Putting your eggs in one basket and all that. Big companies in other industries diversify their market (Samsung for example) so if one market takes a hit, the company will still survive by relying on other markets. So if a dev relies on MCs, and laws are passed banning the practice, they will be screwed. If consumers start boycotting MCs en mass, they will be screwed. If former customers get over their addiction, they will be screwed. Putting all bets on one number because of short term high pay off yet could change at any time is NOT a sound long term business strategy.
Samsung is a multinational conglomerate that builds everything from phones to washing machines. Many of the top publishers like EA deal exclusively in videogames. If things go south, they'll switch back. No harm done. Well, except to the thousands of customers with disorders who lost their houses, but pneumonia will only make them stronger.

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IwubCheeze: Even if what you say is true, watchdog groups are going to get up in arms about things like this, like they always have done. There's going to be publicity about how some guy robbed a bank to buy new skins for his favorite gun, or how a some guy took out a loan to buy some MMO character, or some kid maxing out his parents credit card on loot boxes. If it doesn't change laws, it will at the very least increase customer awareness and get people talking about it
Though I admire your optimism, I don't share it. Currently most people can't even wrap their head around the concept of virtual goods.
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amok: question - if boycotting, then all those who are unhappy with the system will not play the game anymore, but find something else. if the "whales" who then are left are happy and enjoy the game and don't mind spending that monies - who are you to dictate that they should not?
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DivisionByZero.620: Great (yet flawed) counter argument which totally deserves to be addressed.

The problem is that it -does- affect us. When whales pour massive amounts of money into toxic gacha games, it tells the industry that scummy business practices pay off and encourages more of it. That's why we're seeing these toxic practices creeping slowly into other platforms. If it goes unchecked, expect to lose nearly all of the "AAA" publishers to the gacha business model (spoiler: it's happening already).

If we only ignore the whales, then we end up collectively with a money-grubbing low-quality "AAA" video game market that solely caters to .19% of the population. Is that what you want? Oh well, I guess there's always the B-grades and indies.

Think of the gacha whaling as having a "secondhand smoke" effect on the industry and market. The whales are addicted to wasting their wallets, but the indirect consequences poison the market for everyone else.
your flawed way of thinking is to assume that the massive game industry think they can survive on these 0.19% of paying customers... yes, they are important for a certain genre (and even then the games in that genre often struggles to survive and gain entry) which you have identified, but it is silly to even think that this is enough for the rest of the industry to survive. let the "whales" play what they want how they want, it will have little influence on the rest of the industry.
Post edited September 08, 2018 by amok
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muttly13: Honest to god, i didnt think I would read about lootboxes and their impact on the free market today. Fascinating stuff. I dont agree, but a great read.

Coincidentally... Seriously? The amount of out-right trash on this forum and you choose this to pick on? Two fascinating things today.
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Linko90: Yeah seriously, almost like there's a rule to keep people on topic.
To even laugh at this would seem ridiculous. You must be new here.


Edit: And oh look, you actually are. Well, welcome to the club. If you are here to clean up, more power to you.
Post edited September 10, 2018 by muttly13