Seeing how "my way" has been proven to work and you are still "coming up" with your way and while you're doing that kids keep dying... yes.

Well, maybe you should not have made obviously bullshit claims about gun laws not working to defend your position which also happens to be the position that gets children killed.

There could be a number of different reasons why more mass shooting happen in America (especially in schools) compared to the EU that may or may not be directly contributed by gun laws or any specific laws that America or the EU has.

And saying it works in the EU so it would without a doubt work in the USA, again ignores that America is not the EU and that amount of guns in circulation is already huge here. It's not a 1:1 issue.

And if we do that and it fails to prevent death, next it will be more guns laws, knife control (which what the mayor of london actually suggest) and number of other reactionary responses that don't solve the root issue.

All I'm saying is slow down, work out something that will actually prevent this stuff, and do so in a way that respects your citizens rights. It can be done, if you don't do that... all you are going to do is piss a lot of people off (nearly 40% of Americans are gun owners), continue to react after the fact, and possibly still not solve the issue and people will still die.

EDIT: Also I've not even saying I'm against having any new gun laws. I'm saying I'm against any new laws that are directly about taking guns always from law abiding citizens that haven't even been proven as a threat to society. There are some new laws that I can get behind that deal with mental health and guns like this one:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/04/02/police-legally-seizing-guns-under-red-flag-laws.html

There is a clear due process, and it's specifically about mental health.

I never made any claims about EU guns laws and schools. But is kind of relevant to this discussion if places like London have similar crime rates to New York (as far as murders) and have way stricter gun laws.

But this is what you fail to realize. Our laws HAVE prevented mass shootings, etc., and violence carried out by certain groups. You just don't hear about them like you do when our laws fail to work. Same can be said about the EU, I recognize strict laws have worked there at times, but I also recognize there are plenty of times they didn't. I also recognize that if we compare the two, that having strict laws may not have the desired results we would hope for anyway so I'm not jumping for joy to experiment with our citizens rights.

Throwing more laws at a problem does not necessarily solve said problem. No more than throwing more money at a problem will solve said problem. I want to solve the root of the issue, and I never said we should do nothing.

There is nothing logical about blaming an inanimate object that is only going to do whatever a person makes it do, and at the end of the day the main root issue will always be flawed human beings. Having the immediate reaction of banning guns or even banning certain guns or more guns laws anytime this happens it is not a rational response because the gun is not the root cause. If we don't approach this from a sane point of view together as a country, we will never get any further than the loud yelling of "guns bad, ban all guns".

What Vainamoinen suggest is a non starter. It has has no hope of ever going anywhere legislatively and is not something I am going to entertain. Other sensible things might though, such as:

* Easier access to mental health
* New laws that make taking guns from people with mental health problems easier
* Possible stronger background checks

Things that can have an impact without directly eroding the rights of Americans.

No different from collecting cars, computers (hello :waves:), movies, or sports memorabilia. You have an interest, you're probably going to collect stuff related to that interest, and replicas don't quite cut it - a Raspberry Pi with an emulator in a shell designed to look like an original Apple Macintosh or 20th Anniversary Macintosh isn't worth very much to me, I'd much rather drool over the Ebay auctions of the original machines I'll never be able to afford.

Yes, directly related to Parkland, where the pupils' demonstrable, laudable, incredible individual initiative — an uphill battle against the cancerous indoctrination of the NRA and the isolationing effects of PTSD, worthy of America and the world's awe and reverence — baffles and even scares their parents and teachers, who are of course the ones to have been pacified into compliance by decades of living under the rule of the NRA.

You are arguing that young gun violence survivors can not fathom the oh so important freedoms that are being eroded when a few little baby steps are taken towards common sense gun laws. I find that view unacceptable, convenient and arrogant.

You are also insinuating that neither parents nor teachers are supposed to address the issue of gun violence or make their stance on the issue clear lest the youth follow in their footsteps. Essentially, by trying to protect the unendangered second amendment, a whole lot of trampling on the first is going on. Caretakers are apparently not allowed to teach their kids empathy, and apparently caretakers are not allowed to teach their kids morals provided they are not pro-gun morals. And if they teach them nothing, of course, the status quo prevails: The absurd gun laws.

Thankfully, the American spirit works against that set of ideas.

The higher the pew pew per minute ratio, the easier the fucking things are to acquire, the bigger the pew reservoir, the more school children end up shot dead when one of their peers pops. The equation is easy to make even without the terminology, which I have refused to use quite on purpose here. The knowledge you need to fathom the issue apparently is another.

I say she fucked that up with the last Roseanne season 22 years ago already.

I say it's a cultural thing. Maybe you shouldn't hang around in an international forum when your bubble is so small? :|

Apparently, successfully, but rest assured, I readily admit I'm not open minded about guns, and I readily admit that I think that the common sense gun laws that the Parkland survivors propose will reduce the deaths from shootings by just about 30 to 40%. Which is worth a whole lot to a country in this kind of civil war.

If you have another idea how to keep the people mowing down civilians in check, I'd be glad to hear them.

Bla bla, standard extreme right wing invalid analogy, bla. But hey, evidently, road rage ceases to be a problem when your cars are not controlled by yourselves any more, so I can see that inalienable right going poof during the next 50 years. Ohhhh the future. Ohhhh treating symptoms when the problem can't be treated. Scary!

We had those or similar laws for decades, and I guess those who really really want to carry longer knives in public would have to have a really good explanation for that. I always carry a knife. It's legal. It would make a really sorry ass knife to stab people with.

* citation needed *

I myself am quite happy that Münster guy didn't have an assault gun (and before any German people step in here, he indeed didn't have one. It was one of the usual Bildzeitungsenten). Though of course the attack itself was not prevented, apparently limited access to guns made the difference between three victims and 48. That's... not nothing. It really isn't.

I'm aware your path is very long and real success isn't exactly at your doorstep thanks to deep rooted nraism. This will take decades. I have high hopes for your country though.

Things the Parkland survivors propose. Things your government will not support or even fund.

You didn't reply to my reply to this strain of argument, although it's rather central to the debate. I'll expand on it a little, if you don't mind. First of all, we have to delete all that second amendment stuff from your posts, because the Parkland survivors don't_want_to_repeal_the_second_amendment and the indoctrination by repetition that you're attempting here will not work.

So, what was the situation here? Right. There was that one Parkland survivor that toured the Foxes and the Sinclairs arguing for more guns (not "for the second amendment", because no one wants to repeal the second amendment, it was just how the Foxes and Sinclairs dishonestly framed the argument, because they're runny rileup propaganda shits). You are saying that other, more old-school republican, more centrist and more left-leaning media, should have shown this "side of the argument" in the same manner Fox reported on the sole guy who thought more guns in school would be swell.

I disagree.

This is a "media bias for fairness" issue, i.e. the media would be portraying an absolute fringe view of a Parkland survivor as having equal weight as the view of the vast majority of Parkland survivors. Two thirds of voters in your country are in favor of stricter gun laws (not of "repealing the second amendment" i.e. the imbecile version of framing the issue). I would assume that when your classmates are being shot up, the idea that you can do with less guns is rather over-represented in that particular school, say 95%, 98% in favor (of stricter gun laws, not of repealing the sec... ahh, now you know, thanks, let's not hear the imbecile form of the argument again)?

Sure, of course, there are Parkland survivors out there who would love more guns to solve the problem. Sure, if Fox digs deep, they may even find another one, or a third one who's willing to go on TV and say so. But when the vast majority is pro more gun control, presenting this as a balanced issue in the media is actually a lie. Giving the fringe perspective equal or even more weight in the media, like Fox has done with a vengeance, would be a distortion of the facts.

Oh but it is. Very, very different. See, if there weren't so many real guns still around over here, maybe they would have let me buy a fucking Blade Runner blaster replica that wasn't superglued to the fucking stand. ;)

No they shouldn't if we are talking about public school teachers. Kids are sent to school to learn school subjects, not to be taught what to believe on life issues. That is what teachers are paid to do. It should mostly be up to the parent to pass their values down to their kids.

All I'm saying is, if you are going to advocate for something, at-least have basic knowledge about the subject.There are many times where someones outlook on an issue can change once they are properly taught about the subject.

Oh my bubble is quite large, I just don't like making silly jokes about people dieing due to their race, but apprantly that is your thing. Seems to be a pattern with left wing people.

So what will be your excuse if we had tough gun laws like EU and this stuff still happens? What is your excuse when it happens in EU? We have strong gun laws to prevent this stuff but sadly we can't prevent all of it?

All I'm saying is if someone has this much hate in their heart they wil find a way to acomplish what they set out to acomplish regardless of laws. We need to fix people and society. Laws won't do that, especially not on their own.

This explains exactly why we will never agree. You are okay with letting government dictate your life, I can understand why it's probably been that way your whole life & that's all you know. Many Americans are not, the less government interference in everyday life the better. We actualy have a saying here "Don't tread on me".

Having said that, again when it comes to guns I am not against new laws. But those laws need to be sensible and measured and not an over reaction that doesn't solve the issue.

I know it might seem like I am, but I'm really not. I'm just against your stance on the issue which seems to be "take away all guns, expecially high powered dangerous ones even if the person who owns it has done nothing wrong and isn't a danger to society".

That's just never going to fly here.

I have hopes that we will continue to do our own thing, regadless of what exactly that is. We are not EU nor should we ever be. But we are flattered by your concern.

No they propose much more than that, but it does include some of what I said, and some of what they want might have a chance like what I posted, but defiently not all of it, not with this congress anyway. And it's not just the Parkland survivors, there are many protesters that what much more than that.

And that isn't exaclty true about government support. At the state level, some of these things are happening. Read the article I posted.

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I'm really not interested in talking about Parkland honestly, it's sad what happen there but it's not going to get us anywhere here in this debate. You're focusing on one group of people, when to be honest this debate is so much bigger than that and it's bigger than what exactly they might want to see happen. The "March For Our Lives" rally only had about 10% of those under 18 even though media narrative tried to paint it as a kids march.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/03/28/heres-who-actually-attended-the-march-for-our-lives-no-it-wasnt-mostly-young-people/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.d30514f67bea

So teachers are not meant to teach moral - and therewith naturally subjective - values? What do you want over there, robots? Please do watch "The Emperor's Club" (Kevin Kline, 2002) sometime.

Conceded. Still, the survey questions asked here were meant to be a trap, and there's no need to be able to name ten types of military style weapons when the rather basic and base mechanics of school shootings are known all the better.

I assure you, that is no joke. The privilege to own exact gun replica doesn't extend to POC in the same way license to carry doesn't prevent them from getting shot by the police. No jokes. Absolutely no jokes.

Gun control reduces the mean number of victims per incident. Free health care, among other things, reduces the number of incidents.

Sure. But ready availability of guns is often the tipping point for killing sprees as well as suicide, and ready availability of assault weapons drives the kill count per incident way up. Those are the facts.

You would have to work on the compliance part yourself.

Your condescension is noted and ignored. You have the most autocratic government, maybe in hundreds of years. They create less freedom for the people daily and more freedoms only for the rich. Time to ponder why that government is preserving present gun rights at all costs. Time to understand that the massive freedoms for a few gun fanatics, the massive freedoms of a few Christian religious fanatics, the massive freedoms of the ultra-rich, they spell nothing but fear, oppression, sickness, poverty, ostracism and despair for more and more other US citizens. That's LESS quality of life, that's LESS freedom. Until the only use for that snazzy gun that you have lying around is to kill yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKDhbdys9f8

They can either "solve" the issue or be "measured", that should have become clear in the meantime. That's why I'm for baby steps. The Parkland survivors propose these baby steps, it's just that the political and media arms of the NRA makes those look like the constitution would be torn to shreds immediately.

I think you would have made your point neatly if you didn't feel the need to exaggerate what you would find to be an exxaggerated position anyway. We both know that "taking away all guns" wouldn't work in the States. We both know that I don't wish for the sport of hunting to go extinct. We both know that a movement that attempts to take away all guns doesn't exist in the States. The only reason why people would exaggerate here is because they desperately need that strawman. They need the outrage, and they need the debate to get lost in the process.

I know. I said so above. Good for you. Because nation wide, likely nothing will.

The media I read didn't paint it as such. But they did make it clear that a good chunk, a little less than a third, were young people (25 or younger; 13% of sample were 19 or younger). Make no mistake, a whole lot of adults took to the streets. But the "kids" were leading the way. Next school shooting, it will be other kids. Yes of course adults have helped organizing the march, yes of course adults were mobilized to march the streets. But all that would have been impossible if the Parkland pupils had hid in their houses, shutter down, which is what victims of gun violence, who suffer from PTSD, usually reliably do.

It is a foolish thing to stubbornly pursue a perceived individuality out of a misinterpreted sense of pride or patriotism when "your own thing" is, in this case, monthly school shootings, and when the reason why "your own thing" is still "your thing" is the lobbying efforts of the NRA while way more than half of the American people have started longing for change.

If you believe that the EU is a gun free zone, please do inform yourself about the lobbying efforts of NRA branches and other gun lobbyists in Europe, about their horrific influence and their reliable excercise of said influence whenever a new restriction is on the lawmakers' table. The whole thing plays out more or less exactly like it would in the States, for exactly the same reasons. Yes, we're starting from a different level. But it's neither a "gun free" level evidently, nor is the only possible way up.

There's e.g. gun lobbyists intransparently influencing German politicians of all parties. There is no anti gun lobby that does the same, because those don't have money and therewith influence. Weapon manufacturers have a huge influence on German politicians (and e.g. their dealings with Saudi Arabia).

We can not lie back and rely on politicians to preserve the relative freedom from gun violence that we do have. For us just as well, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

That is quite rich coming from somebody on the left, an ideology where one is routinely made an outcast if they dare to have free thought or speak their mind when it differs from the ideology and you want to talk about robots?

Have you actually ever been to the USA? I'm going to go out on a limb and say no because you seem to have a view formed by media biases, an outside looking in view if you will, not an actual representation of what it is like to live here.

Don't get me wrong we have our issues with race, but these issues are typically quite rare today, especially when it comes to issues with the police. The vast majority POC that end up having interactions with the police do so with zero issues. And don't get me wrong, there have been clear instance of police wrong doing, but in many cases what the media painted for clicks (which happens a lot because race is always a hot button issue) and what actually happen after all the facts came out were two different things. And like with what normally happens when the facts do come out, it might get a little traction in the media, but nowhere near the traction as the original story did.

Now if you listen to the media every day to get your viewpoint of America you might actually believe you can't walk down the street (or with a legally purchased gun) in America while black without getting shot. But that would be very far from the truth.

Does it? Then why do places like London (with strict guns laws) recently have similar murder rates to New York (also a city with strict gun laws, some of the most strict in the country, that still ranks pretty high on the list of most dangerous cities in the US)? This is a "for the greater good" argument, and that the wrong way to approach any issue. There is plenty of things one could argue imposing for the greater good, but would be morally and ethically wrong to do so.

Well this is a completely overdramatic non-rational look at the current US landscape... should I intern make overdramatic non-rational views on Germany?

Have you actually read the Parkland manifesto and all that it implies? If you did you would know the a lot of it likely has no chance here. There are liberal guns owners who probably wouldn't support all of it. Blaming the NRA anytime gun control fails to go anywhere is a "strawman".

Pot -> kettle. You are the one that pushed forward this discussion from a exaggerated position. And you routinely post exaggerated view points like the one 2 quotes above.

Actually if we are going to take certain steps to solve this, it probably should happen at the state level. Certain states and cities has a far bigger issues with gun crime than say rural America where as you say the "number of victims per incident" is a lot lower. It would make sense to focus more on laws around purchasing guns in other states from where you reside, which we already have but could probably be improved some.

Really? Maybe in Germany, but not here. The media claimed it being a rally for students, by students, rather than what it actually was which prompted even certain liberal news outlets to post stories that show the real stats. And you talk about the organizing like it was an organic thing rather than the backed by large liberal party groups that it was.

It's one thing to say adults helped students express grief during a terrible time and helped them share their voice on the issue compared to big liberal groups with a lot of money and backing paraded survivors to push a political message that they wanted to push to enforce their political beliefs. One is what actually happen and the other is what we say to the gullible and uninformed.

Maybe, but if I'm being honest it has worked out pretty well In our favor. I don't even think you would disagree, that despite any perceived issues, we are regarded as one of the best counties in the world by most of the world and a big reason for that is we are different that most of the world.

"That is quite rich" how you atttempt to present this "perspective" after you have undoubtedly witnessed the diverse right wing strategies employed by the media and politicians to deprive the Parkland survivors of their right to free speech. How they have been called fake, actors, trained, brainwashed, indoctrinated, unamerican, against the constitution, against the second amendment, literally soulless and of course: Nazis and too stupid for college. Just to make them shut the fuck up. Yes, those agitators are indeed robots (sometimes literally, from Russia without love), because I don't see a shred of human empathy in the tireless vilification efforts they are undertaking.

"That is quite rich" is a phrase I've heard so many times from you. But the tu quoque, it's a logical fallacy for a reason: the rhetoric technique ignores the argument that was brought forth. It brings us nowhere in fact. Not even robots could convey knowledge without values. The knowledge is meaningless without the values, the values are tied to the knowledge. He who claims to teach without values indeed does teach, well, literally conservative values. Obedience to the status quo, a grotesquely idealized view of the past, a wildly optimistic view of the present, and a deep seated aversion to change.

They just shot an unarmed black guy in his grandmother's backyard. Several times, in the back. Not sure how the media can paint this any worse than it was.

You're picking carefuly selected statistical spikes and attempt to portray them as the new norm. Not for the first time in a discussion of gun violence, I might add. It's getting boring to always research all the stuff that you really should have researched yourself. But, yawn, for the record, London's murder rates have been higher than New York's in 2018, in the first quarter only, and for the first time in recorded history, not "recently". Take a look at 2017, a year of utter chaos, destabilization and war on the soiled stage of the world, and compare those murder rates in NY and London. Heeeeere we go. I apologize for ignoring the argumentative vermicular appendix attached to the misleading application of statistics, but that is one privilege you're not getting.

Yet another one?

It won't fit in your head, but I in fact don't support all of it. But I guess the kids have, in the meantime, understood that giving the authorities more rights and more surveillance opportunities when their POC allies aren't trusting those authorities for shit, is a really bad idea.

Sure, start wherever you can. Trump has taken over 30 million $ from the NRA and the NRA has invested in an uncounted number of TV spots - which doesn't count as campaign contributions to my knowledge - to help elect him. Nothing whatsoever will happen nation wide (except, maybe, video game censorship). Your only chance is the state level.

It was. It is. It will be again.

You have TV channels dedicated exclusively towards spreading the belief that owning big powerful guns is the only freedom worth having. Gun insanity is the norm, it's the status quo. And as there's no money in anti-gun ideology, no application of the capitalist principle, naturally those particular interest groups are sincerely underfunded. The gun fanatic voices are so loud, so drowning, so constant that apparently nothing besides a protest a million American citizens strong would even make you listen. I am not surprised that a protest so massive that even you become aware of it must be perceived as staged at all costs.

Two thirds for gun control now. Two thirds. Next big school shooting, it will be more.

I am very sorry, but "the world" in 2018 either thinks the US is hilariously incompetent or dangerously erratic. It gets worse every week and for a very good reason. Y'all are well aware that this is happening, that the US leadership right now is dismantling an image that was carefully supported for a very, very long time, constantly, regardless whether the leaders were Rep or Dem. "The world is laughing about us", that's not an empty phrase, nor is it uttered only by left-leaning US citizens. The spirit of cooperation has made the country great, in particular the spirit of international cooperation, and that spirit is dead.

Is this the grand finale in the "you don't even know what it's like over here" argumentative angle, the "foreigners are trying to influence US policy" conspiracy nonsense?

It's been a while, but yes, absolutely, I have spent quite a bit of time in the US, the first time was in 1989. I've personally witnessed cultural differences and shock, and not just when at 14 I turned up to a Pataskalan pool in a banana hammock. And, yes, I've been to Compliance Central for the youth back then, to Sunday School, we discussed circumstance and God's Plan, wasn't that awesome as fuck and not the least bit fatalist. I guess my mother thought that all those trips to my aunt would widen my horizon but, in retrospect, I guess we both have come to understand that widening one's horizon can't happen when you meet narrow minds almost exclusively.

My aunt and authentic "uncle Bob" – who has voted Republican his entire life, except in the last election, and is quite a bit of an anti-gun and anti-alcohol nazi – are living in Ohio. Their five kids have spread all through the US in the meantime, and only the oldest of them are still able to speak German with a heavy accent. My aunt quips she now has a son-in-law called John in Jamestown and one called James in Johnstown. James is the army guy. Not sure whether I like that buzz cut on his first born son, I tell ya. I keep losing track of the children my cousins themselves have produced in the meantime, but I'm "going on a limb" saying seven, and boy do they want big families each. I'll meet all of them in June, discussions of the "American situation" abound! Somehow they think marriages are so damn important that they're coming over in bulk. And, of course, I will finally meet some young forum folks from Wisconsin in May (in Bavaria though; I will not visit the US under Trump). I've been falling in love with those folks. We've been chatting a whole bunch particularly about this issue, and have been doing so since 2013. They, of course, are big fans of the Parkland kids, and have each suffered quite some fallout with their parents over the Republican landslide towards extremist and misantropist positions. Such is, I hear, the rift between the young and the old in Wisconsin. And quite some other states, too.

One of the central influences and windows into the American soul that I have to name, of course, is my university teacher of old, the great Bill, who left this world at age 53 a few years ago. He was there for us and for our many questions when the towers fell and countless senseless wars ensued. And he said fuck a whole bunch. I remarked on his constant swearing in an essay about prejudices against Americans (!) once. I still have that essay: He graded it "fuck you". There was a great, great man who did think his country was great, and who did have a great heart, but also a lot of scorn for the deep rooted bigotry right where he grew up.

Yet another great authentic source for stories about how fucked up things are in the US is of course the man, the legend, tinyE!

https://www.gog.com/forum/general/so_thoughts_on_gun_control

Just sayin'...

Congratulations on the step towards freedom in the Sina Weibo fiasco, by the way. No sarcasm, I mean it.

Clearly they were not deprived of their right to free speech if they got to speak.

Eh? Pretty sure you haven't because a) we hardly ever talk / debate and b) it's not something I say often.

Now compare the amount of bad outcomes like this per year to the amount of police in the america and their amount of interactions with POC per year. Now If we remove those bad outcomes that were clearly justified; we can probably safely say amount of bad outcomes like this where the police officer was at clearly at fault is statically quite low.

I agree there are bad police officers, and they should be held accountable for their actions, but by large police do a good job. I can't speak about the man shot in the back though, as I don't know much about what happened or even what has been reported. It may or may not be a justified use of force, being shot in the back does not necessarily mean the police were in the wrong, but again I don't know everything that happen or if the guy was armed or not.

This is irrelevant. Doesn't matter if it was in 2018 only or a few years. The fact that London (with such strict guns laws) has more than or even similar murder rates is alarming and clearly shows evidence that strict guns laws don't necessarily prevent death or murders on a large scale.

Data says otherwise.

We do? I mean I guess Fox News fits that... sometimes. But by large pretty much all media / TV programs in america are liberal. I mean I guess some TV shows or movies could fit, but get real they are produced by Hollywood, one of the most liberal places in existence.

And yet people are still trying to get in.

Nope, just curious.

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This will probably be my last post on this issue. We are going in circles now so time to wrap this up peacefully while we still can. Have a good day / night / whatever.

I worry how political this forum gets...

Oh, used to be worse.