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General discussionWhy hasn't RTS game AI advanced?(62 posts)(62 posts)
(62 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 02, 2016
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Crosmando: Just got to the Croatia mission, oh fuck this game, there's no way in hell Nod has enough money to throw massive attacks at my base with hordes of expensive stealth unit. Like every 5 minutes, a dozen stealth tanks/buggies/scorpion tanks attack my base. And that's just the right side, on the left they attack with hordes of infantry, stealth dudes, rockets and Black Hand. There's no possibility they have the money for all that when the tiberium fields near my base are depleted and all I can afford are defenses.

Fuck EA, Tiberium Sun cheated but never this bad.
Yeah, that's the fun one. I think the income is pretty accurate to what they throw at you, it's just that they're attacking from three bases, one of which is an air base that rarely loses units. The infantry attack is pretty cheap, so the three mining bases just about add up.

My only successful tactic for that mission has been to load up 8 APCs with 4 gunners, 3 grenadiers, 1 engineer, and just drive them straight into the Nod infantry base to the southwest, then capture its construction yard. Don't try to save your own MCV until you're fully secure, it's too hard.
Post edited January 02, 2016 by wpegg
Posted January 02, 2016
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TheSaint54: Weak AI is one of the reasons I haven't played an RTS in a long time. I do seem to remember Rise of Nations AI was pretty darn good.

About the only RTS still in my wishlist at this time if Men of War Allied Assault as I have read, while path finding is horrible , the AI puts up a heck of a fight - not sure though. With that said, I also think part of the reason I remain interested is due to the action element that allows you to take control of any soldier.

While tedious (I played the developers old title Soliders At War) it can help with some AI issues of your own force.

All in all, I really don't know why the AI in RTS games has not progressed. When I have looked at some of the RTS competitions online it always seems (to me at least) that the players are using a set number of strategies with if commands in their head (if opponent does this, do this). This to me is just an advanced form of AI anyway :)
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tinyE: The OP is on crack.
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TheSaint54: LOL.. You always seem to be doing a comedy set... Rodney Dangerfield incarnate "No respect I tell ya, no respect"
I'm serious. :D There is a lot of shit AI in RTS, but then that can be said of all genres. What I'm a little upset about is that it comes off as a blanket statement which simply isn't true.

Off the top of my head try the Settlers games. The enemies run out of resources all the time in those games and a lot of the time I win those battles is by cutting off their supply lines.

WW3 Black Gold, while only average as an RTS has very realistic enemy AI much in the same regard as Settlers.

I don't mean to cut Crosmando a new asshole because I like him, I just don;t think he is being entirely fair.
Posted January 02, 2016
Never played Settlers because it looked like a management type game and not the type when you blow up stuff.
Posted January 02, 2016
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Crosmando: Never played Settlers because it looked like a management type game and not the type when you blow up stuff.
Well there is the management stuff, which kind of turned me off too, but the later ones like 3 & 4 sway more toward pillaging and killing. :D
Posted January 02, 2016
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wpegg: Yeah, that's the fun one. I think the income is pretty accurate to what they throw at you, it's just that they're attacking from three bases, one of which is an air base that rarely loses units. The infantry attack is pretty cheap, so the three mining bases just about add up.

My only successful tactic for that mission has been to load up 8 APCs with 4 gunners, 3 grenadiers, 1 engineer, and just drive them straight into the Nod infantry base to the southwest, then capture its construction yard. Don't try to save your own MCV until you're fully secure, it's too hard.
I'm going to just cheat (just like the enemy is) and give myself credits just so I can get a few Mammoths with railguns and knockout the bases.
Posted January 02, 2016
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Crosmando: Just got to the Croatia mission, oh fuck this game, there's no way in hell Nod has enough money to throw massive attacks at my base with hordes of expensive stealth unit. Like every 5 minutes, a dozen stealth tanks/buggies/scorpion tanks attack my base. And that's just the right side, on the left they attack with hordes of infantry, stealth dudes, rockets and Black Hand. There's no possibility they have the money for all that when the tiberium fields near my base are depleted and all I can afford are defenses.

Fuck EA, Tiberium Sun cheated but never this bad.
I think you need a better RTS. I think you need this
Posted January 02, 2016
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TheSaint54: Weak AI is one of the reasons I haven't played an RTS in a long time. I do seem to remember Rise of Nations AI was pretty darn good.

About the only RTS still in my wishlist at this time if Men of War Allied Assault as I have read, while path finding is horrible , the AI puts up a heck of a fight - not sure though. With that said, I also think part of the reason I remain interested is due to the action element that allows you to take control of any soldier.

While tedious (I played the developers old title Soliders At War) it can help with some AI issues of your own force.

All in all, I really don't know why the AI in RTS games has not progressed. When I have looked at some of the RTS competitions online it always seems (to me at least) that the players are using a set number of strategies with if commands in their head (if opponent does this, do this). This to me is just an advanced form of AI anyway :)

LOL.. You always seem to be doing a comedy set... Rodney Dangerfield incarnate "No respect I tell ya, no respect"
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tinyE: I'm serious. :D There is a lot of shit AI in RTS, but then that can be said of all genres. What I'm a little upset about is that it comes off as a blanket statement which simply isn't true.

Off the top of my head try the Settlers games. The enemies run out of resources all the time in those games and a lot of the time I win those battles is by cutting off their supply lines.

WW3 Black Gold, while only average as an RTS has very realistic enemy AI much in the same regard as Settlers.

I don't mean to cut Crosmando a new asshole because I like him, I just don;t think he is being entirely fair.
This is common. I attribute it to most gamers using the term RTS to only mean games evolved from Dune 2. I rarely bother discussing the term RTS anymore.
Posted January 02, 2016
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Matewis: I think you need a better RTS. I think you need this
I've played it, both the main game and expansions. I liked them because of the large amount of factions and the fact that there's no real "resource/worker harassment" because you get money from holding points.
Posted January 02, 2016
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Crosmando: After all these years RTS games still create increased difficulty by giving the AI cheats; You can take out all their refineries/workers and somehow they still spit out hordes of units when they shouldn't have any money.
IIRC, that wasn't the case at least in KKND and KKND 2, and they aren't even new RTS games. In fact, one of the most important tactics was try to hit to the enemy refineries and tankers ASAP. The enemy would try its best to regain the supply chains but if you were able to prevent them from doing that, quite soon the enemy would run out of oil (money) and couldn't produce more units.

When I read the thread title, I was expecting a complaint more along the lines that the enemy units should be more clever, like sometimes fleeing and regrouping if they see that they can't break into your base in one stream, and maybe try some other route. That is harder to implement I guess, and it could be the game becomes too hard or laborious for most players.

I recall the complaints back in the late 90s why the enemy guards in Thief: The Dark Project don't act more like real guards, e.g. sounding an alarm if they see someone keeps putting out torches, or locking down the whole castle if they ever saw an intruder, etc. I felt back then too they'd just make the game too hard, not fun. The Thief game could easily become impossible to play with too smart guards.
Post edited January 02, 2016 by timppu
Posted January 02, 2016
Play Starcraft 2 on Brutal and Elite. Then come back and write here.
Posted January 02, 2016
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Crosmando: After all these years RTS games still create increased difficulty by giving the AI cheats; You can take out all their refineries/workers and somehow they still spit out hordes of units when they shouldn't have any money.
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timppu: IIRC, that wasn't the case at least in KKND and KKND 2, and they aren't even new RTS games. In fact, one of the most important tactics was try to hit to the enemy refineries and tankers ASAP. The enemy would try its best to regain the supply chains but if you were able to prevent them from doing that, quite soon the enemy would run out of oil (money) and couldn't produce more units.

When I read the thread title, I was expecting a complaint more along the lines that the enemy units should be more clever, like sometimes fleeing and regrouping if they see that they can't break into your base in one stream, and maybe try some other route. That is harder to implement I guess, and it could be the game becomes too hard or laborious for most players.

I recall the complaints back in the late 90s why the enemy guards in Thief: The Dark Project don't act more like real guards, e.g. sounding an alarm if they see someone keeps putting out torches, or locking down the whole castle if they ever saw an intruder, etc. I felt back then too they'd just make the game too hard, not fun. The Thief game could easily become impossible to play with too smart guards.
If I was one of the guards I would be far more concerned with the extremely rapid moss growth problem in certain parts of the castle.
Posted January 02, 2016
Play Grey Goo.
Or Barbarian AI (aka Barbie) for AoE2 : the Conquerors (non HD edition)
Posted January 02, 2016
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wpegg: One other reason you rarely see a good AI in the single player experiences for RTS games is that you very rarely start out even. If there were a mission that was "The enemy just landed a construction yard, we've just landed yours too, it's a race guys" then that would justify some heavier AI as you tend to be able to get in the skirmish versions of the games. However in most levels of RTS games I've played, the enemy is established and all factories and unit producing buildings are up. You couldn't apply an AI intent on just killing you as it would be massively one sided.
Dawn of War Dark Crusade does that quite a lot. Both sides start with unit they bring into battle and have to build up.
It was nice. :-)


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Crosmando: Tiberium Wars
Yeah, this game is bad in that regard. I played it last year (2015, oh those were the times) and I too noticed that AI barely harvest in most missions. In fact, in most of them not at all. I think they couldn't be bothered to put proper work into it so they just let AI to have huge pile of money instaed of gathering it.
No surprise they later even scrapped resource gathering in CnC 4 altogether.
Posted January 02, 2016
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Shadowstalker16: Play Grey Goo.
As soon as its on GoG I'll get a copy.
Posted January 02, 2016
Been waiting for Grey Goo to come to GOG for ages now, it looks like my ideal RTS (slower gameplay, playing defensively is a viable strategy, etc.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionWhy hasn't RTS game AI advanced?(62 posts)(62 posts)
(62 posts)