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General discussionWho Is In Charge Of Game Vetting Here? (88 posts)(88 posts)
(88 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 26, 2021
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Timboli: P.S. Maybe you haven't seen the threads about this?
About the need to work directly from Poland? I've seen couple of those plus some job offers. And I agree, GOG should be quite famous in Poland with many people eager to join the team.
Posted May 26, 2021
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thefallenalchemist: I won't and I'll tell you why. You had a case of sour grapes from a company that was just getting off the ground. I have not had one issue with them recently that wasn't rectified. Obviously, they have changed a great deal since any of this happened. It's 2021 and they're doing well. Your sour grapes issue in the past several years ago does not reflect on the current state of the company, and yes, they do things right now. Perhaps you should get over your case of sour grapes that happened ages ago and check them out now. Times change and companies do as well.
No, they were pretty established at the time this happened. You're assuming this happened at the time of those bundles. As I said, they had no interest in fixing it because those bundles weren't making them any money any more.
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kohlrak: Given these responses youv'e been getting, have you considered checking the links in your account?
What, you think suddenly they've had a priority shift and have decided to fix those links?

In all likelihood, if I check those links they still won't be working. Then I'll feel freshly pissed off about it instead of distantly pissed off. No thanks.
Post edited May 26, 2021 by my name is capitayn catte
Posted May 26, 2021
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thefallenalchemist: I won't and I'll tell you why. You had a case of sour grapes from a company that was just getting off the ground. I have not had one issue with them recently that wasn't rectified. Obviously, they have changed a great deal since any of this happened. It's 2021 and they're doing well. Your sour grapes issue in the past several years ago does not reflect on the current state of the company, and yes, they do things right now. Perhaps you should get over your case of sour grapes that happened ages ago and check them out now. Times change and companies do as well.
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my name is capitayn catte: No, they were pretty established at the time this happened. You're assuming this happened at the time of those bundles. As I said, they had no interest in fixing it because those bundles weren't making them any money any more.
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kohlrak: Given these responses youv'e been getting, have you considered checking the links in your account?
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my name is capitayn catte: What, you think suddenly they've had a priority shift and have decided to fix those links?

In all likelihood, if I check those links they still won't be working. Then I'll feel freshly pissed off about it instead of distantly pissed off. No thanks.
Suit yourself. They just dropped a MASSIVE Humanoids comic bundle today.
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thefallenalchemist: Don't tempt me. CDPR stock is only $164 a share right now. You want me to become a stockholder in order to have decision making power? I will.

But aside from that, you are the only one who doesn't seem to go with what I'm saying here about customers having a voice (try working retail and then get back to me, buddy). Customers definitely have a voice. Customers are what business is built on, not the shareholders. Now you can be mad about the anime novels all you want, it doesn't disprove my point about the power of the consumer in a market.

Of course, yes I can go somewhere else. But sir, that is the worst thing that any storefront EVER wants to hear. That's called a lost sale and lost sales hurt the front-end quite a bit. Businesses exist to make money, and people like you and me give them money for products that are in demand. Supply = Demand. Don't make me start posting Milton Friedman's "Free To Choose" series in here, or the audiobook of Thomas Sowell's Basic Economics. You'll learn the power of the customer soon enough.

And let me tell you something about Karens. You can get upset at these people all you like as well, but statistics show that while women in the west make 18.5 billion dollars a year, they spend 28.5 billion dollars a year. Karen spends more than she makes, which is bad for her, but good for the global marketplace. Because of these complaints, things get remedied and those remedies equal out to a better shopping experience for all. GOG is a store, after all. It has a checkout page and offers receipts. So if I'm making a product complaint, just like any customer I have dealt with, it should be remedied in the best way possible. And in the quickest way possible.

No one likes an angry, unsatisfied customer. They tend to not come back, like our fellow and his sour grapes over Groupees. Those were the complaints of an angry, unsatisfied customer. Nothing they can do will bring him back, he's lost their business. A good business means keeping a strong consumer base all of the time. Find what your customers like and keep giving it to them. They'll keep coming back and recommend your business to others. That's how people actually make money. It keeps the shareholders happy, the publishers happy and all those other people in the middle happy. Because what do they want?

Well, they want MONEY. So if you can keep their pockets stuffed with cash, they'll usually be as quiet as a church mouse.

And how do you do that? By giving consumers what they want at a fair and reasonable price. And by providing great customer service each and every time. You want them coming back. Those customers have a voice and everything they say should matter. If someone is not happy in a comment section, big retail stores will work to rectify it. If you bought some candy and it tasted horrible, the company would either refund your money and/or they would give you a year's worth of free candy coupons.

Now, that's not what I want. I don't want free candy coupons. What I want is more transparency regarding games here on the site and I want to know that the consumer's voice is respected. After all, if no one bought any games on GOG, then GOG would not have a business. So we're just as important as anyone else you've named, if not more so.
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Orkhepaj: I think you are very wrong with all of this
you sound more like an consumer activist than someone who works in this field
a company has to balance customer retention with its costs, its possible future spending and new customers all the time
a company can go minimal with retaining old customer in favor of new ones like gog does atm :) guess why galaxy is pushed, even if many here hate it

while companies care for their customers at least for their money they don't care for forum complaints that much or at all and that's good as most customers dont even know what they really want and would just leave if company would obey their crazy requests

"You'll learn the power of the customer soon enough." what does that even suggest?
Sir, I do work in the field and at one of the largest retailers in the world. I understand the power of the customer and how even their smallest complaint can cost me my position. You're speculating that most customers do not know what they want, this is silly as economics and the rule of supply and demand negate this. Customers come in all the time knowing what they want. They directly ask me for this product and that one. They show me their smart phones to verify the product that they want is in stock. Customers know exactly what they want. Stop making excuses and pretending you know how economics, the market and consumers operate and take the L. Just take the L.

Also, CDPR stock dropped down to $11.10. I'm not kidding, it had a major dip. If I need to be a stockholder to get them to listen to me, then that is now easier than ever. I can buy a hundred shares right now.
Post edited May 26, 2021 by thefallenalchemist
Posted May 27, 2021
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thefallenalchemist: snip
Thanks for answering.

The issue is those stats on Steam are only known by the gamedev / publisher and Valve. Tools like SteamSpy can only get within 10% of accuracy for games over 10k copies sold. Its creator, Galyonkin, also advised that companies shouldn't be making financial decisions over its stats - probably to avoid liability issues. But ultimately, it's up to gamedevs and publishers to voluntarily share that info with GOG or the public if they're privately owned.

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kai2: There have always seemed to be serious issues with GOG's game vetting... and the entire vetting process has only become "worse" with COVID.
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Timboli: I don't doubt for a moment that staffing levels and issues have been hugely impacted by COVID.
[Speculation] Companies have had the past year to adapt, which is quite generous. A lot of non-small businesses can adapt quickly to crises by throwing money at the issue (video conferencing, WFH office subsidization, etc.). Their 2020 stats revealed how they approved an extra 105 (+28%) games compared to 2019. Although correlated, it appears the pandemic wasn't a significant factor in how many games are approved in their curation process (though not proven).

In contrast, people needed to be at their offices to test CP2077 on proprietary PS4 / XOne devkits, so that was a significant factor on why their versions turned out poorly. If the PC versions were more stable because staff can work from home, it's reasonable to assume the GOG curation team were also able to test applicants on their own WFH PCs. If your staff are somewhat tech literate with operating Zoom / Skype / Discord and using a PC, WFH is absolutely do-able with a decent internet connection.

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thefallenalchemist: snip
We don't know who the bottleneck is in the communication chain. It could be GOG rejecting them or the gamedev / publisher refusing to publish on GOG on various reasons. Maybe:

- The game won't sell well based on GOG's demographics and economic analysis
- GOG's flat 30% cut is too high compared to Steam's sliding cut based on volume sales
- GOG's backend is too much work to maintain
- The economics don't match up for gamedev / publisher's products
- Maybe the gamedev / publisher (and its investors) doesn't believe in DRM-free business model

There are too many unknowns, but having GOG be transparent on this would really relieve a lot of accusations here though I don't know if that is professional or not. (If any game journalist reading this has the time and effort to compile reasons and stats of all the applicants, it'd be very interesting to see!)

And you're assuming GOG has a lot of market share and can throw its weight around. My last estimate was 0.27% of the total PC digital distribution platform. DRM-free is still very niche for consumers because of a general unawareness or it being a trivial factor compared to the entire product experience Steam provides. Yes, money talks, which is why all the gamedevs publish on Steam without any hassle instead of on GOG. We simply aren't big enough, in numbers or revenue, to have leverage.

Overall, you have good sentiments I agree with, though more data would better support your case. GOG is far from perfect, but there are real economic and logistical hurdles explaining things are the way they are today. That's why I try to mention the benefits of GOG and DRM-free elsewhere to grow the base, bug gamedevs / publishers to ask to publish on GOG, and express thoughts through wishlists and discussions to persuade possible decision-makers. You could also go about other ways too through boycotting GOG or viral, social movements too.
Post edited May 27, 2021 by Canuck_Cat
Posted May 27, 2021
It is because GOG is very...spotty, that I no longer recommend their store to developers or customers. I think someplace like Itch is better, since there aren't gatekeepers to prevent a developer from releasing their game. While not strictly dedicated to DRM-free, I have the impression that most developers on the platform don't opt for that. To me, Itch simply feels more "open" than GOG.
Posted May 27, 2021
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thefallenalchemist: […]
Good PR that listens to people and addresses their claims professionally, no matter how unprofessionally they're asked is worth it's weight in gold.
[…]
So they are listening. All that I ask is for more transparency. That's it.
It should be standard procedure to add a comment to a wishlisted item with an update (with or without previous comments, as applicable) from Gog as to what prevents the product from being listed for sale. Categories would hide the comercial-in-confidence details, so the update could even be a traffic-light type system (red light = legal / technical obstacles, for instance) which might soothe some of the irritation, sì?
Posted May 27, 2021
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Sabin_Stargem: It is because GOG is very...spotty, that I no longer recommend their store to developers or customers. I think someplace like Itch is better, since there aren't gatekeepers to prevent a developer from releasing their game. While not strictly dedicated to DRM-free, I have the impression that most developers on the platform don't opt for that. To me, Itch simply feels more "open" than GOG.
And that's why I don't buy there anything :P
that store is a mess
Posted May 27, 2021
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Canuck_Cat: [Speculation] Companies have had the past year to adapt, which is quite generous. A lot of non-small businesses can adapt quickly to crises by throwing money at the issue (video conferencing, WFH office subsidization, etc.). Their 2020 stats revealed how they approved an extra 105 (+28%) games compared to 2019. Although correlated, it appears the pandemic wasn't a significant factor in how many games are approved in their curation process (though not proven).

In contrast, people needed to be at their offices to test CP2077 on proprietary PS4 / XOne devkits, so that was a significant factor on why their versions turned out poorly. If the PC versions were more stable because staff can work from home, it's reasonable to assume the GOG curation team were also able to test applicants on their own WFH PCs. If your staff are somewhat tech literate with operating Zoom / Skype / Discord and using a PC, WFH is absolutely do-able with a decent internet connection.
Mmmm depends what you mean by adapt. They clearly wanted potential employees to move to Poland for whatever reason. Bit hard to adapt, if that is the only acceptable type of employment by them.

Like all game sellers, they no doubt benefited from all the game sales in 2020 due to COVID.

They also no doubt had an increased workload, and CP2077 development would have played a part for sure, and the months just prior to its release seem to bear that out.

In reality, none of us know exactly what went on and the reasons for why they do things the way they do or did.

Maybe they even used the COVID impact to get an extra leg up financially, by keeping employment low.

All speculation.
Posted May 27, 2021
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Timboli: Mmmm depends what you mean by adapt. They clearly wanted potential employees to move to Poland for whatever reason. Bit hard to adapt, if that is the only acceptable type of employment by them.
They currently have a job posting for a termporarily remote California-based bizdev manager here. From this, we can extract better speculation clues from that and their careers page.

Daily communication with GOG's global team (based in Warsaw, Poland) to ensure close collaboration and synchronization on global business development operations and the company’s strategy.

Ability to travel, including international travel to our Warsaw HQ.
It's possible GOG still places emphasis on traditional in-person business culture. Tax regulations don't seem to be a factor as previously suspected in other threads since they're willing to temporarily hire American-based talent. So you can narrow it down to company culture and possibly benefits reasoning.

Like all game sellers, they no doubt benefited from all the game sales in 2020 due to COVID.
Yes, their revenue 2.11x'd and net profit 6.92x'd compared to 2019. Board report here (p.102).

They also no doubt had an increased workload, and CP2077 development would have played a part for sure, and the months just prior to its release seem to bear that out.
Affecting CDPR significantly, yes. But I don't think so for GOG side except for CP2077 refunds from December 2020 - March 2021. CDPR and GOG are sister companies, but I believe they operate largely independently unless when they're forced to work together from a higher up.

In reality, none of us know exactly what went on and the reasons for why they do things the way they do or did.

Maybe they even used the COVID impact to get an extra leg up financially, by keeping employment low.

All speculation.
This can be semi-verified. They're hiring now, so that eliminates your suspicion of keeping employment low. You can view archives of their career postings here. Postings change periodically.
Post edited May 27, 2021 by Canuck_Cat
Posted May 27, 2021
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Sabin_Stargem: It is because GOG is very...spotty, that I no longer recommend their store to developers or customers. I think someplace like Itch is better, since there aren't gatekeepers to prevent a developer from releasing their game. While not strictly dedicated to DRM-free, I have the impression that most developers on the platform don't opt for that. To me, Itch simply feels more "open" than GOG.
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Orkhepaj: And that's why I don't buy there anything :P
that store is a mess
Have you seen the games here, lately?
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Orkhepaj: Thats not how things work , consumers can say they like this or that and companies just ignore it (gladly) as most of those are just whining from self entitled people(Karens)
If consumers don't like the company , they are free to choose another store.
You do realize the karens are shareholders, right?
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Canuck_Cat: This can be semi-verified. They're hiring now, so that eliminates your suspicion of keeping employment low. You can view archives of their career postings here. Postings change periodically.
WOuldn't that actually confirm the theory?
Post edited May 27, 2021 by kohlrak
Posted May 27, 2021
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kohlrak: WOuldn't that actually confirm the theory?
In 2019, there were 172 GOG employees (p.20). In 2020, there were 214 GOG employees (p.21). So yes, now it's verified with how they hired 42 more people (+24%).
Post edited May 28, 2021 by Canuck_Cat
Posted May 27, 2021
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Sabin_Stargem: I think someplace like Itch is better
o.O Yeah, no. That store needs some serious re-organization first. Unless a person knows exactly what they're looking for good luck finding stuff.
Posted May 27, 2021
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Sabin_Stargem: I think someplace like Itch is better
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Mr.Mumbles: o.O Yeah, no. That store needs some serious re-organization first. Unless a person knows exactly what they're looking for good luck finding stuff.
Considering that Itch makes it easy to sort games using tags, I think that isn't a issue.

That said, what makes Steam or GOG more organized by your standard?
Posted May 28, 2021
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Sabin_Stargem: It is because GOG is very...spotty, that I no longer recommend their store to developers or customers. I think someplace like Itch is better, since there aren't gatekeepers to prevent a developer from releasing their game. While not strictly dedicated to DRM-free, I have the impression that most developers on the platform don't opt for that. To me, Itch simply feels more "open" than GOG.
Yeah, but itch is the total opposite of that spectrum, and there's a looooooot of absolute spam and trash to weed through, along with hundreds of throwaways, every time there's a gamejam somewhere. That said, there IS a lot of demos, so if they happen to have something more mainline, or there's a promising game out there, you may be able to find more rough gems there. Otherwise, I don't really recommend itch, unless you're looking for games that have absolutely no other avenues.
Posted May 28, 2021
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kohlrak: WOuldn't that actually confirm the theory?
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Canuck_Cat: In 2019, there were 172 GOG employees (p.20). In 2020, there were 214 GOG employees (p.21). So yes, now it's verified with how they hired 42 more people (+24%).
Once again, that changes nothing. The pandemic, for the most part, is over, so...
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionWho Is In Charge Of Game Vetting Here? (88 posts)(88 posts)
(88 posts)