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drxenija: That is a long list. So I'm not experienced about this but what is QLC versus PCIE? Often when I buy NVME (fastest type of drive currently), it only has PCIE in front of the title
They're referring to the type of flash inside it. It's all stored in binary, however one trick they used to bring the price of SSD's down is to use multiple voltage states per cell (to keep things simple, imagine 100% = data is written at 5v, 50% = 2.5v, 0% = 0v, etc):-

SLC (1 bit per cell) = 100% vs 0

MLC (2 bit per cell) = 100% vs 66% vs 33% vs 0

TLC (3 bit per cell) = 100% vs 86% vs 71% vs 57% vs 43% vs 28% vs 14% vs 0

QLC (4 bit per cell) = 100% vs 93% vs 87% vs 80% vs 73% vs 67% vs 60% vs 53% vs 47% vs 40% vs 33% vs 27% vs 20% vs 13% vs 7% vs 0%

The more they squeeze in, the fewer flash chips are needed to store the same amount of data. However, as you can see, the more they squeeze in, the lower the "headroom" between voltage states, the lower the endurance of the drives and the less time they can spend unplugged & unpowered before they start to lose their data. Older SLC flash used to be able to write 100,000 P/E cycles (times each cell of flash can be written to and erased before it wears out). MLC flash is still fairly decent at 10,000 P/E (more than enough for most people), TLC is down to 3,000 or so, still enough for most consumers. However QLC completely falls through the floor into barely just a few hundred P/E cycles, and often isn't that much cheaper in practise than TLC. They developed strong ECC (error correction) to help mitigate this with TLC but that was a one-time boost and there is no "magic beans" solution that will allow them to keep on squeezing in more and more voltage states without compromise.

As for the interfaces:-

SATA - Serial ATA. Uses the same interface as HDD's and ODD's and plugs into the motherboard via a cable. Slow (typical max 500MB/s) but you can used 4-6x of them per motherboard.

M.2 - The name of the physical socket for the new "slot-in" SSD's. It can "talk" in 3x interfaces (SATA, NVMe and USB). People mix up NVMe and M.2 all the time, but you can get SATA versions of M.2 drives as well as M.2 devices that aren't SSD's (eg, WI-Fi / 5G cellular "modem" cards in laptops). The number after an M.2 refers to the physical size. The "standard" size is 2280 = 22mm width x 80mm length. There are shorter ones, eg, 2230 / 2242 = 22mm width x 30/42mm length often used in some tablets, Steam Deck, etc.

NVMe / PCIe SSD - Essentially the same thing - the "faster" interface used on new drives. NVMe SSD means it will plug into the M.2 slots whilst PCIe SSD usually means the are a PCIe slot-in card (like a GPU). They both use PCIe speeds though.

tl:dr - If you're in any doubt, buy an NVMe TLC drive. If you find a TLC and QLC at nearly the same price, always go for the TLC one. And if you plan on using an SSD externally, be sure to plug it in at least every few weeks. It used to be the case they were rated for "52 weeks unpowered data integrity" but that was measured on MLC in a now 10 year old study. Some cheap QLC drives can only last as little as 2-6 months constantly unplugged before the data starts to "fade" and strong error correction is needed to "guestimate" back the data you wrote often resulting in speeds plummeting down to 10MB/s. For external data storage (not system drives), if you have any irreplaceable data (wedding photos, etc) very definitely don't assume (as some have) that 1x $300 SSD is more reliable than 2-3x $100 HDD's just because it's "solid state".

Edit: Another thing to be aware of is "DRAMless" drives. Most SSD's have a DRAM cache to store the Flash Translation Layer / partition table, but to save money there's some that don't. There's a feature called "Host Memory Buffer" that can use a small chunk of main memory (usually 60-100MB) in place of that, that works well but it can only be used on internal drives, ie, a DRAMless SSD in an external USB caddy will have no functional memory cache at all and performance and endurance will be a lot lower. So if you're planning on using SSD's as external backup drives, buy those with built-in DRAM to be on the safe side.
Post edited September 06, 2024 by AB2012
Okay, i am actually surprised they use this junk SSDs on so many PCIE drives, because it is a mess and a major headache to almost any PC builder. To me, i never had any of those QLC ever inside my PCs because i use "high performance" SSDs and long time ago... even SATA SSDs was using MLC technology... for example OCZ Vertex 3 (one of the first SSDs i was using in a PC). At some point the industry almost entirely was moving toward TLC and QLC NAND in order to bring down the cost. Reliability decreased a lot and the speed too... However, using a good controller on a TLC NAND, those SSDs can still achieve very fast speed. Some SSDs even can be run in a "fake SLC" mode for even more performance and lesser wear. However... on QLC NAND, i know no single drive with a capable controller.... so the combination of bad controller and bad NAND, not even DRAM cache in many cases, is breaking any bones... or chips... on those drives.

As i said, its OKAY for external USB drives but absolutely a mess as a PCIE internal drive. NEVER use it as a OS drive.... the wear is simply to crazy, apart from weak performance.

I do not think it, even from the price perspective, it makes any sense anymore using QLC. Because there are already many capable 2 TB TLC SSDs with a pretty good price (100 coins or so). The QLC SSDs are simply to expensive for "what you get for"... it is just not worth it. For example "Kingstone KC 3000 2 TB" currently around 125 coins on my country... very good performance, TLC... and absolutely affordable i say.

Besides, those Samsung T5 or whatelse external drives: Totally overpriced for what you get for, lets be honest. I think "San Disk Extreme Portable" is one of the best "bang for bucks" at the current time. HOWEVER, i heard those San Disk Extreme Portable may become to hot or even suffer reliability, which is a big no go. Personally. i use both T5 and a San Disk Portable, both was working fine for me... for a long time already. The T5 is way slower... but both was working fine so far. The wear level is still 99% even on the T5 (2TB) but maybe 80% left on the San Disk (1 TB). So, wear level is not a issue at all... at 1 TB and above. It can only become a serious issue at any drive below 1 TB. I think my Surface 7 Pro Notebook is soon down to 60% wear or so.... but it only had a 250 GB drive and it is over 4 year of age... it may still last way above 5 years, but yeah.

However... the Samsung 990 Pro prices was going down like mad the past year and months... and nowadays it got a pretty competitive price as well. I still do NOT recommend them because to problematic with the firmware. They had a lot of firmware issues in the past and i DUNNO if it is 100% fixed now....
I am absolutely neutral, i use one of those drives as well on my PC but NOT as a OS drives, just game drive. It was the only SSD i had to update the firmware already, because there was a major failure that could cause premature wear. I was not affected but i was instantly updating it, just to be safe.

I use a Kingstone Fury Renegade on my OS (and one of my game drives) which is basically "the bigger brother" of the KC 3000, a bit more pricey, but both drives perform great.... difference may not be noticeable at all.

Besides: Do not use below 2 TB SSDs! .... i recommend to everyone... because you will run out of space... the data size is constantly increasing. Below 2 TB is useless nowadays... and not even with a good value anymore, 2 TB got best value!

My recommendation for a PS5, if someone want to upgrade (but they are nice for PCs as well) is a Seagate Firecuda 530... very reliable SSDs and outstanding for OS too, the combination of reliability and sufficient performance making it a great "allround drive for any use". It is not as fast as a 990 pro (with 2 GB DRAM cache, for 2 TB version) nor with the affordability of a KC 3000 (with 2 GB DRAM cache, for 2 TB version), but it is simply the most solid package if reliability is critical. Personally, for OS... i would go either Kingstone Fury Renegade (with 2 GB DRAM cache) or Firecuda 530 (as well with 2 GB DRAM cache)... all the other drives can be used "freely".

To be honest, in my country... it is almost impossible to get one of those QLC PCIE SSD because almost no one is buying those junk... just not worth it... if you can get a TLC for around 100 and even 2 TB. This is the price of ONE EXPENSIVE GAME. If people can not afford it... then stop playing games, sorry! Yes it is true those QLC PCIE SSDs does exist but i dunno how to get it... seriously... because no one wants it... in my country at least. Maybe in Brazil or US... i totally dunno!

The fastest drive i currently use is a Crucial T700 (with a record breaking 8 GB DRAM cache, for 4 TB version) over PCIE 5.0. It is surely overkill, no gamer needs this but i just had a "free PCIE 5.0 slot" and somehow it was sad i was not using it for over a year already.... so, as soon as the price was below 500 coins for a 4 TB... i simply was upgrading my PC with. I was in need of the space of course.... but not "this speed"... this is just a insane luxury with almost no benefit, except "bragging rights". However... i always say "why not"... my life is short, my coins are not the things i hug a lot... it is LOVE for the good stuff and hearty people i am gonna hug... not sheer coins.

Indeed, if i love coins a lot... i may have a lake of coins already, and a junk PC... NO car... hey people a car is EXPENSIVE do never get this if you love coins! And a good PC is expensive TOO NOWADAYS... the age of good and cheap PCs is OVER... yes it is OVER. Because, board prices was going up a lot and GPU too.... along with many other prices and the high need of a lot of space, which can become pricey (2 TB no issue... 12 TB... the moneybag will moan). And a 20+ TB HDD.... several of them... bye bye money... the age of cheap data storage is gone, over... and cheap GPUs, simply the hard truth. It is either... good PC and a car with no money left... or a trash PC and no car.... but a lot of money instead. Yeah, about 1% of the people may have EVERYTHING, but those are the 1%... most likely not me nor you!

How much was the total price of my good PC? I stopped counting it but it is way above 5000... coins, no joke. However, i enjoy it a lot... it is a insane thing gaming on it with hundreds of DRM free games of any class.

To put it short:

Best price/performance: Kingstone KC 3000 2TB°° (could be 100+ coins, leaving any QLC in the dark, makes no sense)
Best reliability: Kingstone Fury Renegade or Firecuda 530 (both use in general the most sturdy NAND/PCB design)
Best absolute performance PCIE 4.0: Samsung 990 Pro (most likely, but many competitors are almost same speed)
Best absolute performance PCIE 5.0: Crucial T700 + Crucial T705 (NAND is cutting edge but controller need strong cooling)

°°Some versions use Kioxia and some use Micron NAND. Micron is more sturdy while Kioxia is simply cheaper. In general, cheaper (than this) SSDs do not use Micron at all, because it would be to expensive. Not even the WD SN850X is using Micron, it is Kioxia everywhere. So, there are some drawbacks going cheaper, yet in general Kioxia is sufficiently reliable (not as reliable as Micron) and those SSDs are fast.

On Samsung, NAND is great but i worry firmware issues and the pretty hot running controller... and in many cases, the controller can die faster than the NAND... killing all data too (no matter the quality of the NAND... they need a controller).

In general, i think the 2 drives i consider most reliable, as long as turned on (not turning it off for more than 6 months) it may last a very long time and in general the most reliable SSDs possible, with the exception of industrial grade stuff almost no one can afford (and with way to few space... at a price a usual human is able to pay).

However, it could vary on "other markets", always watch out for "good special offers".
Post edited September 06, 2024 by Xeshra
Just butting in to frown at this bit:
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Xeshra: If people can not afford it... then stop playing games, sorry!
What the hell? And how nice for you that you can afford a 5000+ CHF computer. The tremendous majority of people in the world can't. Most also can't afford "ONE EXPENSIVE GAME" at full price either. And that does NOT mean they should give up on games!

On the other hand
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AB2012:
Great explanation!
Post edited September 06, 2024 by Cavalary
Pretty philosophical questions here: The points i was bringing up and making you upset was those 2:

1. Most people can not even afford one expensive game...
2. Most people should not stop playing [PC games] no matter if they can afford it or not

Point 1:
Well, what are actually basic human rights? Being able to afford and play a game, being able to receive love for what we are and not the stuff attached to us by society, being able to make our own decisions related to our body... which means no one should be able to exploit our physical integrity, or maybe even able to freely express ourselves... some mental freedom without fearing repressions and punishment? Being able to freely develop our mind without becoming shunned for having the wrong opinion? Perhaps even the right to freely "travel the world" using public transport to a certain extend without the need to "amass" huge amount of coins?

Well, every single "possible right" has not been granted to me except the right for playing and able to afford a game... [and the required hardware] At least i could say, the "right issue" you was bringing up could be granted most likely with this one, this is indeed true.... and yet,... it is still difficult to attain for many of us.

However... there are many other "rights matters" i may value even more than this, yet not realistic to ever achieve. So, in general, we are not very "friendly" as a society if it comes to each others rights, as we do not enjoy granting it to each others, just to be realistic.

Point 2:
This is actually the right that is most realistic from any rights i was bringing up, as an example. As a humanitarian human i would enjoy to grant everyone this right, along with a unconditional basic income. However, no... it does not exist "this right", it would need to become set up. Most likely the society as a whole may not be willing to grant this right, no matter the price of the required hardware or games... it is simply not considered "essential"... hell... they may not even consider way more basic things "essential". In fact, even the need for water is not a basic rights, so... actually someone could be very thirsty and no need to bring them a glass of water because no basic right. Sure i can sell them a bottle of water for lets say 5 huge coins and if they lack the cash... ok... its their issue as they lack the right getting it.

So, the thing i want to say is simply: Rights are almost always granted by individuals and the people who decided to show you their love and interest.... those may be able to grant you the rights you may be looking for. As a whole... however... i think society kinda is lost. Things may change but those changes happens very slowly, so no reason to expect quick changes any time soon.

If i want you to be able to play PC games? Well sure... but without very close connection i may not help you out to be blunt, because i am not a billionaire, but i enjoy if people can smile and being able to play games, indeed... even though, not considered a very basic right.

Ah nope, i was not offended one little bit and i even knew in advance what may happen with my words, i am glad i got it... which is not even my personal opinion, instead the one the society in general is accepting, as a sheer reality.
Post edited September 06, 2024 by Xeshra
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drxenija: https://phanteks.com/product/xt-pro-black/

Thoughts? Versus 4000D
Aesthetically I like the Phanteks, but I think Corsair is the better case. The fact that the 4000D has an easy to remove frontal dust filter is a huge plus for me. The XT Pro seems to have only that front panel mesh, which I don't think is that easy to remove. But overall, they seem pretty similar. Watch a few videos and see which one you like best, I guess.

Bellow are some reviews for the Corsair case from sources I trust. For Phanteks I didn't find anything on the channels I know, but are plenty reviews for it on youtube.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/corsair-4000d-airflow/
Gamers Nexus
Leo from KitGuru
The GPU reliability surely is not good in general, and here is one of many reasons why. The PCB design of this one is simply crap... even on a 4090! You pay so much for this bloody GPU and they still fail to make a solid PCB design for whatever reason.

Yes there are some sturdy designs around but gamers will have to watch it, they will not be granted automatically, not even at a high price.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdymB1vLdF8

Besides, many people may say "there was no need to do so much work, removing everything and building up the whole board again from the very ground"... well i would disagree: This is exactly the difference between a "cheap purely symptomatic repair" that will last a rather short time because there are so many other faulty spots that are almost failing and unable to provide a "stable base" for the parts already repaired, and a quality repair that is made while its entirety of issues is being taken into account. So in order to provide the required "stable base" EVERY weak spot, every part, will have to be considered an be taken into account. This is the only way it will produce a long lasting quality repair... it does not matter if it is a card or maybe even a car.... or a human body... same counts for everything that needs repair... or healing. Always look at the "whole picture" for a long lasting and good result.
Post edited September 08, 2024 by Xeshra
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AB2012: M.2 - The name of the physical socket for the new "slot-in" SSD's. It can "talk" in 3x interfaces (SATA, NVMe and USB). People mix up NVMe and M.2 all the time
In other words, M.2 is the form factor (or platform as some call it) and SATA/PCIe is the physical interface, which leads to products like SATA M.2 SSDs, and NVMe/PCIe M.2 SSDs (where NVMe is the fastest together with the PCIe interface). USB is a separate transfer protocol and interfaces, and not directly on an M.2 without a converter.

SATA is the old interface and PCIe is new one for M.2.

For those not in IT it gets even more confusing because NVMe (Non-Volatile Memory Express) is only a faster transfer protocol with focus on I/O latency and parallelism, among other, made to work especially with both the fast flash memory and with the physical PCIe interface.

Apropos mixing; I made that mistake once of buying an NVMe for an old Asus eee laptop that only accepted M.2 SATA without double-checking the small print. Luckily I saved it for a future laptop with M.2 NVMe/PCIe.
Post edited September 08, 2024 by sanscript
For a gaming rig stay away from pci-e 5.0 !!!
5.0 mobo cost more, 5.0 SSD cost more, there is no benefit to game load times.
4.0 loads games as fast as 5.0.
No GPUs use 5.0, all current gen cards use 4.0.
We do not know if next gen cards will use 5.0.
Someone working with huge files daily, like a video editor at LTT might benefit, the avg person does not.
I have a few suggestions. For starters, do this on pcpartpicker.com, to make sure all the parts you get will be compatible. Six years ago, I built my current computer with atx case, so I would be able to upgrade later. It is still going strong with no upgrades needed yet.

Specs: Intel Core i7-7800X 3.5GHz 6-Core Processor, MSI X299 GAMING PRO CARBON ATX LGA2066 Motherboard, Corsair Vengeance LED 32GB (4 x 8GB) DDR4-3000, Samsung 960 PRO 512GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive, EVGA GeForce GTX 1080 8GB FTW Gaming ACX 3.0 Video Card, Phanteks Enthoo Pro M Tempered Glass (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case, EVGA 850W 80+ Gold Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply, MS Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit

Whatever you go with, consider the total amount of power required, then go with 1.5x that amount for the power supply. The reason for that is for possible future upgrades, but also, if the computer overheats, those fans kicking on can cause the cpu to compete for power output and slow down the computer. So, summer temps, where you live and the average daily temperature where you live may be factors you want to consider the power requirements.

Lastly, multiple m.2 slots on the motherboard (one just for the operating system and virtual memory) and another for all the other software, like games, utilities, streaming, etc installed, to not interfere with each drive. I say m.2 because at the time, that was new when I was building my computer; basically, flash drive used as 'hard drive' replacement. They are super fast, low-heat, and super quiet. Liquid CPU Cooler (I used Fractal Design) can also help with cooling.

My initial plan was to spend around 1800 on the whole thing, but after considerations and I wanted the computer to last a long time before I had to replace it, I went with some parts that were more expensive. I am glad I did.
OP, list your budget and what you plan to do with it like what games you plan to play and at what resolution and settings and I or someone here can draw up a list for you. Then you can ask why people chose the parts or what makes it different from others. That'll be faster than having multiple people try to explain different technologies and nuances for what not even be relevant.
Post edited September 08, 2024 by UnashamedWeeb
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renegade042: For a gaming rig stay away from pci-e 5.0 !!!
5.0 mobo cost more, 5.0 SSD cost more, there is no benefit to game load times.
4.0 loads games as fast as 5.0.
No GPUs use 5.0, all current gen cards use 4.0.
We do not know if next gen cards will use 5.0.
Someone working with huge files daily, like a video editor at LTT might benefit, the avg person does not.
I would not agree. PCIE 5.0 is not worse than PCIE 4.0 as a game drive, however... it simply may not be better as well, so it is a high price for "no real benefit", this is the issue here. Still, the performance, in real-life benchmarks, is a bit better... although with a margin that is in most cases not able to become noticed.

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/crucial-t700-pro-4-tb/18.html

Reason is simply, there is no game being optimized for it and on PC there is not even nearly the same optimization in SSD use a PS5 is able to provide. The developers (nor MS... direct storage is still crap i guess) simply are not focusing on it because almost no demand... almost everyone is still using 4.0.

However, anyone using a board that is supporting DDR5 on AMD will automatically get PCIE 5.0 as well, as this is simply a feature those boards are providing. 5.0 is backward compatible, this is true, so... there is no need to use a PCIE 5.0 on a 5.0 slot, but to me... using a PCIE 5.0 drive with its high quality parts (they have to... else this drive will not pass the warranty period at such speeds), is simply a matter of reliability and prestige... on top of that, most boards only got a single 5.0 slot. so, it will stay a pretty "exclusive thing".

Needless to say... in most cases the people may not even feel a real benefit by using a 990 Pro instead of a KC 3000, yet they still do buy a 990 Pro because they BELIEVE in real benefits by spending some more coins. Fact is... in most cases they may not feel any real-world-benefit and it would probably be better just to get a even better GPU because a better GPU will in almost any case provide a real benefit for any gamers... because it is still a highly limiting hardware piece... for a eternity already.

If people only want a higher RELIABILITY, this is totally understandable... i enjoy reliability even more than raw peformance. It is always a big mess if a drive is going boom... almost no one will smile if it happens. In this case... however... a Firecuda 530/Kingstone Fury Renegade or a .... shunned PCIE 5.0 drive, might be more reliable than... for example a 990 Pro.

Nope, i would say no one is able to notice a difference in loading time between KC 3000 and 990 Pro, but that does not stop gamers on buying 990 Pro like "never seen before"... for a difference of maybe 3% faster loading time... and in most games this is not even a second and most of us will not notice it.

Price? Well, they was going down on PCIE 5.0 a lot already, i guess 2 TB can be gotten for maybe 250-300 coins, and a 990 Pro is still around 160-180 coins... a KC 3000 110-130 coins.... but no matter what you use, they all may perform almost the same inside games. The only difference is the reliability... as the more expensive drives generally use higher quality NAND.

Of course, compared to KC 3000... there ARE slower drives but i will not even bring them up because NOT WORTH IT... they do not have any good price/performance ratio, KC 3000, to me, is simply the winner.
Post edited September 08, 2024 by Xeshra
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Xeshra: However, anyone using a board that is supporting DDR5 on AMD will automatically get PCIE 5.0 as well, as this is simply a feature those boards are providing.
Hardly. Just filtered motherboards on a store from here by AM5 and DDR5 and got 73 supporting PCI-E 4.0 and 27 PCI-E 5.0.
Let me check the situation because the issue is "i am simply going to high". I use a X670E chipset, the support there is native... the board vendors can not really delete this feature on a native chipset, no matter how cheap they want to go.

However.. there are some more AMD AM5 (yes, because AM4 does not support DDR5) chipsets: X670 and B650E both got native PCIE 5.0 (NVME) support as well. Difficult for board vendors to remove it... although in theory possible (it means they use the wrong chipset in this case... they should use a worse one).

https://www.amd.com/de/products/processors/chipsets/am5.html

The only AM5 chipset without native PCIE 5.0 support, as far as i can tell, is the B650. And those "business boards°°" which are no gamer boards (needless to bring them up). It does not mean the B650 can not, in theory, make it available but the board vendor surely will have to enable it. Maybe, if they deactivate it, they can go cheaper, but those are the cheapest boards on the entire AM5-line, i do not really recommend because not really "fit" to be a gamer board. Cheap components which might die because of heat... hard to recommend for gamers. As an office-PC with a weak GPU or no GPU at all... it is perfectly fine of course.

°°A620/A620A are the only ones regular customer can actually buy because the others are OEM only (system builder exclusive). While this one is a office-board... but in theory can be misused as a gamer board if we want to be funny and cheap. We can "only" go as low as B650 if we still want "real gamer hardware".

Please remember: It is not wise at all buying a board for maybe less than 200 coins if you need a GPU for over 500 coins... a board is a critical piece of any PC and its quality does matter.

Going to check the cheapest board with PCIE 5.0 NVME and the cheapest AM5 board (at all)... in order to compare the gain or loss in relation to its price and if i would consider it "worth it".
Post edited September 09, 2024 by Xeshra
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Xeshra: However, anyone using a board that is supporting DDR5 on AMD will automatically get PCIE 5.0 as well, as this is simply a feature those boards are providing.
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Cavalary: Hardly. Just filtered motherboards on a store from here by AM5 and DDR5 and got 73 supporting PCI-E 4.0 and 27 PCI-E 5.0.
"From here"... Romania? Okay... i guess they have a certain customer base which is in need of very low prices so there are almost no "pricey boards", just a wild guess now. I am gonna check how it looks in my countrys "biggest online shop".

On my shop. the biggest shop in my country... there are 145 different AM5 boards:

21: A620........ This is a "office" or "super small gamer = mini ITX, mATX or alike" . Cheapest mATX AVAILABLE (no use if i can not GET this board any time soon) is 118 CHF, cheapest mini ITX (is not cheaper, as this is considered a bonus feature going so small) will cost 159 CHF. Yes those got no PCIE 5.0, as simply not provided. Demand from gamers is very low because most gamers do not want to get a board smaller than their GPU and with rather weak endurance... a bit tricky.

72: B650: This is basically a highly sought after "budget gamer chipset" it is okay for gaming but surely with reduced features and perhaps there is some serious cut in cooling performance and even... to some extend... quality and overall stability. There are surely some nice board around but it could become tricky. Checking out cheapest board at all... and cheapest one with PCIE 5.0 option (tricky because no filter). Cheapest board, at all, AVAILABLE... is a mATX for 127 CHF which is pretty much in line with the cheapest A620 board, so probably not much use going "lower" here... because B650 is simply "better value".

Cheapest B650 WITH PCIE 5.0... good question, need filter now. As far as i can tell it is usually not "used" by the vendors, though, according to AMD they could enable PCIE 5.0 optionally.

I think, they generally do not make use of it on a B650 because there is a B650E with native support for it and gamers, a huge majority, is simply not asking for this feature. Low customer demand = not worth it enabling it on a "usual" B650... it totally makes sense.

However, yes there is a "usual" B650 which got PCIE 5.0 on the list of AVAILABLE B650, this is a ATX at a price of 165 CHF... i think cheapest B650 AVAILABLE with a PCIE 5.0 NVME slot. So the price basically will go up around 40 CHF for a board that is a now capable of PCIE 5.0 (NVME), not really huge at all and this board got a improved overall quality. Worth it? Yes... 100%, the value is good. https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/B650-AORUS-ELITE-AX-V2#kf

To me, it totally beats "those other boards" without PCIE 5.0 for a rather minor price upgrade... unless people can not live without going "smaller"... which comes at a sacrifice. To me, the "best value" would probably be this one... as i said, unless ATX is simply to big, but the value will decrease on those other boards.

11: B650E Not a popular board at all. Perhaps because rather new and it simply is not required in order to attract customers... as there are actually CHEAP B650 boards which already got PCIE 5.0 or all the features they may get with this one. Cheapest is 203 CHF but apart from better cooling, some better quality, there is no technical benefit.

9: X670: Not very popular, as... i guess, customers looking out for a X-board want to go "all out" and are using X670E instead. Cheapest is 203 CHF, actually not more pricey than a B650E, making the B650E pretty much "obsolete": Guess, another reason why gamers are barely trying to bother with.

20: X670E: Popular for those "looking to get everything", simply enthusiast grade. Cheapest is 229 CHF, which is actually a pretty affordable price for a board of this quality because it got improved sink attached, overall simply better quality which i consider "a good value". https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/X670E-GAMING-PLUS-WIFI

So the price range between the absolutely cheapest AM5 board possible vs. the cheapest X670E possible is 118 vs. 229, or in other words a price difference of around 110 coins, which is about a performant 2 TB drive (KC 3000 for example). Worth it to "dump it down" that much? In my mind... not really worth it... unless someone will have to save up every single little penny... however... in this case even a capable GPU or whatelse is simply "out of reach"...

As far as i can say... it is not expensive getting a PCIE 5.0 and AM5 board anymore, the price cut for not getting PCIE 5.0 is actually 40-110 coins, dependable on quality and features.

In my mind, if i really had to save up every little bit of my money.... i would probably get this one:

AM5:

GPU: Intel Arc A750 LE .........................270 CHF (a bit above PS5... or equal... performance, good for 1080P)
MB: B650 Aorus Elite AX V2................. 165 CHF (going lower is just not worth it, to much quality or feature-loss)
CPU: Ryzen 7 7700X............................. 253 CHF

Total: 688 CHF

Note: In general, AM5 is wrong... because AM4 is still the budget board with lowest MB prices! However... nowadays even AM5 can become somewhat affordable now.

AM4:

GPU: Intel Arc A750 LE......................... 270 CHF (a bit above PS5... or equal... performance, good for 1080P)
MB: MSI MPG B550 GAMING PLUS.... 105 CHF (there are cheaper ones but those are really crap, this one is best value i say)
CPU: Ryzen 7 5700 X3D....................... 180.10 CHF (a bit slower vs. 7700X but not by much)

Total: 555.10 CHF

SSD; KC 3000 2 TB for all systems, no need to ask... other stuff simply need to be sufficient. Missing: RAM, PSU, Case, GPU cooler... (without keyboard/mouse/OS or monitor... of course)

Sure, around 1000 is almost the magical "can barely go below"; as long as a gamer PC is not totally... finest... crap. It will surely cost a fair bit more than a PS5.

My personal psychological lowest limit is if a PC is below PS5 peformance... i would just pass and get a PS5 instead. If i can not even afford a PS5 with 1-3 games... okay... really bad luck in financial terms and perhaps no good friend or parents around.

I mean, my very first PC, at the age of around 10... was actually a old PC from a friend... because the friend was upgrading his PC so i was able to get his old PC. Not a good PC anymore but i was still able to enjoy a good bunch of games.
Post edited September 09, 2024 by Xeshra
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Xeshra:
In other words, even over there the majority of AM5 boards available do not support PCI-E 5.0. The rest of what you wrote is about specific use cases and people who can afford to go high.
I couldn't see myself going above a B650, period.
But, anyway, when you make generic statements, base them on generic data, not on your price / wealth level, which is obviously in the top few percent (so as not to use the "classic" saying).