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synfresh: My response to things like this is always the same. Say it's a smokescreen/excuse/whatever. I can tell you what DRM is not to most developers or publishers and that is a deterrent.
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shmerl: It is a deterrent if they care about more sales - DRM reduces them. But as was said multiple times, they don't use DRM to increase sales, they use it for covering incompetence and other sinister reasons.
How does it reduce them? Do you have actual analytics that show this? Rocket League sold a million copies, that's an indie game that's exclusively on a DRM platform. Think they are hurting for sales?

https://www.vg247.com/2015/08/28/rocket-league-tops-1m-steam-sales-goes-on-sale/

Diablo 3, a game that is fully embedded in the battle.net platform needs to be online to be played ,even single player, has sold 30 million units. Think Blizzard regrets the whole DRM thing?

http://www.polygon.com/2015/8/4/9097497/diablo-3-sales-30-million-units
Post edited October 15, 2015 by synfresh
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synfresh: Rocket League and Diablo 3
Well, I wonder about console sales for titles that are alleged to be DRM'd in some way or another versus those which weren't.
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synfresh: How does it reduce them? Do you have actual analytics that show this?
There were already several research papers which analyzed that. And they showed that DRM is reducing sales. It's quite easy to expect too - people who avoid DRM crippled products (for different reasons) simply won't buy any of that. Point is, nothing of that matters if those who use DRM do it for reasons unrelated to affecting sales potential.

* https://www.law.northwestern.edu/research-faculty/searlecenter/events/roundtable/documents/Zhang_Intellectual_Property_Strategy.pdf
* http://www.afterdawn.com/news/article.cfm/2011/10/10/researchers_say_drm_drives_away_legitimate_customers
Post edited October 16, 2015 by shmerl
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shmerl: It is a deterrent if they care about more sales - DRM reduces them. But as was said multiple times, they don't use DRM to increase sales, they use it for covering incompetence and other sinister reasons.
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synfresh: How does it reduce them? Do you have actual analytics that show this? Rocket League sold a million copies, that's an indie game that's exclusively on a DRM platform. Think they are hurting for sales?

https://www.vg247.com/2015/08/28/rocket-league-tops-1m-steam-sales-goes-on-sale/

Diablo 3, a game that is fully embedded in the battle.net platform needs to be online to be played ,even single player, has sold 30 million units. Think Blizzard regrets the whole DRM thing?

http://www.polygon.com/2015/8/4/9097497/diablo-3-sales-30-million-units
A game being successful has nothing to do with how well it could have done if different choices were made.

Just because lots of people bought Rocket League doesn't mean there aren't people that didn't buy it that would have if they had been given other options/choices. It just means somebody made a game lots of people liked and it sold better than a lot of other games.
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synfresh: How does it reduce them? Do you have actual analytics that show this? Rocket League sold a million copies, that's an indie game that's exclusively on a DRM platform. Think they are hurting for sales?

https://www.vg247.com/2015/08/28/rocket-league-tops-1m-steam-sales-goes-on-sale/

Diablo 3, a game that is fully embedded in the battle.net platform needs to be online to be played ,even single player, has sold 30 million units. Think Blizzard regrets the whole DRM thing?

http://www.polygon.com/2015/8/4/9097497/diablo-3-sales-30-million-units
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gooberking: A game being successful has nothing to do with how well it could have done if different choices were made.

Just because lots of people bought Rocket League doesn't mean there aren't people that didn't buy it that would have if they had been given other options/choices. It just means somebody made a game lots of people liked and it sold better than a lot of other games.
But everything else is just assumption otherwise. Let's deal with facts and the facts state that in the two examples I provided, DRM wasn't enough of a deterrent for those titles to be successful. The point being, if the game is good enough, most people will buy it regardless of DRM. Case in point, Origin titles. Only available digitally there but that didn't stop people from buying Dragon Age Inquisition. DRM is only a deterrent when developers can look at sales and say for certain that their title failed (in sales) because it was saddled with DRM (whether that's steam, origin, etc.). If a title isn't good, it's going to fail regardless if it has DRM or it's DRM-Free.
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achaye: It's patently ridiculous that large publishers still will not release new games on GOG, despite the success of The Witcher 3 here, among other larger-sized games. GOG has a fervent customer base, great customer support, and now even has an executable client for the lazy gamers who don't want to manually update their games - are large publishers still holding out due to lack of DRM? What would it take these publishers to convince their brain-dead investors that DRM doesn't hurt sales?

Even today, Kotaku just wrote about how Steam's customer service still essentially sucks major donkey balls (can't post links for some reason).

Ever since GOG released, I vowed I'd never buy any game with DRM, no matter how much I wanted to play it (Tomb Raider 2013, Rayman Legends, Dragon Age Inquisition, etc), and I'm guessing I can't be the only one.

When will big publishers start putting new releases here?
There are a quite a few games out there which I find interesting but have not bought because of DRM. So speaking for this one customer: You (DRM requiring companies) are loosing $$$ due to your DRM stance. I have approximately 200 games on GOG. I do not have any games on Steam or Origin or other DRMed system - not even an account.
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achaye: It's patently ridiculous that large publishers still will not release new games on GOG, despite the success of The Witcher 3 here, among other larger-sized games. GOG has a fervent customer base, great customer support, and now even has an executable client for the lazy gamers who don't want to manually update their games - are large publishers still holding out due to lack of DRM? What would it take these publishers to convince their brain-dead investors that DRM doesn't hurt sales?

Even today, Kotaku just wrote about how Steam's customer service still essentially sucks major donkey balls (can't post links for some reason).

Ever since GOG released, I vowed I'd never buy any game with DRM, no matter how much I wanted to play it (Tomb Raider 2013, Rayman Legends, Dragon Age Inquisition, etc), and I'm guessing I can't be the only one.

When will big publishers start putting new releases here?
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Zrevnur: There are a quite a few games out there which I find interesting but have not bought because of DRM. So speaking for this one customer: You (DRM requiring companies) are loosing $$$ due to your DRM stance. I have approximately 200 games on GOG. I do not have any games on Steam or Origin or other DRMed system - not even an account.
Just remember that for every buyer such as yourself, there are millions of Steam users that will willingly buy their product. That's all publishers are looking at, what's the bottom line.
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Zrevnur: There are a quite a few games out there which I find interesting but have not bought because of DRM. So speaking for this one customer: You (DRM requiring companies) are loosing $$$ due to your DRM stance. I have approximately 200 games on GOG. I do not have any games on Steam or Origin or other DRMed system - not even an account.
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synfresh: Just remember that for every buyer such as yourself, there are millions of Steam users that will willingly buy their product. That's all publishers are looking at, what's the bottom line.
Where did you get this number ("millions") from? I would be quite interested in real numbers if anybody has them.

Edit: typo
Post edited October 20, 2015 by Zrevnur
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synfresh: Just remember that for every buyer such as yourself, there are millions of Steam users that will willingly buy their product. That's all publishers are looking at, what's the bottom line.
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Zrevnur: Where did you get this number ("millions") from? I would be quite interested in real numbers if anybody has them.

Edit: typo
Do you really believe that the world-largest platform for selling PC games online has just a couple of tens of thousand customers/users? Really? This is a level of naivete where i find saying "Google it" is actually being appropriate. With regard to real numbers, it is estimated that Steam had reached a number of 75mio customers/users by 2014. Don't know how much of them being active and unique customers/users, though (but even when pessimistically assuming only 10% are active and every Steam user has 5 accounts then this would still still be 1.5mio unique and active users). (Source: not my grandma)
Post edited October 20, 2015 by elgonzo
The answer to the OP's question is, unfortunately, when hell freezes over. Sorry if someone else already answered this (didn't read 3 pages of responses).

And, even more unfortunately, it's not because those AAA publishers are just soooo evil. No, the fault is gamer's themselves (ourselves) for buying AAA games with DRM on them. I can absolutely GUARANTEE YOU, if every gamer stopped buying games with DRM today, tomorrow would be a DRM free world.

But, again, that's as likely to happen as hell freezing over.
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Zrevnur: Where did you get this number ("millions") from? I would be quite interested in real numbers if anybody has them.

Edit: typo
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elgonzo: Do you really believe that the world-largest platform for selling PC games online has just a couple of tens of thousand customers/users? Really? This is a level of naivete where i find saying "Google it" is actually being appropriate. With regard to real numbers, it is estimated that Steam had reached a number of 75mio customers/users by 2014. Don't know how much of them being active and unique customers/users, though (but even when pessimistically assuming only 10% are active and every Steam user has 5 accounts then this would still still be 1.5mio unique and active users). (Source: not my grandma)
How about actually reading what you reply to? Instead of making wild assumptions about my beliefs and "naivete".
Or (in case you did read it but failed to comprehend it) learning some English grammar before making posts like this one.
Quoting the quote which I replied to (the "millions" are from that / refer to that): "Just remember that for every buyer such as yourself, there are millions of Steam users that will willingly buy their product."
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elgonzo: Do you really believe that the world-largest platform for selling PC games online has just a couple of tens of thousand customers/users? Really? This is a level of naivete where i find saying "Google it" is actually being appropriate. With regard to real numbers, it is estimated that Steam had reached a number of 75mio customers/users by 2014. Don't know how much of them being active and unique customers/users, though (but even when pessimistically assuming only 10% are active and every Steam user has 5 accounts then this would still still be 1.5mio unique and active users). (Source: not my grandma)
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Zrevnur: How about actually reading what you reply to? Instead of making wild assumptions about my beliefs and "naivete".
Or (in case you did read it but failed to comprehend it) learning some English grammar before making posts like this one.
Quoting the quote which I replied to (the "millions" are from that / refer to that): "Just remember that for every buyer such as yourself, there are millions of Steam users that will willingly buy their product."
Oh, that must be one of these so-called "internet arguments" i once heard about...
Post edited October 21, 2015 by elgonzo
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Zrevnur: How about actually reading what you reply to? Instead of making wild assumptions about my beliefs and "naivete".
Or (in case you did read it but failed to comprehend it) learning some English grammar before making posts like this one.
Quoting the quote which I replied to (the "millions" are from that / refer to that): "Just remember that for every buyer such as yourself, there are millions of Steam users that will willingly buy their product."
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elgonzo: Oh, that must be one of these so-called "internet arguments" i once heard about...
How about admitting your mistake (or admitting that you dont understand what I said)?
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Zrevnur: Where did you get this number ("millions") from? I would be quite interested in real numbers if anybody has them.

Edit: typo
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elgonzo: Do you really believe that the world-largest platform for selling PC games online has just a couple of tens of thousand customers/users? Really? This is a level of naivete where i find saying "Google it" is actually being appropriate. With regard to real numbers, it is estimated that Steam had reached a number of 75mio customers/users by 2014. Don't know how much of them being active and unique customers/users, though (but even when pessimistically assuming only 10% are active and every Steam user has 5 accounts then this would still still be 1.5mio unique and active users). (Source: not my grandma)
Steam has about 135 million active users, but since users are not the same as customers, that figure ends up being deceptive. Steam Spy helped set the record straight in terms of how large of a market Steam actually represents:
And here is the interesting thing — there is a market and audience for smaller games, otherwise Steam wouldn’t exist. Many people are trying many new games. They don’t spend hundreds of hours in one title, they’re, you know, your average gamers, you used to hear about a lot.

But there is a catch: There aren’t many of them.

Classic “core gamers” — the ones that play most major hits or jump from indie game to indie game — are relatively rare when compared to overall gaming audience.

In fact, 1% of Steam gamers own 33% of all copies of games on Steam. 20% of Steam gamers own 88% of games. That’s even more than Pareto principle suggests.

So, to be a member of the “1% group” of Steam gamers you have to own 107 games or more. That’s not much considering how Steam is selling games at discount prices and how easy it is to obtain games in bundles.

We’re talking about 1.3M PC gamers that could fall into definition of “core gamer that buys several games per year”. And that’s including discounted games as well.

Of course we could extend it to, I don’t know, “softcore gamers” — the 20% that own 88% games. To be included you’d have to own 4 (FOUR) games or more on Steam — not exactly a huge number, right?

Let me repeat it once more, because it’s really important.

Various studies suggest that there are 700–800 million of PC gamers. It’s probably true, but it doesn’t mean much for your game. Because if you’re developing a downloadable game for Steam you’re not even fighting for 135M of its active users, you’re fighting for the attention of 1.3 million gamers that are actually buying lots of games.

The 1% group.
Source: https://medium.com/steam-spy/your-target-audience-doesn-t-exist-999b78aa77ae#.xuhxuuuag

The funny thing is that the figures he provides are arguably still not representative of Steam's actual market, since the data he uses doesn't (and probably can't) account for how the games were acquired.

Alas, being the 'the world-largest platform for selling PC games online' isn't as impressive as it sounds, since the market as a whole is fairly niche.
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synfresh: Case in point, Origin titles. Only available digitally there but that didn't stop people from buying Dragon Age Inquisition.
Except for those who don't use Origin at all because it's DRMed. Lost sales for them. It's not a deterrent because they care not about sales, but about lock-in and control.
Post edited October 21, 2015 by shmerl