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StingingVelvet: I doubt any major service like Valve ever takes away peoples games, because it would tank their business.
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Dean478: But they do. Origin did it to me for a false infraction. It took legal intervention to rectify. So if they do it for breaking the code of conduct, why on Earth would they not do it when their business angle changes?

Look at what happened with Gamespy and Games for Windows Live. Entire catalogues were rendered useless or simply removed. I've got boxes of GFWL games that are now entirely useless and had to be purchased a second time on Steam at full cost. :/
Certain GFWL keys can be redeemed on Steam. (or at least they could last time I checked) Here is a list of games that might be redeemable.
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Dean478: Games for Windows Live. Entire catalogues were rendered useless or simply removed. I've got boxes of GFWL games that are now entirely useless and had to be purchased a second time on Steam at full cost. :/
Most GFWL games still work. You can even redeem new GFWL games. The only thing they closed was the store so you cannot buy DLC if it was digital only. Games like GTA IV can still be played online from the GFWL retail version.

Halo 2 has had its servers turned off, but should still run single player fine.

All you need to do is to install the latest GFWL client from their website, not from any of the games.
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Vendor-Lazarus: This is very interesting actually. Could even be helpful for converting a few more people maybe..

Do you happen to know any site that lists launchers/services/markets/stores/whathaveyou.. hmm. I still don't know what to call the likes of the Steam DRm, Epic, Origin, Uplay, etc..

Anyway, any site that lists occurrences where games and things have been taken away from people thanks to DRM?
Maybe even lists events wherein a person has lost programs in a currently active DRM-scheme?
Anything that used TAGES or SafeDisc no longer works. Several SecuROM games don't either. If you could find lists of games that have these, you'd be off to a great start.
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Vendor-Lazarus: Do you happen to know any site that lists launchers/services/markets/stores/whathaveyou.. hmm. I still don't know what to call the likes of the Steam DRm, Epic, Origin, Uplay, etc..

Anyway, any site that lists occurrences where games and things have been taken away from people thanks to DRM?
This list is highly incomplete, and excludes many older games that aren't on Steam but is probably the best there is for a general single page description:-
https://www.pcgamingwiki.com/wiki/The_Big_List_of_3rd_Party_DRM_on_Steam

There are also variations of different games. Eg, first CD-ROM releases of Age of Empires games had a CD-check but the later DVD-ROM "Collectors Edition" version of AoE 1-2 is actually DRM-Free. Then the more recent "upgraded" HD / Definitive versions of AoE 1-2 on Steam / Microsoft Store have added new DRM back in again (Steamworks check, CEG, Microsoft Store DRM and Arxan).

As for examples of things taken away, this includes everything from CD based disc checks that have been deprecated on W10 (so they no longer work unless you crack the check out of it with a "NoCD")...
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2015/08/17/windows-10-safedisc-securom-drm/

...it includes entire countries getting banned for political reasons:-
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/ea-bans-out-of-nowhere-an-entire-country-from-origin-without-offering-refunds-or-compensations/

... and it includes forced content removal, eg, GTA IV's soundtrack deletion (which wouldn't be possible with offline installers):-
https://gadgets.ndtv.com/games/news/gta-4-sound-track-expired-license-pc-xbox-360-ps3-1836240

There's many other examples of DRM either taking things away or at least resulting in a degraded experience:-

- Commercial software requiring "dongles" that stop working or become incompatible with newer PC's
- For movies / music, abandoned support for old protected .WMA's or .divx's renders them unplayable.
- Old abandoned file formats / encryption of early EBooks can't easily be converted to newer .epub or .mobi formats
- Early floppy disc copy protection that modifies the disc sector format that caused issues on later hardware
- Non Red-Book compliant Audio CD's (deliberate out of spec) that refused to play in many in-car / portable CD players
- Blu-Ray movies that won't work on older unsupported players with non-updated firmware, or where features in software players such as taking screenshots are disabled.
- 4K / UHD Blu-Ray restrictions are so harsh with standalone players needing to go online regularly to play physical discs that the entire format is virtually dead.
- Restrictions on Netflix resolutions if viewed on "unauthorized" devices, eg, limited to 480p/576p SD on older tablets that have 720p-1080p screens or limited to 720p if viewed in Firefox instead of Edge, etc, for completely artificial reasons.
- Analogue video DRM (eg, Macrovision) on VHS / DVD interfering with normal viewing when viewed through another device, eg, analogue wireless video senders, or a DVD player plugged into a VCR which in turn is plugged into a TV.
- DRM on printer ink cartridges where the printer can either be 1. Locked out from using non-genuine cartridges, 2. Refuses to print if you refill genuine cartridges, or 3. If you stop subscribing to some subscription services such as HP's "Instant Ink", it can even lock out genuine cartridges containing genuine ink.
Post edited March 14, 2020 by AB2012
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Vendor-Lazarus: Anyway, any site that lists occurrences where games and things have been taken away from people thanks to DRM?
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AB2012: There's many other examples of DRM either taking things away or at least resulting in a degraded experience:-
Thanks. That's what I get for making sweeping and broad requests. ,)
Nah, just kidding. The scope could indeed be increased, it was just so much wider than I expected!

Reading your post makes me think it could be included in the general "Planned Obsolescence" category of things.
Our games' DRM might not have a built in time-limit per say, but it is being made dependent on a certain structure that by nature is evolving. Leaving us to bite the dust.
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RoboPond: All you need to do is to install the latest GFWL client from their website, not from any of the games.
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RedFireGaming: Certain GFWL keys can be redeemed on Steam. (or at least they could last time I checked) Here is a list of games that might be redeemable.
Interesting. Thank you both!
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StingingVelvet: Preservation of old software is definitely my main concern. If publishers just removed DRM a year after the game came out then I would complain soooooo much less. That said, I doubt any major service like Valve ever takes away peoples games, because it would tank their business. At least not anytime in the near future. Maybe 20-30 years form now when there's radically different technology to worry about. […]
Cue anecdote >>

So, the latest blue-ray video player I purchased has no easy way to make it region-free. Every player I have ever bought has always had a trivial hack (usually entering the first six digits of π via the remote on a particular configuration page) but this new one has not numerals on the controller. So it is region-locked. And we own 700+ DVDs from three different regions (the USA, Europe and Australia) which means most of them do not play.
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scientiae: So, the latest blue-ray video player I purchased has no easy way to make it region-free. Every player I have ever bought has always had a trivial hack (usually entering the first six digits of π via the remote on a particular configuration page) but this new one has not numerals on the controller. So it is region-locked. And we own 700+ DVDs from three different regions (the USA, Europe and Australia) which means most of them do not play.
Didn't you have to pay customs often when ordering DVDs from the other continents?

Another reason why I never ordered DVDs from the US (sometimes the best versions of American movies): I like having subtitles (preferably English ones).

I don't collect DVDs anymore like I used to, but post-Brexit I'd probably think twice before ordering from the UK. (though last time I heard the future customs situation is still unclear)
Ok, enough of this derailing my own thread!
Post edited March 14, 2020 by teceem
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timppu: ...but DRM in online multiplayer games will keep the cheaters away because they'd lose their investment (the game) if they were banned from the game for cheating.
Simple solution: Let people host their own servers.

Yes this opens up a whole new can of worms, I've been there and have done that. I've been banned from servers (BF1942 and Quake 3) for playing too well and have been accused of cheating). And I've been on servers where the admin was clearly cheating (again BF1942 and CS) and nobody could do anything about it. But this levels out - shrug it off, find another server, or even host your own.
I don't play MP nowadays... but those were the days where it was actually fun. Eventually you'd find servers where people were reliable, real cheaters were kickbanned, good players and regulars got the benefit of doubt. Credit were credits is due - EA's official BF42 servers were really good regarding this.
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scientiae: So, the latest blue-ray video player I purchased has no easy way to make it region-free. Every player I have ever bought has always had a trivial hack (usually entering the first six digits of π via the remote on a particular configuration page) but this new one has not numerals on the controller. So it is region-locked. And we own 700+ DVDs from three different regions (the USA, Europe and Australia) which means most of them do not play.
In the US you've always had to buy special players for region-free ability, so that must have been a cool Aussie thing. I have a region-free Blu-ray player mainly just for Arrow Video releases, which are amazing.
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There is nothing wrong with DRM. People that try to list problems with DRM fail to notice that DRM-free has the same issues.

I had bought a ton of games on dotemu a long time ago. I probably had more games than anyone on there. All DRM-free games. Then one day they shut the site and service down. This led me to not having access to download any if my paid games anymore.

This leads to another issue that affects old DRM-free games that came on discs, as well as these DRM-free downloaded versions. Even if you already have the game DRM-free, you cannot access any of the new updates, add-ons, extras, or whatever it is the specific game has added or will add, unless you buy the game again DRM-free from somewhere that has it.

You can make the argument that I can play the game DRM-free still, and sure, I could, but if I want any updates, new content, or the ability to run it on Windows 10, I need to buy it again. Yet if I bought it on Steam on day one, I would have had to only buy it once, instead of having to buy it multiple times DRM-free.

I get that fanboys will fanboy, and that forum like this are one big echo chamber, but the fact is that DRM and DRM-free both have issues with their history and neither one is better. They are options and choices for the publishers/developers/user, and they both will continue to have problems and issues, as well has good things about them.
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timppu: ...but DRM in online multiplayer games will keep the cheaters away because they'd lose their investment (the game) if they were banned from the game for cheating.
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toxicTom: Simple solution: Let people host their own servers.
That doesn't really solve it when I just want to launch an online game and play with total strangers, without having to create a server of my own.

TF2 certainly has its user-made community servers and you can (apparently) create servers of your own... but they always feel so weird, trying to sell you something (like getting some extra features on the server if you pay them money), odd rules etc. I just want to join the game and play for 30 minutes, damn it. I don't want to try to agree with 16-30 online friends whether they'd like to play the game with me next Sunday 10pm sharp. Heck, maybe I myself don't feel like playing the game then, who knows.

Oh, and also I am unsure how that alone would take care of the cheaters. Even if you were a vigilant server admin and kept checking which players are (possibly) cheating... You can only ban the from your server and not from the whole game (= all servers), and that banned user (even an computer AI cheater bot) could always simply create a new throwaway Steam account and reconnect to your server, repeatedly.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by timppu
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Kadlin: There is nothing wrong with DRM. People that try to list problems with DRM fail to notice that DRM-free has the same issues.

I had bought a ton of games on dotemu a long time ago. I probably had more games than anyone on there. All DRM-free games. Then one day they shut the site and service down. This led me to not having access to download any if my paid games anymore.
There you can blame only yourself, for not downloading your games. That is the same as if you bought a physical game (CD) from a store but leave it to the store, telling them that you will pick it up later when you will actually play the game. Then the store closes down for good and you can't get your purchased game, just because you didn't transfer the game to your own possession beforehand. That is what downloading is, getting the possession of the goods you have purchased.

I did download all my purchased DotEmu games (DotEmu communicated the closure of the store to their customers and gave them some time to download them, just like Desura did; I had downloaded the games already before that though), and they are on two or three hard drives now. So yes I have access to all my purchased DotEmu games, same as e.g. with the Strategy First's "SFI Super Bundle" games I bought many years ago from their site (there was a clear requirement at SFI that you MUST download and store the game installers right there, the deal didn't include an option to redownload your games unlimited times from here to eternity).

If, however, those DotEmu games required online validation to DotEmu servers before I can install and play them... then all those downloaded DotEmu installers on my hard drive would be worthless. I couldn't use them anymore.

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Kadlin: This leads to another issue that affects old DRM-free games that came on discs, as well as these DRM-free downloaded versions. Even if you already have the game DRM-free, you cannot access any of the new updates, add-ons, extras, or whatever it is the specific game has added or will add, unless you buy the game again DRM-free from somewhere that has it.
That is totally beside the point and has absolutely nothing to do with the game being DRM-free (or not). You have that very same issue also when a store stops selling the game you purchased earlier (e.g. the publisher leaves the store; this has happened also on GOG). Most probably the publisher will not update that abandoned version anymore (even though sometimes even that has happened). The game being DRM-free or not doesn't affect this in any way.

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Kadlin: You can make the argument that I can play the game DRM-free still, and sure, I could, but if I want any updates, new content, or the ability to run it on Windows 10, I need to buy it again. Yet if I bought it on Steam on day one, I would have had to only buy it once, instead of having to buy it multiple times DRM-free.
No you can't if the Steam store closes or Steam stops selling that game because the publisher leaves Steam. Then you will be left without any further updates to the game, and in the case the store closes, you can't install and play even your unupdated version of the game anymore.

That argument has absolutely nothing to do with DRM or DRM-free.

Also, the point you raise about compatibility with Windows 10 or future/other OSes, with DRM (clients) that issue becomes even worse. Let's say you have a game on Steam that only works in Windows XP and 7, not 10. Ok so you can still play it on your old PC running Windows XP or 7, just not on your new PC with Windows 10, unless you are able to run it in a virtual machine running an older Windows or something.

Ok then, but what happens when that DRM client (in this case Steam) that you need in order to play that game, stops supporting that old Windows version (XP or 7)? So the game itself would still run fine on the old Windows, but the client that you need for installing and playing the game, doesn't. So you can't play them game at all anymore, not on your older Windows PCs (because the client refuses to run on them now), and not on Windows 10 (because the game itself has issues on it).

Meanwhile, if the game was DRM-free, it could still run fine on your older Windows PCs, or maybe a virtual machine running older Windows, or maybe Linux running WINE.

That same issue happened when Microsoft blocked SafeDisc and SecuROM DRM copy protections from working in Windows 10, rendering lots of older retail CD/DVD games unusable in Windows 10. So the games themselves might still work fine on Windows 10... but it is the DRM that prevents them from working.

You know what the solution to that is? Yep, removing that DRM with a noCD crack or such, making those games... wait for it... DRM-FREE! Wow, how could that happen, DRM-free is the solution for the game working on Windows 10?

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Kadlin: I get that fanboys will fanboy, and that forum like this are one big echo chamber, but the fact is that DRM and DRM-free both have issues with their history and neither one is better. They are options and choices for the publishers/developers/user, and they both will continue to have problems and issues, as well has good things about them.
You failed to present any arguments from the customer point of view where DRM would benefit the user. At least in single-player games, DRM-free is always better for the user, it has less risks for being able to run the game in the future.

After all, if all the old classics that GOG has released over the years had had online activation DRM in them that is now defunct and can't be removed from the games... then GOG couldn't have re-released those games on GOG. As simple as that. The only way GOG could re-release them was that the games were cracked, ie. any earlier copy protection or other DRM was first removed from them.

You live and learn.
Post edited March 15, 2020 by timppu
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Kadlin: I had bought a ton of games on dotemu a long time ago. I probably had more games than anyone on there. All DRM-free games. Then one day they shut the site and service down. This led me to not having access to download any if my paid games anymore.
Well duh... The point of DRM free is to be independent of any service - so if you didn't download and backup your games - entirely your fault. With power comes responsibility and so on...

If Steam closes tomorrow, your games there will be lost and there is nothing you can do about it. If GOG closes tomorrow you still have all your games (provided you downloaded the installers).

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Kadlin: This leads to another issue that affects old DRM-free games that came on discs, as well as these DRM-free downloaded versions. Even if you already have the game DRM-free, you cannot access any of the new updates, add-ons, extras, or whatever it is the specific game has added or will add, unless you buy the game again DRM-free from somewhere that has it.
This has nothing to do with DRM.

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Kadlin: ...but the fact is that DRM and DRM-free both have issues with their history and neither one is better.
The fact is that without DRM you're in control, which is objectively better. The fact is that DRM adds an extra layer of complexity to the software that may break with future versions of the OS (try get some games with SecuROM or TAGES working on a 64 bit OS...). Fact is that online DRM effectively chains you to a service. If they changes the rules (TOS) and you don't like it, if they ban you for something you posted on the forum (or even for trying to get a legally bought game to run which is blocked in your country - happened to several friends of mine), or if they simply shut down for whatever reason - you're fucked.
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timppu: ...
And I got ninja'd. :-)
Post edited March 15, 2020 by toxicTom
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timppu: ...
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toxicTom: And I got ninja'd. :-)
Both serve their purpose. You had the tl;dr version, more compact.