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General discussionWhat's wrong with DRM?(52 posts)(52 posts)
(52 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 13, 2020
GoG has a new opportunity to have GoMS, good old music software.
Posted March 13, 2020
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Dean478: Another text book example. It's one thing for a developer to stop supporting a product. That's fine, but it's another thing for them to essentially confiscate it from you at the same time...
Hear here to that! I bought it. What right do you have to break it?
Posted March 13, 2020
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I actually think DRM is useful and really needed!

In online multiplayer games, that is. In single-player games, no.

Why? I have explained it before, but DRM in online multiplayer games will keep the cheaters away because they'd lose their investment (the game) if they were banned from the game for cheating. Then the only way they could continue playing the game would be to buy (and activate) another copy of it.

The best incentive to make people not to cheat in online games is if they might lose money due to it. That is why e.g. the free-to-play "Casual" game mode in Team Fortress 2 is constantly full of cheaters and automated cheater bots, while the "Competitive" game mode that costs a bit of money (I paid like 80 cents for it) has no cheaters AFAIK, or at least I haven't seen any.

(The main problem in TF2 casual mode is that it is so easy to create new Steam accounts, in order to keep playing a free game. I recall reading that e.g. the earlier "cat bot" cheater bot, and probably the newer cheater bots too, automatically create several new Steam accounts in case old ones are banned. If Valve really wanted to fix this, they would make it harder to create a new Steam account, like you'd have to have a valid phone number or credit card for a new account.)

So yes, in online multiplayer games, I feel DRM may in some cases actually benefit me, the customer. In single-player games it never benefits me.
Posted March 13, 2020
So you're supposed to be already familiar with
https://www.defectivebydesign.org/

but in case you haven't, you have no excuses any more... ;-)
Posted March 13, 2020
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timppu: If Valve really wanted to fix this, they would make it harder to create a new Steam account, like you'd have to have a valid phone number or credit card for a new account.)
Hahahahahahahahahahaha... WTF would VALVe need my Phone or credit card number for? I pay with PayPal and Gaben has never expressed a desire to call me yet. Fuck the invasions of privacy companies are trying to force on us, and let's not encourage them to do more. I've never put my credit card info in on any of these gaming sites.

And DRM is unneeded. It serves little to no purpose even in MP. There were LAN and ad hoc online connections long before there was DRM. DRM just serves to take control away from the end user.
Posted March 13, 2020
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paladin181: Hahahahahahahahahahaha... WTF would VALVe need my Phone or credit card number for?
As I explained above: in order to permanently kick you out of an online game, if you cheated. Or at least until you acquire a new credit card or phone number.

In the long run, that alone would make it pretty much impossible to create such automatic cheater bots (that play autonomously without any human actually playing) that are currently infesting e.g. Team Fortress 2. The cheater program couldn't keep recreating new throwaway Steam accounts for TF2, if it always needed a new valid credit card or phone number for that.

The counter argument is that Valve doesn't want to go to such measures because they want to keep it as easy and simple as possible for new users to join their service (ie. create a new account). Ok then... in that case make it possible to select within the online games that you want to play only on servers which have such validated Steam customers. Those who don't want to validate themselves (like the cheater bots, and people like you) can play on separate servers among themselves.

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paladin181: And DRM is unneeded. It serves little to no purpose even in MP. There were LAN and ad hoc online connections long before there was DRM. DRM just serves to take control away from the end user.
You are comparing apples to oranges.

On LAN parties you know who are participating in the game (your close friends more probably), so the possibility of the cheating is close to nil, and even if someone did and you suspect so, you can easily kick them out of the game for good. You could say all the LAN players are already validated, you know who they are.

It is a different story on public online games where you usually don't personally know any of the other players.
Post edited March 13, 2020 by timppu
Posted March 13, 2020
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timppu: As I explained above: in order to permanently kick you out of an online game, if you cheated. Or at least until you acquire a new credit card or phone number.

In the long run, that alone would make it pretty much impossible to create such automatic cheater bots (that play autonomously without any human actually playing) that are currently infesting e.g. Team Fortress 2. The cheater program couldn't keep recreating new throwaway Steam accounts for TF2, if it always needed a new valid credit card or phone number for that.

The counter argument is that Valve doesn't want to go to such measures because they want to keep it as easy and simple as possible for new users to join their service (ie. create a new account). Ok then... in that case make it possible to select within the online games that you want to play only on servers which have such validated Steam customers. Those who don't want to validate themselves (like the cheater bots, and people like you) can play on separate servers among themselves.

You are comparing apples to oranges.

On LAN parties you know who are participating in the game (your close friends more probably), so the possibility of the cheating is close to nil, and even if someone did and you suspect so, you can easily kick them out of the game for good. You could say all the LAN players are already validated, you know who they are.

It is a different story on public online games where you usually don't personally know any of the other players.
Who cares though? It's a free TF2 server. I'd never give them my personal info. They'd lose so much money on that it wouldn't be funny.

Also, You put too much stock in cheaters ruining games. Dark Souls has had cheaters forever, and it's still a fun game to play online. They all have DRM, and it doesn't deter cheaters in the slightest. DRM is a losing fight because someone will always circumvent it, and then you've only inconvenienced the bad guy and actively punished the paying customer.
Posted March 14, 2020
Preservation of old software is definitely my main concern. If publishers just removed DRM a year after the game came out then I would complain soooooo much less. That said, I doubt any major service like Valve ever takes away peoples games, because it would tank their business. At least not anytime in the near future. Maybe 20-30 years form now when there's radically different technology to worry about.

If someday modern PCs are no longer "backwards compatible" and you have to build an old Windows 10 PC to play PC classics then GOG installers will surely be super popular.
Posted March 14, 2020
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StingingVelvet: I doubt any major service like Valve ever takes away peoples games, because it would tank their business.
But they do. Origin did it to me for a false infraction. It took legal intervention to rectify. So if they do it for breaking the code of conduct, why on Earth would they not do it when their business angle changes?

Look at what happened with Gamespy and Games for Windows Live. Entire catalogues were rendered useless or simply removed. I've got boxes of GFWL games that are now entirely useless and had to be purchased a second time on Steam at full cost. :/
Posted March 14, 2020
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Dean478: But they do. Origin did it to me for a false infraction. It took legal intervention to rectify.
Never really heard of this happening as long as you can prove ownership. I'll google it though. Either way, I meant "things you bought are no longer available" kind of taking away, not "you broke our rules" kind.

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Dean478: Look at what happened with Gamespy and Games for Windows Live. Entire catalogues were rendered useless or simply removed. I've got boxes of GFWL games that are now entirely useless and had to be purchased a second time on Steam at full cost. :/
Also don't know of this happening. GFWL activation still work (and aren't needed in 90% of cases, just make an offline profile). The online gameplay and features were shut down, as they always eventually are, but the games still work fine as far as I know. I just watched a video about the original Gears of War disc only GFWL release the other day, and it installed fine.

The only major service to shut down and take your content with it that I know of is the original Xbox Live, where people had DLC for games like KotOR and Splinter Cell that is no longer downloadable. There are also smaller ones of course. Still, my point is if it ever happens in a major way on a major platform it would rock the industry and the viability of digital downloads, which no company wants.
Posted March 14, 2020
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StingingVelvet: I doubt any major service like Valve ever takes away peoples games, because it would tank their business.
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Dean478: But they do. Origin did it to me for a false infraction. It took legal intervention to rectify. So if they do it for breaking the code of conduct, why on Earth would they not do it when their business angle changes?

Look at what happened with Gamespy and Games for Windows Live. Entire catalogues were rendered useless or simply removed. I've got boxes of GFWL games that are now entirely useless and had to be purchased a second time on Steam at full cost. :/
This is very interesting actually. Could even be helpful for converting a few more people maybe..

Do you happen to know any site that lists launchers/services/markets/stores/whathaveyou.. hmm. I still don't know what to call the likes of the Steam DRm, Epic, Origin, Uplay, etc..

Anyway, any site that lists occurrences where games and things have been taken away from people thanks to DRM?
Maybe even lists events wherein a person has lost programs in a currently active DRM-scheme?
Posted March 14, 2020
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Dean478: But they do. Origin did it to me for a false infraction. It took legal intervention to rectify.
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StingingVelvet: Never really heard of this happening as long as you can prove ownership. I'll google it though. Either way, I meant "things you bought are no longer available" kind of taking away, not "you broke our rules" kind.
I see. We might be talking about two different things in that case. In my particular case, and I still have all the email transcripts and consumer affairs correspondence to prove it, EA refused my proof of purchase. Hence it went to arbitration (which they also refused to attend). Thankfully Australian consumer law is quite protective and for a refunded legal cost of $50 AUD, EA was forced to return my game to my online library.

But it's quite similar to a situation where Amazon deleted an entire user's library on their Kindle platform.

Or when they removed products due to publishing conflicts and no longer being able to sell them.

I suppose the point I was trying to make is if this is the way they behave when their system is online and profitable, I wonder how they might respond when they've essentially got nothing to lose.

The only 'good' outcome I can think of in recent times is when Microsoft closed its digital book store and refunded customers their entire collection. While they lost their books, at least they got their money back. Or in the case of Groove Music store closing, people got to keep their music so long as they downloaded them in time. But I only see this as a good will gesture only someone like Microsoft could afford... And Microsoft is a trillion dollar company, unlike Steam and other vendors.
Post edited March 14, 2020 by Dean478
Posted March 14, 2020
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timppu: As I explained above: in order to permanently kick you out of an online game, if you cheated. Or at least until you acquire a new credit card or phone number.
This would be a horrible system for both users and customer support. Yet alone privacy & yet another location of a potential identity theft.

Though sticking to the problems in such a system. Well the most popular and common used EAC & BattleEye anti-cheat software throw false flags all the time. You could potentially be marked as a cheater for, forgetting to update your mouse driver, run a game through WINE, et cetera. Then your credit card and phone number are now blocked from being used. You get to enjoy going through tech support in hopes they waver a block just to use your account. No thanks! Even more of a no thanks with Valves, "F" rating of customer service due to millions of users.
Posted March 14, 2020
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Dean478: But it's quite similar to a situation where Amazon deleted an entire user's library on their Kindle platform.

Or when they removed products due to publishing conflicts and no longer being able to sell them.
I'm not at all a fan of companies having this kind of power. That's why I'm here on GOG. You were obviously triggered by my "companies will avoid loss of games because it would hurt their business" statement, due to your experience, and that's understandable. However we need to make a distinction between one-off events due to illegal practices like selling things you don't actually own, versus losing a library of games because of something not at all related to you. It's the latter I think companies like Valve will avoid at all costs, not the former.

I don't know what you did, or what EA thought you did, that got a game taken away from you. I'm happy it worked out in your favor. However it's kind of unrelated to my point, which is more about Apple, Amazon and Valve not wanting to suffer the marketing headaches of people losing libraries willy-nilly.
Post edited March 14, 2020 by StingingVelvet
Posted March 14, 2020
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Dean478: But they do. Origin did it to me for a false infraction. It took legal intervention to rectify. So if they do it for breaking the code of conduct, why on Earth would they not do it when their business angle changes?

Look at what happened with Gamespy and Games for Windows Live. Entire catalogues were rendered useless or simply removed. I've got boxes of GFWL games that are now entirely useless and had to be purchased a second time on Steam at full cost. :/
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Vendor-Lazarus: This is very interesting actually. Could even be helpful for converting a few more people maybe..

Do you happen to know any site that lists launchers/services/markets/stores/whathaveyou.. hmm. I still don't know what to call the likes of the Steam DRm, Epic, Origin, Uplay, etc..

Anyway, any site that lists occurrences where games and things have been taken away from people thanks to DRM?
Maybe even lists events wherein a person has lost programs in a currently active DRM-scheme?
The problem is that it becomes too hard to verify information and it even just becomes unproductive. I'd much rather spend the time and energy playing games and being involved with a community that feels the same way. :)
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionWhat's wrong with DRM?(52 posts)(52 posts)
(52 posts)