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GameRager: Not to sound x-phobic or anything(or go too offtopic here), but i'm pretty sure only pregnant(and those slightly after pregnancy) can lactate. This is why women in the past who couldn't lactate always went to those who were pregnant/those who were recently pregnant as surrogate feeders.
https://breastfeedingusa.org/content/article/breastfeeding-your-adopted-baby-0

In other words, you are actually incorrect here.

(Plus, the case of going to somebody else as a surrogate feeders means that, even if your statement were correct, it wouldn't invalidate my point.)
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GameRager: Some of the main reasons GMO foods are considered bad/bad for people is because "x corporation is bad so y thing they do must also have bad effects on people/the planet by default and in all cases" style fear tactics and paranoia being spread.
Can we both agree that plants producing insecticides and poison is bad?

Honestly genetic engineering could be a good thing in some scenarios, but they are unneccesary; Also i don't trust the people/corporations pushing it.

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GameRager: I agree that patenting plants is bad(because it leads to lawsuits via seeds crosspollinating via wind currents into other people's fields & it keeps people from building on those ideas or poorer people using them), but being against something because it's "unnatural" is insane.
I'm against things that have an adverse negative effect as a whole against the population and myself.

Calculators are inherently not natural; However they are useful. However because people get lazy a number of people don't know how to do simple math anymore.

So are calculators a bad thing because a lot of people didn't memorize their 10x10 tables? Don't know how to do division multiplication and basic math?

... Maybe?

Definitely if/when there's say an EMP burst that takes out all electrical components for 100 miles and you're suddenly stuck unable to do anything because you relegated all things complicated to machines you don't understand. Most people can't live without the 'unnatural' anymore. Some people don't know where honey comes from, and when i refer to it as bee vomit they are confused and repulsed.

Honestly? I think new and better things would be better. But so many things are introduced far faster than as a society/world than we can understand them, their effects that we are creating our own monsters. Monsters that will one day slay it. Be it AI, a super virus we can't deal with because we killed all the good bacteria that would keep it in check, or cancer and autism from the poisons forced on everyone.
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GameRager: Not to sound x-phobic or anything(or go too offtopic here), but i'm pretty sure only pregnant(and those slightly after pregnancy) can lactate. This is why women in the past who couldn't lactate always went to those who were pregnant/those who were recently pregnant as surrogate feeders.
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dtgreene: https://breastfeedingusa.org/content/article/breastfeeding-your-adopted-baby-0

In other words, you are actually incorrect here.

(Plus, the case of going to somebody else as a surrogate feeders means that, even if your statement were correct, it wouldn't invalidate my point.)
From reading that, it seems it takes a bit of time/prep to induce the lactation(vs lactating when pregnant/after such). But yes, I concede the point to you this time. :)

BTW, thanks for the refreshing dialog.....it's hard to find good/intellectual dialog(beyond name calling/hyperbole/strawmanning/etc) in many places nowadays.
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rtcvb32: Can we both agree that plants producing insecticides and poison is bad?
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Honestly genetic engineering could be a good thing in some scenarios, but they are unneccesary; Also i don't trust the people/corporations pushing it.
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I'm against things that have an adverse negative effect as a whole against the population and myself.

Calculators are inherently not natural; However they are useful. However because people get lazy a number of people don't know how to do simple math anymore.

So are calculators a bad thing because a lot of people didn't memorize their 10x10 tables? Don't know how to do division multiplication and basic math?

... Maybe?

Definitely if/when there's say an EMP burst that takes out all electrical components for 100 miles and you're suddenly stuck unable to do anything because you relegated all things complicated to machines you don't understand. Most people can't live without the 'unnatural' anymore. Some people don't know where honey comes from, and when i refer to it as bee vomit they are confused and repulsed.
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Honestly? I think new and better things would be better. But so many things are introduced far faster than as a society/world than we can understand them, their effects that we are creating our own monsters. Monsters that will one day slay it. Be it AI, a super virus we can't deal with because we killed all the good bacteria that would keep it in check, or cancer and autism from the poisons forced on everyone.
I thought I already DID agree(several times, in fact) on that point.....in this very thread, in fact. ;)
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You say it's unnecessary, but the growing population(and lack of fertile places to grow/dwindling fertilizers/etc) says otherwise. Some modification(and produced species) will be needed elsewise we'll have to starve off many people.
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I agree reliance on things can be bad if SHTF....hopefully we'll never have to find out. This doesn't mean such devices/things can't ever have a use or be an net benefit, though.
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Then we better pray/hope such doesn't happen , or that society can overcome such/prevent such in time.
Post edited April 18, 2019 by GameRager
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GameRager: You say it's unnecessary, but the growing population(and lack of fertile places to grow/dwindling fertilizers/etc) says otherwise. Some modification(and produced species) will be needed elsewise we'll have to starve off many people.
Dwindling fertilizers... lack of space.. *sigh*

My parents have a 12x12 area for a garden, it produces so much food it's insane. They say they have to spend 2 months just canning to try and preserve all the food. I'm not sure 'space' is so much an issue as it bad practices in 'modern farming'.

As for fertilizers... how many tons of leaves, wood chips, bark, grass, etc is just thrown away... If it composts it's fertilizer, it just isn't ready for use for 3-6 months. There's no shortage of fertilizer. People are too lazy to make their own.

Also have you looked into the grading systems for food? A grade A apple has to be a certain size and shape. If it's not it's a lower grade (Even if it's bigger). I visited my girlfriend (back in 2000) who was living at a house where across the street, was an apple orchard. A large number of the apples were MASSIVE. But they only picked the ones that were 'Grade A' because values/profits. Many of the other apples just drop off and end up rotting at some point, or neighbors collect them and use them for their own foods. I filled a 5 gallon bucket of huge apples and ate it over 4 days. (yum....)

I don't think that the current/potential food production is the problem.
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rtcvb32: Dwindling fertilizers... lack of space.. *sigh*

My parents have a 12x12 area for a garden, it produces so much food it's insane. They say they have to spend 2 months just canning to try and preserve all the food. I'm not sure 'space' is so much an issue as it bad practices in 'modern farming'.
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As for fertilizers... how many tons of leaves, wood chips, bark, grass, etc is just thrown away... If it composts it's fertilizer, it just isn't ready for use for 3-6 months. There's no shortage of fertilizer. People are too lazy to make their own.

Also have you looked into the grading systems for food? A grade A apple has to be a certain size and shape. If it's not it's a lower grade (Even if it's bigger). I visited my girlfriend (back in 2000) who was living at a house where across the street, was an apple orchard. A large number of the apples were MASSIVE. But they only picked the ones that were 'Grade A' because values/profits. Many of the other apples just drop off and end up rotting at some point, or neighbors collect them and use them for their own foods. I filled a 5 gallon bucket of huge apples and ate it over 4 days. (yum....)
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I don't think that the current/potential food production is the problem.
It is space, in many cases.....massive amounts of land are needed to grow for the massive amounts of people on earth(vs a family running a small farm for their own use having a surplus as a result). Also, many areas on earth are unusable(either period/full stop.....due to lack of proper climate/etc or because other things like buildings/etc take up space that could be used for such), or are only suited for certain crops.(Yes, growhouses exist, but to grow some crops in growhouses would be expensive/unfeasible on such scales)
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As for fertilizer....I meant stuff like phosphates/etc needed by some farmers. Some of those things must be collected/mined and are in short supply(naturally occuring). Some currently fertile/usable land is also becominfg depleted of certain minerals/etc due to lack of crop rotation due to gov't mandates/quotas on farmers harvests and the like.
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It will be a problem if people don't rotate crops like they should, pollute the land/air/water ever further, populations get much bigger, certain minerals/compounds run out over time, etc.
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dtgreene: Problems with sports: … There's always a loser. (Encountering sore winners as a child is one thing that contributes to me having an issue with this.)
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GameRager: That's just how life is, though… in life there's always a loser in most things/events. … People who lose will either try harder (and get better physically/mentally/spiritually through being tested as a result), or realize that their chosen hobby/profession isn't really a good fit and they will go on to try other things that they WILL excel in. … People who "lose" actually win by developing thicker skin/stronger character.
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GreasyDogMeat: This is one of the most valuable life lessons a person will learn.
+1
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dtgreene: … there doesn't need to be competition with other people for the term "winner" to have any meaning. …
I can get into a lava lamp in a club, sure, but sports are on in a social setting to be a background for people to talk over and prompt verbal participation when the conversation stalls in the pub (O, did you see that goal?, etc.) where sport is a useful proxy for human endeavour and (ever-present) competition.
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dtgreene: … more relevant to the "sore winners" comment … many people feel that they don't have permission to lose. …
Pathology is no excuse for demonizing legitimate praxis.
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dtgreene: … I consider any suggestion to grow thicker skin to be quite offensive …
That's a shame, since some tempering is good and necessary, lest we all be hyper-sensitive to (and hyper-vigilant for) "unintentional" insults and "micro-aggressions". It creates a vicious cycle of confirmation bias. (It's not all about you, etc.)
I'm not excusing hate-speak, though; deliberate attacks for mean reasons are not acceptable, but a sense of balance and a modicum of humility are good for mental health, and something that is not promoted in the current hostile climate of offence-taking.
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GameRager: If an event/sport has one set winner (usually among two teams/players) according to points scored/time spent, then no … not everyone can or should win.
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dtgreene: If the event has just one set winner, then it is an event that I would prefer to avoid.
Yes, but other people actually prefer it.
Generally, it's a testosterone thing, because males are programmed to compete, and then they are friends; whereas females are more socially-constructive, aiming to make friends. (And then they compete! :)
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GameRager: 2. Why? Why is the thought of someone losing so hard to accept? We all lose at something at some point. In those cases it's best to remember the old mantra of changing what you can (for the better), accepting that some things can't be changed/bettered to a significant degree (in this case losing at some things because of lack of skill/talent/luck/etc), and knowing how to tell the difference & live with it
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dtgreene: The problem isn't so much losing, but rather … when … someone loses because of the actions of others
Failure is a natural part of life. Banning failure won’t prevent competition. Learning to fail is an essential mental proficiency, since nobody is perfect and failure is a reliable step to success, given insight and determination (which are also concomitant and very important soft skills).
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dtgreene: … Losing to someone who is a good sport and has the mindset of a teacher could definitely be a good learning experience. …
Exactly.
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paladin181: Teaching children to win and lose gracefully is the parents' responsibility. …
And one that was lost in the 70s progressive parent experiment (acting as "friends"). Now we have a culture that cannot gracefully lose: "Not my president", etc.
Like the mayor in Robocop: "I wan'na recount. … And this time, I wan'na win!"

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Emob78: … I used to think that technology would help save us. Now it's kind of the opposite.

They have a saying in comedy. They say your job is to always be entertaining the dumbest person in the room. I think you could make the same statement now for tech. In the 90s we were talking about an open source, free internet that would help people gain true knowledge and level the playing field against those in power. Now we're shadow banning people on Twitter because they said they didn't like Kim Kardassian's new hair-do … it is truly sad to watch unfold.
I guess open source (because it is anarchic) leads to no responsibility (no one to defend "their" tech). Probably requires some Tech Knights to police the interwebs, but then we have institutional corruption as well, and Knights Templar, etc.
It's the old Microsoft Windows-versus-Linux trope; without Microsoft there wouldn't be an internet, or at least one as ubiquitous as we have, and without Linux we'd all be scanning out bar-coded foreheads to access our home television to watch the authorized news and receive a discount on our evening game play.

The truth is evolution, which includes human society, is a Red Queen proposition, and the "job" is never finished.
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paladin181: Smart phones in general. … Is it really so important to be connected RIGHT NOW that you can't wait until you get to your destination?
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DadJoke007: I hate smartphones and the zombiefied idiot culture that it created. …
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paladin181: Basically this.
It is a mistake to believe that Facebook, et alia, just "happened". There are some very smart and well paid people in Silicon Valley who have designed software to be addictive and (at least initially) useful, so that they can monetize their intellectual property for maximum gain.
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toxicTom: First the mobile phones: Suddenly seemingly everyone around was loudly announcing their most private things in public, not caring if people around would listen in...
Now with the smartphones people have secluded into their own private worlds - ears shut by earbuds, environment drowned out by music, and the eyes fixed on the display.
For many reasons, consumers are prevented from anything that might distract them from consuming.
Like, for instance, some peace to think about important rather than urgent actions they need to do.
Better to hector them, create a feeling of imbalance, make them feel anxious for not keeping connected (FoMO).
It's a business strategy to maximize profits, since there is no (direct business) cost involved. The indirect cost is, since the invention of the smartphone, depression and suicide rates have more than quadrupled for both boys and girls. (The young are vulnerable to the thought that what they see is the truth: all those "influencers" live the fantastic lives they purport.)
The only defence I can conceive is education.
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Emob78: … I saw it coming back in the Myspace days and even got rid of that around 2006 or so. Once Google grabbed up Youtube I deleted my account there as well. Only way to get in touch with me now is through cell or private email. Because of social media, my presence online has become limited basically to email and a few forums like this one. I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. …
+1
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timppu: … Which reminds me that earlier "wireless" (no power cord) used to mean that you do use removable batteries. … I wonder why that has changed? …
Steve Jobs specifically chose integrated batteries because, to be removable, a battery must have protection for both human hands and the delicate internal circuitry, which adds weight and thus cost to the device. Everyone else just followed the lead, I suppose.
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carpediem15: For me, I dislike all the voice activated devices, like Siri and Alexa. There seems to be something built into them that just listens to what you are saying. …
Amazon recently admitted they have staff employed (surprise!) to analyze people's conversations.
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Karterii1993: YouTube … I say all of this as a YouTube addict!
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Emob78: … Self-awareness-free socialist kids whining about being demonetized by monolithic corporations (that they voluntarily signed up with to make money), causing them to lose money while they play video games and ranting about needing more government regulations and higher taxes so everyone will have more time and money to play even more video games (again, owned by the very corporations that they rant about). … But that's what happens when you weaponize laziness. … The entire western world will soon be filled with narcissistic, self absorbed, tech-addicted lunatics lacking any principles or ethics.

… envy those Amazonian tribes … the most red-pilled of all.
+1
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GameRager: By allowing such, people are given a place to vent and relieve stress/get stuff out of their system in a place away from the "normalized" masses, while being kept in check for illegal/threatening content (via mods/etc reporting such to the relevant authorities).
It also allows patently ludicrous statements to be debunked in (a dark corner of) the public square, which is the only reliable defence against them. Sunlight is the best disinfectant; to ban a meme simply gives those who propound it the excuse that they are being repressed.
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rtcvb32: … I'm against things that have an adverse negative effect as a whole against the population and myself. Calculators are inherently not natural; However they are useful. However because people get lazy a number of people don't know how to do simple math anymore. … Definitely if/when there's say an EMP burst … and you're suddenly stuck unable to do anything because you relegated all things complicated to machines you don't understand. …
Socrates complained that writing was the end of memory. :D
Wait until a Coronal Mass Ejection takes out every satellite and integrated circuit that isn't in a hardened case.
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scientiae: 1. Pathology is no excuse for demonizing legitimate praxis.

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2. That's a shame, since some tempering is good and necessary, lest we all be hyper-sensitive to (and hyper-vigilant for) "unintentional" insults and "micro-aggressions". It creates a vicious cycle of confirmation bias. (It's not all about you, etc.)
I'm not excusing hate-speak, though; deliberate attacks for mean reasons are not acceptable, but a sense of balance and a modicum of humility are good for mental health, and something that is not promoted in the current hostile climate of offence-taking.

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3. Yes, but other people actually prefer it.
Generally, it's a testosterone thing, because males are programmed to compete, and then they are friends; whereas females are more socially-constructive, aiming to make friends. (And then they compete! :)

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4. Failure is a natural part of life. Banning failure won’t prevent competition. Learning to fail is an essential mental proficiency, since nobody is perfect and failure is a reliable step to success, given insight and determination (which are also concomitant and very important soft skills).

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5. And one that was lost in the 70s progressive parent experiment (acting as "friends"). Now we have a culture that cannot gracefully lose: "Not my president", etc.
Like the mayor in Robocop: "I wan'na recount. … And this time, I wan'na win!"

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6. I guess open source (because it is anarchic) leads to no responsibility (no one to defend "their" tech). Probably requires some Tech Knights to police the interwebs, but then we have institutional corruption as well, and Knights Templar, etc.
It's the old Microsoft Windows-versus-Linux trope; without Microsoft there wouldn't be an internet, or at least one as ubiquitous as we have, and without Linux we'd all be scanning out bar-coded foreheads to access our home television to watch the authorized news and receive a discount on our evening game play.

The truth is evolution, which includes human society, is a Red Queen proposition, and the "job" is never finished.

7. It is a mistake to believe that Facebook, et alia, just "happened". There are some very smart and well paid people in Silicon Valley who have designed software to be addictive and (at least initially) useful, so that they can monetize their intellectual property for maximum gain.

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8. Steve Jobs specifically chose integrated batteries because, to be removable, a battery must have protection for both human hands and the delicate internal circuitry, which adds weight and thus cost to the device. Everyone else just followed the lead, I suppose.

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9. Amazon recently admitted they have staff employed (surprise!) to analyze people's conversations.

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10.
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Emob78: … Self-awareness-free socialist kids whining about being demonetized by monolithic corporations (that they voluntarily signed up with to make money), causing them to lose money while they play video games and ranting about needing more government regulations and higher taxes so everyone will have more time and money to play even more video games (again, owned by the very corporations that they rant about). … But that's what happens when you weaponize laziness. … The entire western world will soon be filled with narcissistic, self absorbed, tech-addicted lunatics lacking any principles or ethics.

… envy those Amazonian tribes … the most red-pilled of all.
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scientiae: +1
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11.
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GameRager: By allowing such, people are given a place to vent and relieve stress/get stuff out of their system in a place away from the "normalized" masses, while being kept in check for illegal/threatening content (via mods/etc reporting such to the relevant authorities).
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scientiae: It also allows patently ludicrous statements to be debunked in (a dark corner of) the public square, which is the only reliable defence against them. Sunlight is the best disinfectant; to ban a meme simply gives those who propound it the excuse that they are being repressed.

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12.
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rtcvb32: … I'm against things that have an adverse negative effect as a whole against the population and myself. Calculators are inherently not natural; However they are useful. However because people get lazy a number of people don't know how to do simple math anymore. … Definitely if/when there's say an EMP burst … and you're suddenly stuck unable to do anything because you relegated all things complicated to machines you don't understand. …
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scientiae: Socrates complained that writing was the end of memory. :D
Wait until a Coronal Mass Ejection takes out every satellite and integrated circuit that isn't in a hardened case.
1. Thanks and +1 for causing me to look something up(praxis).

2. As someone once said, combat/adversity helps build character/is the true test of one's mettle. And yes, hate speech is bad/wrong/wrongbad, but hiding from all adversity just causes one to be hypersensitive and easy to offend.

3. It's also more fulfilling for some when they have to work to achieve something, rather than being given an award/accolade by fault with no effort/attempt made.

4. This. People will compete with other things(or things within things where everyone is a winner) anyways, and often good(social bonding/etc) can come from such.

(Also +1 for using much better terms/wording than I could ever hope so. What are ya, man, some sort of walking thesaurus/dictionary? :))

5. The whole "every kid is special/important" thing(by parents/schools), while good in the short term(for self-esteem/etc) was detrimental as well, in that it further made future generations susceptible to taking offense more easily/not being able to handle more harsh life lessons.

The same could also be said for colleges that push every nonsense degree imaginable while calling them all equally valid career study options(which can make the student money/get them a job/etc) while promoting(along with others) the whole "college is needed to succeed/get a good job & every college graduate will land a good job afterwards" deception.

Because of such we have a ton of people with near worthless(in general or due to market saturation) degrees in things like poetry & women's/men's studies, and even a ton of graduates in worthwhile fields(engineering/IT/etc) being outbid by those who will work cheaper/longer.

6&7. Both sad but true.

8. I think he/others also did it(like appliances use non-standard screws and glued/sealed tech) to make repairing stuff/replacing batteries harder to do, making replacing the tech or having an official repair center do it the easier/more desirable option.

9. Big reply: Google was also outed(via a youtuber who downloaded all his google saved data) as saving way more data than they should. Stuff like home assistance devices(alexa/etc) recordings, searches(obviously), google drive files(even after they were deleted by users), etc. And they do/did it ALL as non-encypted files on the open internet(well they use randomized long arse strings as urls but still).

10. Tbh I'd rather have access to prompt medical care and entertainment/food/etc than what remote tribes have, but that's just me. 0.o


11. Also those being marginalized(or who feel like they are) are the ones more likely to become desperate when/if they feel no one will listen/they have nowhere else to turn.

12. Joke's on you guys.....I live in a faraday cage with years of media to consume. :p :D
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Strijkbout: Is that because you live so remote that you need a satalite uplink?
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teceem: The topic is about technology you hate, not about technology you can't use for some reason. ;-)
I hate the current trend of technology services that are designed to make life easier but end up making it more complicated. From streaming services that require a subscription to access content to online banking that requires multiple passwords and security codes, these services are difficult to manage and often don't provide the convenience they promise. Additionally, many of these services are difficult to cancel and require extensive customer service interactions to terminate, making them a hassle to deal with. I understand the need for increased security and convenience, but I think the current technology services have gone too far and are more of a burden than a help.
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josephmack: I hate the current trend of technology services that are designed to make life easier but end up making it more complicated. From streaming services that require a subscription to access content to online banking that requires multiple passwords and security codes, these services are difficult to manage and often don't provide the convenience they promise. Additionally, many of these services are difficult to cancel and require extensive customer service interactions to terminate, making them a hassle to deal with. I understand the need for increased security and convenience, but I think the current technology services have gone too far and are more of a burden than a help.
Fun fact; I recently went to start using a credit card's website to keep track of charges. Even though I entered my detail correctly, it said my details didn't match what they had on file and wouldn't let me in. The help bot was useless (it directed me to the page I was already on).