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General discussionWhat game will *never* be released on GOG.com(167 posts)(167 posts)
(167 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 22, 2015
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JMich: Denuvo is a method of ensuring that a file (or collection of files) are not modified. It does use multiple methods of verifying the integrity, as well as multiple times when it does the checks, but it remains an integrity checker. The inability to check the contents of the protected file is a byproduct of said integrity checking (and I'm not sure if the encryption/obfuscation can be disabled by the one implementing Denuvo).

What was it that you posted in another thread about a knife not being evil? Denuvo is a knife. It's an instrument that can be used to do specific work, though it can be misused to do other stuff as well. So no, Denuvo isn't evil. Denuvo is there to make sure files are not tampered with, which doesn't make it incompatible with DRM-Free software.
well no, for me denuvo is a gun... there is no reason to use it.... and there is no reason to trust the creator of secuROM
also it threatens to undermine the future functioning, so it is similar to a DRM (and I consider that).
Post edited September 22, 2015 by LiefLayer
Posted September 22, 2015
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LiefLayer: well no, for me denuvo is a gun... there is no reason to use it....
There are reasons to use guns, though not often, and mostly for deterring purposes (I have a gun, so don't attack me, so I won't have to use it).

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LiefLayer: and there is no reason to trust the creator of secuROM
Your call.

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LiefLayer: also it threatens to undermine the future functioning, so it is similar to a DRM (and I consider that).
It does? How? If the one that programmed the software protected by Denuvo has done a proper coding job, the future functioning will be maintained. And if it requires changing later on, that means the source code should be kept instead of being tossed away. So not only should Denuvo lead to games being easier modded, but it should also help keep source codes properly backed up.
Or do you mean that if Denuvo stops functioning, the protected software will no longer function? How is that different from the 16-bit software been hard to run nowdays, unless you use a virtual environment that can run it?
Posted September 22, 2015
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JMich: There are reasons to use guns, though not often, and mostly for deterring purposes (I have a gun, so don't attack me, so I won't have to use it).

Your call.

It does? How? If the one that programmed the software protected by Denuvo has done a proper coding job, the future functioning will be maintained. And if it requires changing later on, that means the source code should be kept instead of being tossed away. So not only should Denuvo lead to games being easier modded, but it should also help keep source codes properly backed up.
Or do you mean that if Denuvo stops functioning, the protected software will no longer function? How is that different from the 16-bit software been hard to run nowdays, unless you use a virtual environment that can run it?
In my country, owning a gun is illegal (and it is difficult to have a firearms license), in the USA for example, because of the freedom that anyone can have a gun, accidents happen often (just a fool purchase a gun, and makes a massacre... it can happen in my country too, but much more rarely). A gun is made to hurt, no other purpose, it is not useful. The only utility is to be able to copy it in games / movies / comics. There are many other ways to defend yourself without using a gun. There are pepper spray and other weapons much less harmful (and any fool with a pepper spray, is much less dangerous).
if you are a policeman there's a reason, you have to deal with criminals, but here the comparison with denuvo goes down the drain.

Denuvo, does not allow you to know what's really inside the executable (.exe for windows).
This means you may not be able one day to adapt the game if the software company fails or some other reason.
Just for DRM many games today are difficult to adapt, GOG did a huge job, and sometimes was forced to use the floppy disk version (DOS) instead of the CD version (Windows) for that very reason.
There is no reason to believe that a software house will update a game forever. And there is no reason to believe that it will work forever.
Using Denuvo (like any other form of protection) will only makes things worse.
If I wanted to just play the games once, why should I be concerned about drm? because I worry also about the future.
Maybe one day I will play with my children.

True, some software will cease to function anyway, but if software stops working because of a protection buyer as it is my duty to oppose.
Post edited September 22, 2015 by LiefLayer
Posted September 22, 2015
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JMich: ...but they couldn't prevent the program from being executed if they failed....
At least this part is not really needed for DRM free software. Since you would naturally not want to run programs where the integrity check fails. No need to actually force that decision upon anyone. So while this new product may cover a few things it probably covers too many to be useful for GOG. It might just create more hassle then what it's worth.
Posted September 22, 2015
Stuff like Diablo 3, Starcraft and WoW are so tightly woven into Battle.net I can't see how they would function without it. CSGO and TF2 would be the same, both of those games survive because of Steam.
Posted September 22, 2015
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LiefLayer: In my country, owning a gun is illegal
It's not. Do check your country's laws, but owning a gun is not illegal, just like driving a car isn't illegal. One has to obtain the proper paperwork first (just like in America). The proper papers may be harder to obtain, but one can legally own a gun in Italy, even if they are not a member of the armed forces.

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LiefLayer: A gun is made to hurt, no other purpose, it is not useful.
Quite the opposite. A gun is made to prevent one from hurting. Who do you find an easier target, a person with a gun or a person without one? As I said before, a gun can be used as a deterrent to violence, since you do warn the other person in advance that you can hurt them if they attempt to hurt you.
Concealed weapons on the other hand are made for killing, since you do not advertise the fact that you are carrying a gun.

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LiefLayer: There are many other ways to defend yourself without using a gun.
Again, the gun isn't there to defend yourself. It is there so you won't have to defend yourself. If you do find yourself in a situation where you do need to defend yourself, a knife may be a better choice, since you'll most likely be in hand to hand combat. If you have distance from your attacker, running away may be better.
The gun talk though is quite off topic with this thread, so I'll drop it.

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LiefLayer: Denuvo, does not allow you to know what's really inside the executable (.exe for windows).
This means you may not be able one day to adapt the game if the software company fails or some other reason.
Again, I'm not sure if Denuvo can be used without encrypting the executable. I wouldn't be surprised if it can, but I don't have that good of a knowledge on the inner workings of Denuvo.

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LiefLayer: Just for DRM many games today are difficult to adapt, GOG did a huge job, and sometimes was forced to use the floppy disk version (DOS) instead of the CD version (Windows) for that very reason.
I was under the impression that the reason they went with the Dos version instead of the Windows one was compatibility, not DRM. Especially since the early CD-Rom games didn't have any DRM, but instead used the medium itself as a copy protection, since copying CDs was a real pain back in the 95-98 period.
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Trilarion: Since you would naturally not want to run programs where the integrity check fails.
That is of course assuming that you do run the integrity check before running the program. And depending on what the program does when you run it, you may need to have more checks in place before allowing it to run.
Let's give the example of a BIOS upgrade. Installing a wrong update can brick your machine, so you are advised to double check the upgrade's validity before running the update. A method that would prevent the update from running if the files were modified could be useful.
Yes, there are times when you need a modified BIOS, so a method to bypass said check would be useful as well. But saying that a DRM-Free software doesn't require checks to prevent it from running if modified is naive.
Post edited September 22, 2015 by JMich
Posted September 22, 2015
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Gnostic: But MMO can run on your own server, or a powerful enough PC.
http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-a-WoW-Private-Server-in-15-minutes/

It is just companies like their DRM and spread the lie that MMO and other online games cannot be DRM free.
Yeap I know that. Used to play a lot in Lineage 2 on *unofficial* server. Lie or not official MMO can be played only on authorized servers, meaning authentication and subsequent DRM.
Posted September 22, 2015
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JMich: It's not. Do check your country's laws, but owning a gun is not illegal, just like driving a car isn't illegal. One has to obtain the proper paperwork first (just like in America). The proper papers may be harder to obtain, but one can legally own a gun in Italy, even if they are not a member of the armed forces.

Quite the opposite. A gun is made to prevent one from hurting. Who do you find an easier target, a person with a gun or a person without one? As I said before, a gun can be used as a deterrent to violence, since you do warn the other person in advance that you can hurt them if they attempt to hurt you.
Concealed weapons on the other hand are made for killing, since you do not advertise the fact that you are carrying a gun.

Again, the gun isn't there to defend yourself. It is there so you won't have to defend yourself. If you do find yourself in a situation where you do need to defend yourself, a knife may be a better choice, since you'll most likely be in hand to hand combat. If you have distance from your attacker, running away may be better.
The gun talk though is quite off topic with this thread, so I'll drop it.

Again, I'm not sure if Denuvo can be used without encrypting the executable. I wouldn't be surprised if it can, but I don't have that good of a knowledge on the inner workings of Denuvo.

I was under the impression that the reason they went with the Dos version instead of the Windows one was compatibility, not DRM. Especially since the early CD-Rom games didn't have any DRM, but instead used the medium itself as a copy protection, since copying CDs was a real pain back in the 95-98 period.
That is of course assuming that you do run the integrity check before running the program. And depending on what the program does when you run it, you may need to have more checks in place before allowing it to run.
Let's give the example of a BIOS upgrade. Installing a wrong update can brick your machine, so you are advised to double check the upgrade's validity before running the update. A method that would prevent the update from running if the files were modified could be useful.
Yes, there are times when you need a modified BIOS, so a method to bypass said check would be useful as well. But saying that a DRM-Free software doesn't require checks to prevent it from running if modified is naive.
you checked wrong ... almost no one is armed in Italy and very few have a gun, and if you have a license you still cannot carry a weapon (you can only keep that in your home). certainly there is a firearms license (that you can use to carry weapon), but in the US they sell at the supermarket and a ex-criminal can get a legal weapon (in italy an ex-criminal cannot get a weapon).
if you go to "police" and ask a firearms license for self-defense, they do not give you the almost ever ... to get around armed, you must have a very good reason (almost no one is authorized). Even those who are threatened by the Mafia is more likely to get a escort compared to obtain a firearms license.
a gun is made to hurt ... only gun manufacturers say otherwise. if there were no weapons the world would be a better place. the police should have guns, there is no reason for which civilians should have them. if somebody run you don't have to fire.
I'll drop it too.

there are several reason for use floppy instead cd vesion (cd's can use or not DRM), one can be that a game protection for windows made it really difficult to port to modern os, so it's much easier to use a DOSbox wrapper instead. there are many old games that doesn't have the source anymore, if you cannot reverse the executable because of the protection you cannot use that version, gog made a really great work with lots of game because of that.

check integrity is different from what denuvo does... denuvo check if you use the software like the developer want you to use it. it stop you not because they want that the software is safe, but because they don't trust you. you cannot tell if denuvo can be used without online check because we don't know what denuvo really does. it's a malicious software to the freedom of consumers (those who pay).
although gog could decides not to consider denuvo a drm, I would exclude any game that uses denuvo from my list.
Post edited September 22, 2015 by LiefLayer
Posted September 22, 2015
Everything from Blizzard and Valve.
I still have hopes for Westwood though, since CDPR/GoG was seen having talks with EA and I just hope it isn't because EA may buy GoG. ;)
Posted September 22, 2015
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JMich: It's not. Do check your country's laws, but owning a gun is not illegal, just like driving a car isn't illegal. One has to obtain the proper paperwork first (just like in America). The proper papers may be harder to obtain, but one can legally own a gun in Italy, even if they are not a member of the armed forces.

Quite the opposite. A gun is made to prevent one from hurting. Who do you find an easier target, a person with a gun or a person without one? As I said before, a gun can be used as a deterrent to violence, since you do warn the other person in advance that you can hurt them if they attempt to hurt you.
Concealed weapons on the other hand are made for killing, since you do not advertise the fact that you are carrying a gun.

Again, the gun isn't there to defend yourself. It is there so you won't have to defend yourself. If you do find yourself in a situation where you do need to defend yourself, a knife may be a better choice, since you'll most likely be in hand to hand combat. If you have distance from your attacker, running away may be better.
The gun talk though is quite off topic with this thread, so I'll drop it.

Again, I'm not sure if Denuvo can be used without encrypting the executable. I wouldn't be surprised if it can, but I don't have that good of a knowledge on the inner workings of Denuvo.

I was under the impression that the reason they went with the Dos version instead of the Windows one was compatibility, not DRM. Especially since the early CD-Rom games didn't have any DRM, but instead used the medium itself as a copy protection, since copying CDs was a real pain back in the 95-98 period.
That is of course assuming that you do run the integrity check before running the program. And depending on what the program does when you run it, you may need to have more checks in place before allowing it to run.
Let's give the example of a BIOS upgrade. Installing a wrong update can brick your machine, so you are advised to double check the upgrade's validity before running the update. A method that would prevent the update from running if the files were modified could be useful.
Yes, there are times when you need a modified BIOS, so a method to bypass said check would be useful as well. But saying that a DRM-Free software doesn't require checks to prevent it from running if modified is naive.
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LiefLayer: you checked wrong ... almost no one is armed in Italy and very few have a gun, and if you have a license you still cannot carry a weapon (you can only keep that in your home). certainly there is a firearms license (that you can use to carry weapon), but in the US they sell at the supermarket and a ex-criminal can get a legal weapon (in italy an ex-criminal cannot get a weapon).
if you go to "police" and ask a firearms license for self-defense, they do not give you the almost ever ... to get around armed, you must have a very good reason (almost no one is authorized). Even those who are threatened by the Mafia is more likely to get a escort compared to obtain a firearms license.
a gun is made to hurt ... only gun manufacturers say otherwise. if there were no weapons the world would be a better place. the police should have guns, there is no reason for which civilians should have them. if somebody run you don't have to fire.
I'll drop it too.

there are several reason for use floppy instead cd vesion (cd's can use or not DRM), one can be that a game protection for windows made it really difficult to port to modern os, so it's much easier to use a DOSbox wrapper instead. there are many old games that doesn't have the source anymore, if you cannot reverse the executable because of the protection you cannot use that version, gog made a really great work with lots of game because of that.

check integrity is different from what denuvo does... denuvo check if you use the software like the developer want you to use it. it stop you not because they want that the software is safe, but because they don't trust you. you cannot tell if denuvo can be used without online check because we don't know what denuvo really does. it's a malicious software to the freedom of consumers (those who pay).
although gog could decides not to consider denuvo a drm, I would exclude any game that uses denuvo from my list.
There have been weapons in the world as long as there has been man existing in the world. Your own hands are a weapon you know.
Posted September 22, 2015
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Klumpen0815: Everything from Blizzard and Valve.
I still have hopes for Westwood though, since CDPR/GoG was seen having talks with EA and I just hope it isn't because EA may buy GoG. ;)
Oh, I hope so much that you are right about Westwood games Klumpen.
Posted September 22, 2015
Fallout 3 (maybe ~ October 2020)
Fallout: New Vegas (maybe ~ October 2022)
Fallout 4 (maybe ~ Nov 2027)


However, they may "eventually" when they are around the same age as the other Bethesda release that is on GOG (e.g.Morrowind [Original Release May 1, 2002]).

*Note* Excluded Fallout, Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel, and Fallout 2 *Note*
Posted September 22, 2015
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Cadaver747: Please provide a link where it's possible to buy a digital download copy for PC or Mac.
Of course since it's not even a game.
:)
Posted September 22, 2015
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JMich: ...But saying that a DRM-Free software doesn't require checks to prevent it from running if modified is naive.
Is it? I rather don't think so. Making checks optional or if you want running the checks more or less automatic before the start is absolutely enough for me and I guess for most others too. I'm happy with an integrity check which I can turn on or off and which is not required. Is this really naive? I highly doubt it.

But having a system that needs to heavily secretive guard itself to be able to really force checks on you - that is rather strange and maybe a bit crazy too. It's a bit like the user doesn't trust himself.

Hopefully GOG will never employ this.
Posted September 22, 2015
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Trilarion: I'm happy with an integrity check which I can turn on or off and which is not required. Is this really naive? I highly doubt it.
Again, think of software that must write a very specific sequence of bits on your HDD/BIOS to update it (whether for security reasons or usability ones). If one bit is off, your HDD/Motherboard will be bricked. Would you as the provider of said software allow it to run without double and triple checking that the integrity is correct, or would you have self validate, and refuse to run if validation fails?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionWhat game will *never* be released on GOG.com(167 posts)(167 posts)
(167 posts)